Like Nsar says, do you want to be different or conform?
Scooby ownership - you either get it, or you don't.
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I have driven a Merc for 18 months and have run a Forester for over a year. The Merc had many good features (superb turning circle, speed limiter, quality construction and interior materials), but it was let down by minor faults (e.g. faulty battery, leaking PWS combined pump and reservoir, badly fitting glove box lid).
The Forester has been supremely reliable with no defects at all. It is let down by steering lacking in feel and an autobox that isn't as good as the Merc's and has poor ratios.
They are different cars, with different styles. I like both and love my MiL's E320CDi, but there is something nice about driving a car which you don't see every day.
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Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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As someone who has owned, worked on, bought and sold many Mercedes over the past 25+ years (and a few BM's) I have to say that I really really like Mercs, but I think they have lost their way a little lately.
Subaru, on the other hand, have come good and the latest Legacy is an excellent car. I have worked on a few Scoobies (Imprezas, naturally) and have to say that they are brilliantly engineered cars. OK, so they look a little odd and lots of folks find the older model's interior a bit downmarket, but as an engineer I can't fault their design or construction.
The latest Legacies are highly desirable IMHO. I have driven both a 2.0 and a 2.5 (the 2.0 quite extensively) and once you get used to the car you really learn to appreciate the great roadholding, ride and handling. The cars have tremedous grip and are notable for holding a line on a bumpy corner that would have a C-class twitching. In terms of value for money its a 'no-brainer', the Scooby wins easily. Obviously if you are worried about 'the Jones's' then it has to be a Merc or BM.
Next time I come to buy a car for my own personal use it will probably be a Scooby.
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My impression is that they're pretty heavy on fuel (even vs other similar petrol cars) and that there's no diesel. So they're not really suited for high mileage users, unless they have deep pockets. Would that be valid?
Also, notice comments about value, but what are their residuals like compared to BMW & Merc? Lesser known cars can be pretty tough to sell when they're a few yrs old as the potential market is very limited.
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My impression is that they're pretty heavy on fuel (even vs other similar petrol cars) and that there's no diesel. So they're not really suited for high mileage users, unless they have deep pockets. Would that be valid? Also, notice comments about value, but what are their residuals like compared to BMW & Merc? Lesser known cars can be pretty tough to sell when they're a few yrs old as the potential market is very limited.
Think about it this way. Motorpoint recently had some brand new Legacy 2.0RE for £11k. A C-class or a 320 is going to cost double that+. The difference buys a lot of fuel and makes depreciation less of an issue IMHO.
Subarus are good. The Legacy has just won a safety 'gold medal' in the US IIHS crash tests (Audi A4 and new Passat were awarded silver) and I note that in the German TUV reliability report 2006 (just out on the newsstands in Germany) the number one most reliable car in Germany at three years old is the Forrester. The Legacy is in at number 7.
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in theGerman TUV reliability report 2006 (just out on the newsstands in Germany) the number one most reliable car in Germany at three years old is the Forrester. The Legacy is in at number 7.
Sounds like an interesting report. Is there an easy way of finding out more?
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Here´s a link to a shortened version of the report - the tables show the 5 best cars for faults, grouped according to age. Pretty useful. Scroll down the page a wee bit for the tables.
snipurl.com/muw1
Good luck with the German..!
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Thanks barchettaman
My German was good enough for the tables - I skipped the rest!
Next question is - how about the cars that didn't make the top 5?
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Thanks barchettaman My German was good enough for the tables - I skipped the rest! Next question is - how about the cars that didn't make the top 5?
You have to read the magazine to see the rest. Italian and French cars do badly.....
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I think I remember the lack of a diesel option in the Subaru range being discussed before. The now dead-in-the-water "Saaburu" platform-sharing proposal seemed to have been a petrol-only prospect, at least partly due to the Subaru engine bay being unable to take the GM/Fiat 1.9 diesel fitted in the Saab 9-3 - am I remembering correctly?
I wonder what the prospects would be of Subaru doing a Honda and producing their own in-house diesel to rival the best of the competition. In any case, if they do decide to start visiting the black pumps, I'd say it'll be a few years yet before they have anything on the market, even if they use someone else's engine. Pity, I'd definitely be interested!
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andymc
Vroom, vroom - mmm, doughnuts ...
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As far as I recall, Subaru have ruled out putting a diesel in the current Legacy because it is impossible to fit one in the engine bay - one of the resons it handles so well is that the boxer engines have such a low centre of gravity (thus the low bonnet line).
But they are apparently developing a boxer diesel for the next generation (2007-2008). A quick google reveals this:
"Fuji Heavy President Kyoji Takenaka said it hoped to raise its European auto sales to 100,000 units by 2010, from about 64,000 forecast for 2006, with the introduction of cars mounted with its first diesel engine, which is under development.
"I believe diesel engines will play a big role in the expansion," he said. "Technology-wise, we will likely be able to introduce a high-performance, horizontally opposed diesel engine in 2007 or '08 to achieve the goal of 100,000 units in Europe.""
All of which will make every country vet I know very happy indeed.
Davros
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Ah, it wasn't just the 1.9 diesel then. Hope they manage to bring it out by 2007 - I may not be a country vet, but I do have to travel on a lot of country roads, something which may be set to increase with changing work requirements. Of course, I also hope they'll warrant it for using biodiesel, but chance would be a fine thing!
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andymc
Vroom, vroom - mmm, doughnuts ...
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Sounds like an interesting report. Is there an easy way of finding out more?
Its in all the paper shops in Germany - costs a few quid. It has detailled tables of all the faults (with % of cars of each model type affected).
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Its in all the paper shops in Germany -
Paper shops in Germany? The chances of me making it to the cosmopolitan metropolis of Inverness in the next couple of weeks are slim enough!
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The Subaru dealer gets round the diesel ´problem´by selling a large proportion of its new cars with LPG conversions - it is also the most convenient LPG garage near the town, so does quite nicely with other makes filling up there. Normally a queue of Polish registered LPG cars waiting to get their Flüsiggas.
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In general a car lasts well if you look after it, they respond well to TLC.
I don't know much about quality of the interior of Mercs. and BMWs, but I remember the material pulling out behind the rear seat on my Volvo 440 at 3 months. There was not enough material to tuck in properly.
I'm not much for leather seats, anyhow. I have them in my Wolseley, and remember the sweat streaming down my back. I prefer fabric.
I didn't have any such problems with my first Legacy, Y reg. Except for the rubber window seal on the rear nearside door edge continually coming adrift, and it was difficult to re-attach. Then again, the clutch failed very badly at 17 000 miles, and bust the left foot of every pair of shoes I had until I bought a special pair of heavy walking brogues. I had a left leg like Arnold Swartzenegar. My present one is an auto, no more busted shoe soles, but that rubber trim still comes out.
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The only reason I got rid of my Forester was the relatively poor fuel economy. It was a brilliant drive, very comfy and so well put together. A lot of people say it has "5 pint styling" but I thought it was quite handsome (maybe it was the 5 pints I had when I got it!)
Carpets were a bit thin compared to a Merc' or a BMW, that's the only fault I could find really.
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The reason that I like the Subarus so much is that I am fairly familiar with the undersides of Mercs, BM's and Subarus. The Subarus are obviously designed by engineers. All of the components are good quality, fit together properly and come apart properly when you want them to - there is no corner cutting.
The Suby falt-four has been in production for many years (in various guises) and has been refined to the point where it is an excellent powerplant.
Unfortunately one sees a lot of rubbish written in the motoring press. One of the popular 'price guides' says that Subys need their driveshafts changing every 60k ??? What a load of rubbish - where on Earth did that come from?
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Coincidentally, this week I have had to relinquish my tour of the Northern motorways and pop down from Leeds to The Lizard and back twice. My fuel consumption overall for my Outback was 26.66 MPG over 1725 miles which I thought was rather good for a 3 litre petrol engine. I must say that the run down the M5/A30 is a very soothing ride after the M62 etc. After 13 months with this car I would'nt change to another make although I will certainly consider a Sooby diesel if one is available in about a year. The mechanicals of this car seem to be unbreakable after 54K miles and totally without any problems. I'm a convert. However I have never driven a BMW and only a MB for a few weeks; after which the ventilation system packed up.
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There is no question that Scooby`s are extremely reliable and individualistic, the one thing that does deter me though is the very high fuel consumption, but then if there are few machanical repairs, you can offset the fuel costs.!!!!
Just to compare fuel costs, my son runs a late BMW E39 530i Sport manual, which on a similar journey would have covered 34 mpg and thankfully after 50k miles, the car is running superbly with no mechanical problems whatsoever to date.
If Suburu do ever bring out a diesel Legacy, then I would definitely consider one on my shortlist.
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Just to compare fuel costs, my son runs a late BMW E39 530i Sport manual, which on a similar journey would have covered 34 mpg and thankfully after 50k miles, the car is running superbly with no mechanical problems whatsoever to date.
Your son is a very law abiding driver.
Having owned a manual 530i, I know that spirited driving drives that figure to 28mpg or lower.
It is very notable that people never compare 'overall ownership costs', but frequently compare 'consumption' costs. I suppose it is very easy. Most owners do not appreciate the fact that depreciation is the biggest expense for all car owners, owning cars less than 4 years old and doing less than 10k miles a year.
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Having switched from a 2.8 V6 Audi estate to a 2.5 Legacy I can assure you that thirst is relative term! On a trip from Abergavenny to Manchester last week my trip computer went from 29mpg to about 33. In the Audi it would have gone from 23 to about 26.
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Yes, its amusing when people buy a £25k car and start talking about 5mpg differences between vehicles. That kind of difference (unless you are driving massive distances in a year) is but a small fraction of overall ownership costs.
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When running a MY99 Outback in Oz, I usually got around 25mpg around town and up and down the mountain (30km commute) but nearer 34mpg on long trips. This was on a car set up for 91RON unleaded and prior to the current more economical model.
We seriously considered the latest Subaru Legacy last October....fuel economy was important but not the major worry, there is also residual value and the UK Subarus do not seem to do very well on this score. Possibly because the only nearly new ones available are ex company or ex demo cars. Most privately owned cars stay with the owner for a long time. The residual on our Oz car was something like 55% after almost 3 years.
StarGazer
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Thallium
I was very interested in an Outback 3.0 about 18 months ago.The dealer frightened me off by boasting he got 16 mpg from the 3.0 Legact sports tourer demo car! He probably drove it like a madman as neither his car nor petrol.
What do you get routinely from your Outback. I get 24 to 27 from my Nissan X-Trail - occassionally 30 on a run. If your Outback isn't much worse than this I might reconsider Subaru as an option. I've had enough of the poor dynamics of SUV's
Anyone else with mpg experience of Subaru 2.5 and 3.0 Legacy's real-world mpg - your advice would be much appreciated.
HectorG
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"The reason that I like the Subarus so much is that I am fairly familiar with the undersides of Mercs, BM's and Subarus. The Subarus are obviously designed by engineers".
When I was learning to repair my own cars in Zambia I had to do a lot of underside work because of the bad state of the roads. I was at the Ndola trade fair, where they had a section full of new cars, you can imagine how many years ago that was. To get a little ahead I was slid underneath one to see how they had achieved something or other, and heard the national anthem play. To move during the national anthem was anathema, so I lay still, hoping that no-one would notice my feet sticking out. When I finally wriggled out I found that I was next to a group including President Kaunda. Not my day at all !
For interest, the overall fuel consumption of my Legacy 2.0 auto estate up to mid last year was 29.5 mpg, mostly in suburban traffic. I must get up-to-date with the spreadsheet.
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"Anyone else with mpg experience of Subaru 2.5 and 3.0 Legacy's real-world mpg - your advice would be much appreciated..."
OK. I have an '04 2.5 Legacy auto wagon and I have averaged a fraction under 30mpg over my 7,000-odd miles of ownership (purchased with 14k on the clock).
The majority of these miles have been on nasty Norfolk A/B and worse roads that are not condusive to economic driving.
Best figures: 33 mpg on a Norfolk - Reading run. Worst is around 26 mpg on short runs around local lanes. I'm no hooligan, but I don't like to hang around, either.
The manual is rather better - the autobox doesn't do the Legacy any favours, sadly.
The 3-litre - and especially the Spec-B (which is an absolute riot to drive, BTW), can be quite thirsty. 22-25 mpg ish on the twisties and lucky to hit 30 on a steady run (according to a heavy-footed friend with a Spec-B. But as he says, a Spec-B is Porsche-quick AND you can put the dog in the back, so you only need one car!) Others may do better than this on the 3-litres.
Davros
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Subaru all the way for me.
My mondeo is up for replacement next year and after reading the positve feedback plus the experience of my freinds and having had a drive in both the forester and legacy I will be giving the Saubaru mark seriouse consideration.
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Real world mpg for our 04 Outback 2.5 Auto SE is :
24-26mpg when used by my wife for work, car never warms up, goes about 3 miles across town and back - not ideal car for this. (note : this same driver also struggles to get 40mpg from our Fabia VRs - which may tell you something about the driver rather than the car .....)
32-34mpg on 20 mile commute if I use it.
now wait for this one ......
38mpg on long steady runs. I've recorded this several times now, particularly when traffic has been quite heavy and speed is fairly constant 60-70mph.
I'm with some of the comments above that the fixation with mpg clouds some of the ownership cost issues, but then I suppose it is the one thing you can really compare on a day-to-day basis, It tickles me when people go an about "Oooh, it must be expensive servicing, insuring and running that Subaru....".
Well, lets see :
Insurance - group 13e (no more than similar price-range cars)
Servicing - just paid £180 all-in for 20,000 miler - does this compare with BM. Mercs ?
Consumption - as above, not bad for a 2.5 auto estate with AWD
Repairs, days off the road etc. - NONE, zilch (and this covers my ownership of seven different Subaru...)
Hassle from problems, niggles and rattles - NONE, zilch (and this covers .....)
I haven't included depreciation because these are cars that you generally keep for some time and then usually trade in for another Subaru.
For the guy that mentions changing his X-Trail, I say 'do it'. We had an X-Trail that drove me mad with it's lousy dynamics - also nothing to shout about mpg wise (and that was the diesel)- so when the new Legacy/Outback was launched it was a easy choice......
jdc
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Hi JDC, who did your service, Robinsons?
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Nsar
There is an Subaru authorised service agent in Heaton Mersey. They specialise in rally Scoobyies, but know ther way around all boxers and 4WD.
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Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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f.y.i., gareth, the Subaru dealer you mentioned in Ashton-in-Makerfield is in administration. They have lost the Skoda dealership, and when I called in for parts yesterday, despite still having MB, Subaru and Brabus and TVR signposting, the showroom was almost exclusively full of TVR's
Go on, get out of the car...
www.mikes-walks.co.uk
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Thanks Mike, I'll go elsewhere for the next service then.
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Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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Nigel
Yes, it was Robinsons.
Hope you are enjoying your Legacy
jdc
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HectorG, apologies for the delay in replying. In every day motoring my fuel consumption is around 24/25 MPG. My driving typically consists of a couple of hours motorway followed by an hour in city back streets finding obscure technical/ engineering works. My annual mileage is about 50,000 but will probably decrease after 2007. I service the car strictly in accordance with the manufacturer's schedule and I use bog standard mineral 10/40 lub oil. Hope that answers your question. BTW the car is the 'new' model 3.0 litre Outback, it's built like a brick outhouse.
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I only ask as I paid £250 with parts and VAT for a full service las week - 20k miles.
The car is going fine thanks - in fact I discovered a way to turn it into a 3.0 B Spec yesterday. What you do is arrange an important business meeting that requires you to catch a plane from an airport about an hour's drive away. Then all you have to is oversleep by about 40 minutes and amazingly it turns out that in actual fact you can do the journey in about 35 minutes.
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Sorry, price was 180 + VAT. I claim my vat back anyway so I tend to ignore VAT as an actual cost.
So not much difference then really, I dont get through many parts as the mileage we put on the Outback is minimal - usually to Fairfield and back a few times a week plus a weekend trip ro rugby and that's it. I use the Fabia VRs for my main weekly mleage.
Glad you're enjoying the Legacy ....
jdc
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Real world consumption - 05 Leggy Tourer - 2.5
32mpg average over 15,000 miles - does include a lot of motorway. Round town and when pressing on x-country - 25-28. If I take it easy on a motorway, 35-37.
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It is great to see some feedback on Subarus, a marque I hold in high regard, and would like to hear some mpg figures from any owners of the new 163 bhp 2 litre Legacy.
For whatever reason, Subaru is still a relatively unknown quantity here in the U.K., but IMHO truly merits a larger market share. I for one, get bored by the constant reference to the Ford Mondeo on this forum (I acknowledge however that they are a very capable car with much improved reliability), but a vehicle I would never buy.
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Lack of diesel and poor economy is a problem for Subarus v/s BMW & Merc.
We recently drove to Switzerland in our Merc E320CDI with our in-laws in convoy in their Forester. I don't know the difference in the fuel tank sizes but I do know that they had to refuel twice as frequently as us. Pretty poor when comparing their fairly light 2-litre 4-cylinder car with our heavy 6-cylinder diesel.
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