There are some grey-import Japanese 97-99 Priuses in the country; I'd avoid these. Performance is poor, and I wouldn't trust the 1st generation batteries. You can spot them by their black bumpers and no rear spoiler. Not to mention and all the dash buttons and computer displays being in Japanese.
Then you have proper UK 2000-2003 Priuses. I think they're ugly, but they work - almost as well as the current ones. Not as fast, and a saloon instead of a hatchback. Looking on autotrader, there are a couple for £6000-£7500. The very earliest ones predate CO2-based VED, so you won't get cheap tax discs with them. They've got a 5-year 60,000 mile warranty.
If you want a 2004+ (hatchback) Prius, you're starting at £12000. These are far more common - they're selling at at least 3 times the rate of the old design, so there are more used ones available. These have a standard 3-year 60,000 mile warranty, but 8-year/100,000 miles for the battery and other hybrid components.
Replacement battery packs (new) are something like £2000-£3000. But you're likely to be able to obtain salvaged ones fairly easily (at least for the more common later models) - the battery's not going to be damaged in the majority of write-off accidents.
There are some very high-mileage Prius taxis out there that haven't had any battery problems. Toyota claim that the battery is expected to last "the life of the car". They're not really a consumable, any more than an engine or a gearbox. Like any other component, it will go eventually. But it'll probably be a progressive fade rather than a sudden failure.
Oh, and DIY is possible. Service manuals are downloadable, and the system (from a servicing point of view) isn't much more complex than a typical modern ECU-controlled non-hybrid car.
The exception is the "hybrid transaxle" - the block containing the two electric motors and power-split device, which replaces the gearbox. This is a single, non-serviceable unit.
Oh, and don't believe everything in that Sunday Times article about economy. The author wasn't bothering to convert from US to UK gallons, so you should add 20% to many of his figures. I'm averaging 50mpg or so, and that's with hardly any out-of-town driving.
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I think it's the out of town driving which screws the economy. Someone did a Lands End to John O Groats test and only managed mid 30s mpg. I'd expect 50 round town when the petrol engine is hardly being used.
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No, that's not right. Powering along the motorway at 90 won't be that brilliant, but at 70, you will comfortably do 55mpg.
The Prius does get its biggest advantage over normal cars in town, where it can run on electric half the time, and use regenerative braking; but in absolute terms, it's still better cruising. I reckon about 50mph cruise is best. All that stopping and starting in town wastes energy.
Also, short trips are a mpg killer, especially in the cold as it has to run the engine just to generate cabin heat.
If you spend all your time in town, the battery charge will hover around the middle and it will run the engine about half the time - all the energy has to ultimately come from burning petrol. You can only run for a long period on electric if you've got enough charge built up (from a high speed run, say, or if the engine's been running to warm the cabin up).
It's not really an electric car; the battery capacity is pretty small - to preserve the life of the battery it only uses 40% of it at most (and usually about 20%). Max electric range (if already warmed up) is probably 2 miles. The electric system is more to function as a buffer - to run the engine more efficiently, and allow it to be shut down when not needed. The engine can cycle on and off very rapidly. It might come on for just a few seconds to give an acceleration boost, then go straight off again.
Where was this Lands End - John O'Groats test? To do that with under 40mpg they must have been driving like a complete nutter, or had the handbrake on. 4Car did it managing 68.3mpg (albeit on a deliberate economy run, so going fairly sedately).
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corolla diesel surely makes more sense?
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You are not getting it. Hybrids are about saving the planet, not about making sense, so don't try to make sense of them.
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You are not getting it. Hybrids are about saving the planet, not about making sense, so don't try to make sense of them.
If they were about saving the planet why do they use almost as much fuel as my, much larger, Honda Accord Tourer (50 MPG) and a lot more than a straight diesel A2 (70-80 mpg)! And neither of these have large amounts of high concentration of poisonous heavy metals in them (read the disposal instructions on your mobile phone battery and then think about one that ways much much more).
They are about POLITICS.
For those who think they are saving the planet they should use public transport - it is running anyway!!
In reality by saving the planet you mean making fossil fuel run longer - Mankind cannot do anything which will destroy the planet, we can just destroy most of the life on its surface, in a few million years the Earth will still be here but we won't be!
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This forum desperately needs Emoticons.
My comment was tongue in cheek, so no I don't think Hybrids will actually save the planet...assuming of course that the planet, which was here before and will be here long after human beings cease to populate it, actually needs us to save it.
When its had enough of us it will shed us from its surface much like it did with the Dinosoars and will do so for the next life forms that replace us.
Fire up those V8s!!! 8-)
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Ian, slightly off topic, but did you get 50 mpg from the start with your Accord? I'm getting a steady 40 mpg in mine at the moment. Although it goes FAR better when I use BP Ultimate or the like, it doesn't seem to make much difference to fuel economy.
Gord.
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Gordon
First couple of fills were low while I was investigating the performance but third tankfull was over 50! Worst is 44 (fully loaded at 85) and best is 55 (672 miles on the trip on 55.2 litres). All this on (mostly) Sainsbury's diesel - it is cheap, a reward card you get 1% back and the credit card gives me another 1/2%. Will have to try Ultimate and see how it goes.
I have the first Diesel Tourer I saw (Registered 3 March 04) and it is an exec so one of the heavier ones. Tend to run the tyres 2-3 psi above Honda's recommendation. Well run in as it is approaching 65k.
It is a company car, our Fleet Manager bought a saloon shortly after I got mine and he is getting just over 40, but his is only just run in with 12k on it.
If you look at the archive you will find lots of people had similar complaints about the Mondeo 2 1/2 years ago and this was one of the reasons I didn't get one (That and the cream clock). Wonder if Mondeo's are better now?
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Hmm, thanks for the feedback. I've now done 6k miles in 2 months, worst tank has been 37, best 50 on the nose (3rd tank) but all the rest have been 39-43. Irritating given the number of miles I'm doing, but on the other hand it's so nice to drive it's almost worth it.
I like the idea of the rewards, but the Ultimate diesel does seem to *transform* the car (I've been trying 2 tanks of each to make sure I'm not imagining it).
G
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If you really want to compare it to the Honda Accord Tourer...
Firstly, the Prius is an automatic. I don't see an automatic diesel in the Honda Accord range, so that immediately would have ruled it out (at least in my case).
Secondly, you're talking about diesel, which is about 3-4% more expensive than petrol. So let's call your efficiency 48mpg before you start comparing with a petrol car.
Thirdly, being a diesel, the Accord is significantly noisier and dirtier. It even runs the engine while stationary(!) How stone-age is that?
Fourthly, you're presumably doing lots of motorway work. I'd agree that the Prius has less advantage there - but it'd hugely beat the Accord on more urban work (which is what I tend to do). Even so, I wouldn't be surprised to see an average of somewhere between 55-60mpg with that sort of driving. So it might be 20-25% better.
Fifthly, you're wrong about heavy metals. The battery is NiMH, not NiCd. And Toyota has special recycling facility in place anyway - there's a 200 quid deposit on the battery; they're worth at least that much as scrap for all the nickel etc in them. No more environmentally damaging than all the steel/aluminium/plastic in the rest of the car.
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If this hybrid technology is so good then why don't the commercial vehicles use it? Or perhaps its more suited to the public image concerns ?
I'm surprised the diesel electric truck / van hasn't appeared yet, but it obviously isn't that viable economically.
Will it ever be ? Personally, I can't see a petrol-electric hybrid ever being viable.
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It's coming in on buses. Quite a few "series" hybrids are entering service (there was an article about 4 being introduced on London route 360 on Working Lunch a few days ago). These use a small diesel engine (1.9-litre in this particular case), hooked up to a generator feeding a battery. The drive is then totally electric from the batteries. Much quieter and cleaner.
I think you'll see more hybrid taxis around soon too - a few firms are doing this (and making a big PR thing out of it - see www.greentomatocars.com/). We'll have to see whether the economics are worth it for your average taxi driver.
It's also quite possible that emissions legislation in London will compel (or at least strongly incentivise) buses and cabs to move to hybrid systems. The air quality in London's a big problem. Hybrids have a bigger impact on air quality than they do on efficiency.
There's no real point on trucks/vans that are doing mainly motorway work. They're already pretty much as efficient as they can be - they've not got much excess power, and they spend most of their life cruising at constant speed. A hybrid system can't really help there.
It's still an emerging technology. It hasn't got the sort of economies of scale that conventional vehicles have, so hybrids often won't be as cheap as a conventional car.
The Prius itself is expensive, but not massively so. Being more specific - it fits into the Toyota range between the Corolla and Avensis. Looking at a close spec fit:
Toyota Corolla 1.6 petrol T3 auto hatch: £14500
Toyota Prius 1.5 hybrid T3 auto hatch: £17795
Toyota Avensis 1.8 petrol T3-S auto hatch: £17400
If you regard the Prius as half way between, it would conventionally cost £15950. So that's a 12% premium. For quite a lot of extra efficiency.
If you want to compare with a diesel, and you ignore the fact that the Prius is an auto (which I think is unfair, but others apparently don't):
Toyota Corolla 1.4 diesel T3 manual hatch: £14220
Toyota Prius 1.5 hybrid T3 auto hatch: £17795
Toyota Avensis 2.0 diesel T3-S manual hatch: £17145
I make that a 13% premium over the mid-point of £15682.
A 13% premium isn't that much. It probably makes at least as much economic sense as, say, a BMW 1-series. (Doesn't that go up to above £20000?). Obviously aimed at a different customer base though.
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Actually, thinking about that last example, an automatic gearbox on a Corolla or Avensis petrol costs £1000. So if we include that, then a hypothetical diesel auto Prius should cost £16682, so it's a 7% premium. Peanuts.
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I remember reading on the MAN website a few years back about a bus that had capacitors on the roof to provide 'high current, short term storage'. The idea being the capacitors would charge up as the bus slows to a stop and then these would supply the electric motor to get it back up to a reasonable speed again at which point the engine would cut back in. This seemed a good idea as people who had just got off the bus wouldn't be left standing in a cloud of highly polluted air like you get when a normal bus nails it after a stop.
I can't find it on their site now but did come across this
www.busride.com/2005/09/A_breakthrough_in_hybrid_e...p
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That would make sense. One of the problems with batteries is that you just can't charge them that fast - they're 'low/medium current, long-term storage'. The maximum charging rate of the Prius's batteries is something like 20 kilowatts. Sounds like a lot, but typical braking could potentially generate a lot more than that.
People are looking at adding supercapacitors that can capture more of those bursts of power from braking, and then more slowly release it into the battery pack (and/or spit release the power straight into the motor).
All sorts of other variations on the idea are being tried, including hydraulic hybrids (you pressurise some fluid during braking), and flywheel hybrids.
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If you really want to compare it to the Honda Accord Tourer...
Not really but that is what I am driving at the moment and the difference in size and usabilty is huge for little loss in efficiency.
The argument over cost of diesel does not stack up - it is tax that makes the difference, not manufacturing cost. We have a Treasury which regards diesel as tax avoidance (more economical) and disregards the lower carbon emissions because they burn less fuel per mile - and isn't carbon emission one of the things the government is supposed to be reducing???????
You should be comparing it with an Audi A2 1.2 (Not imported into the UK but 80mpg plus, auto gearbox, facility to turn it off at traffic lights (it is called an ignition switch), etc.
Prius cannot compete on efficiency with internal combustion technology - it only wins becuase in some situations it is cleaner (when engine not running)
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Audi A2? That's an even more ridiculous comparison. The Prius is nearly the size of an Audi A4. Hey, why don't you compare it to a moped? I bet that gets better mpg. Can I compare it to a Land Rover?
And if it's not available in this country, why even bring it up? Here in the real world, I had to choose between cars and fuels I can actually buy, rather than hypothetical ones. And don't be daft about manually turning it off at lights.
The reason the government taxes diesel more is because of the pollution. They're a huge problem in towns. In recent years all sorts of air quality gains in cities have been reversed because of the steeply climbing percentage of diesels on the roads. And you do get recognition of the lower CO2 - you're likely to get lower company car tax and VED. There's just a fixed surcharge for the pollution.
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You ever been in an A2 - probably more room in the back than there is in an A4! (SWMBO runs a 1.4). As good as the Prius since there is no space wasted on the battery.
Power to weight ration almost identical to the old model 1.9TDI A6!
In most peoples view the Prius and similar cars are a waste of time environmentally - that is why they have not been selling in big numbers (EVEN with grants and tax concessions!!!)
The batteries are not econimically recyclable - That is why TOYOTA are having to set up re-cycling plants as the recycling inductry cannot make money doing it - if they could they would be doing it.
And what is so daft about turning the engine off at lights? In doing it I am helping the planet and my pocket without harming anyone else and without creating a re-cycling problem. Didn't the old Formel E Golf do it automatically?
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