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what is happening to UK armed forces? - bedfordrl
A while ago i passed four large transporter lorries each with a tank on heading south down the A3,all four lorries were from a private haulage firm from Southampton.
In Petersfield there is a Vehicle repair garage where the Army seem to take their lorries and LandRovers to be repaired and serviced, as the REME repair shops are now depots for car storage, this to is a private garage not army.
Yesterday there was a large white transporter dropping off a Land Rover and i asked the driver ,who was RAF, "where are your own lorries" ie Scammels/Oshcosh'es?,he told me there are hardly any left and they now rely on private firms for hire .
My question is what would happen if god forbid we went to war again ?,"sorry mate we are fully booked next week".
Only a fool would think that it could not happen again,i seem to remember that that was the opinion just before the second world war and that was why we had such poor equipment ,in fact the fact we had to leave so much behind after Dunkirk was a blessing as we were forced to start afresh and the Bedford QL appeared and the Matatdor.
Maybe not totally appropriate to this forum ,but concerns you nethertheless.
what is happening to UK armed forces? - Garethj
Cool, do Hertz rent out tanks?
what is happening to UK armed forces? - Xileno {P}
Government is going through a process of outsourcing anything it can as it's allegedly cheaper. However, these things tend to turn full circle, in a few years they will decide it's been a bad move and bring it all 'in house' again.

Look West Mr Blair, see what's happening in the USA.
what is happening to UK armed forces? - No FM2R
An outsourced service is 30% more expensive than doing it properly yourself. The issue is whether or not you are willing and/or able to put the skill, time and effort into doing something properly. Frequently people are not and outsource it as being an easier option.

Since the outsourcer now hs to do it for less money [your savings] and still make a profit, he needs to cut stuff out. In a typical IT group, for example, approximately 40% of their work will not be documented, understood or perceived as a valuable and/or independent service.

Post outsourcing you will be hurt by that 40% no longer being done and will now decide between not having it done (perceived by others as a degradation of service) or paying extra for it to be done (perceived by others as an increase in costs).

Outsourcing is a skill. Many people believe they have the requisite skills, a very few actually do.

However, it does achieve some things - it is easier to do, it is easier to hide the problems or at least blame someone else, and it beats trying and failing to resolve the issues in house, and it looks like you're doing something.

It is, nonetheless, a poor substitute for understanding and controlling your costs.
what is happening to our armed forces? - netlang
A multinational technology client couldn?t resist the rates offered by one agency for translating work into German. The problem was that the translations were being completed in India by 'translators' who were not German.

The regional office only saw the printed brochures at the product launch and pointed out to the head-office that they not only lacked proper German characters, but that most of the content made little or no sense at all. Everything had to be retranslated, reset and reprinted.

So, what was the price of this botched translation? Just short of £50,000 for an initial saving of around £200 by going to India.

Hopefully, buyers will soon learn from their mistakes and come back to proper professional companies
what is happening to our armed forces? - L'escargot
An outsourced service is 30% more expensive than doing it properly
yourself.


It relieves your company of the liability of redundancy payments etc when times are hard and business is slack.
--
L\'escargot.
what is happening to our armed forces? - Malcolm_L
Please don't Mr. Blair, you'll probably decide that to keep the cost of wine stable, invading France would be a good idea.

On second thoughts - look west and spare a few hectares of Burgundy would you?
what is happening to our armed forces? - Roly93
Government is going through a process of outsourcing anything it can
as it's allegedly cheaper. However, these things tend to turn full
circle, in a few years they will decide it's been a
bad move and bring it all 'in house' again.
Look West Mr Blair, see what's happening in the USA.

I work for a multinatinal company that would outsource its granny if it could, and I have to say that I'm vehemently opposed to the principle of outsourcing in almost any respect, hence problems with hospital cleaners etc etc. In fact I cannot understand whay we haven't learned our lesson yet in the UK.
Basically, how can it be cheaper to pay someone else to do the SAME job and make a margin on the business also. I would respect the government a lot more if they scrapped outsourcing and just made sure that civil and public servants just did what they were supposed to do efficiently !
what is happening to our armed forces? - Dynamic Dave
Less politics, more motoring please.

DD.
what is happening to our armed forces? - No FM2R
>>Basically, how can it be cheaper to pay someone else to do the SAME job and make a margin on the business also

IF you're really interested then ask that in the IHAQ thread and I'll try and answer it. But I have a feeling Dave might jump up and down on me if I tried in this thread.
what is happening to our armed forces? - Altea Ego
If the Russions decided to invade Europe.

How would all our armed forces get to the plains of Germany? With the kit? (ok there is already some "pre postioned" according to the defence plan but not all of it)

Thy requisition British Airways and all the ferry companies. Its all in the threat plan. Haulage companies are also in the "requsitioned" list.
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
what is happening to our armed forces? - Vansboy
Much of the transportation of vehicles, has indeed, been contracted out & yes, the tanks are actually on lease contract, too!!

All working to budgets, within their own departments, no doubt.

The end of life vehicles, were being auctioned, as a seperate section, within British Car Auctions, from Lex Leasing.

Wonder if they apply a surcharge, for not returning the kit, in a 'reasonable' condition - too many bullet holes??

VB
what is happening to our armed forces? - daveyjp
Our IT has just been outsourced. 6 months ago a fully working top spec PC from one of three shortlisted companies with all relevant software, large LCD monitor and DVD rewriter, three year on site maintenance etc was on the desk for about £650.

New IT contract has one supplier and a new PC without DVD rewriter and only a small screen costs £1200! This excludes software and a non negotiable £100 a year maintenance charge per year! Needless to say the one who made this money saving decision has since left.
what is happening to our armed forces? - Chicken Madras
The company I'm working for at the moment outsourced IT to IBM about five years ago. It's now back in-house. Lots of people "did all right" out of it. A complete waste of money it was. Users had to ring a help desk in Glasgow who would then ring the person down the corridor to go and fix their PC. Crazy.
what is happening to our armed forces? - daveyjp
This is interesting reading - guess who has our contract! We have to ring a desk in Birmingham. I rang through that my PC was really slow - nothing happened. I then get a call yesterday from a colleague in another building, he used to sit in the next office and be our on site IT person, saying he has noticed my machine has a virus on it which was making it carry out loads of processes it shouldn't be doing! Asked him if it had come through helpdesk and it hadn't.
what is happening to our armed forces? - mare
My question is what would happen if god forbid we went
to war again ?,"sorry mate we are fully booked next week".


Like TVM wrote, HMG would requsition what it needed, whether civilan planes, trucks or buildings.
what is happening to our armed forces? - Hamsafar
The government is run by big business hands anyway, so why is it a surprise that they use companies for such things?
An EU law was passed yesterday forcing members to make laws to have our children educated by private providers for their own profit and most other municipal services will be done for a profit soon.
what is happening to our armed forces? - klystron
It seems like the new Challenger II tank transporting needs have well and truly been outsourced. It would appear that the Oshkosh HET's are civilan owned and even driven by 'civilians in uniform' as sponsered reserves.

See this link (.pdf document)

tinyurl.com/c3qw6
what is happening to our armed forces? - school boy
Man have jus won a multimillion pound contract for general pupose trucks as have Oshkosh for tankers.
what is happening to our armed forces? - school boy
www.milweb.net/dealers/categories/light.html
This is where a load of the stuff is for sale.
especially www.witham-sv.com and www.ljacksonandco.com/
what is happening to our armed forces? - Mapmaker
Do you not remember the Falklands War? Roro ferries & cruise liners requisitioned left right & centre.

During WW1 and WW2, horses were requisitioned. You could buy a Spitfire for our boys to use.

what is happening to our armed forces? - Cardew
You have touched on a controversy that has raged in the army, and REME in particular, for years.

When the army deploys on operations, vehicles and equipment have an adequate repair organisation; although the spares situation is woefully inadequate in many cases. It is a matter of public record that to keep Main Battle tanks serviceable during the first Gulf War most of the fleet left in Germany was incapable of operating.

The drastic change has occurred with the repair of vehicles in UK.

Virtually all Staff cars are rented from civilian car rental firms.

The majority of small REME repair organisations in static units have been closed and many of the vehicles go to civilian workshops for 'contract repair'. There is simply not the manpower or spares in most units to repair vehicles.

As stated above this outsourcing of work costs a fortune. If you think the average garage will rip off a private punter; think what they will do if the vehicle belongs to HM Government.

Will it go full circle and return to in-house repair? I doubt it; its too late. The workforce has been made redundant, real estate sold off . Nobody wins recognition these days in the Army, or any Government organisation, for an argument that entails large expenditure on manpower and resources that will not see a return for several years.
what is happening to our armed forces? - Lud
Nothing new about outsourcing. Pronounce quietly the words: 'Irregular' and 'Mercenary'. Anyone read Joseph Heller's wonderful novel Catch 22? There's a character in it called Milo Minderbinder, a real operator, who sub-contracts with the Germans to bomb his own airfield. May not have really happened (who knows?) but the war in question was WW2.
what is happening to our armed forces? - rover 75
There can't be another war,buy the time health & safety have copleted a risk assesment it would have to be cacelled.
what is happening to our armed forces? - rover 75
Apologies for my typing errors !
what is happening to our armed forces? - Red Baron
I think tht the issue needs looking at from a different perspective.

As technology advances and becomes more integrated, any repair will require specialized skills. These skills cost a lot of money. If the army has an increasing variety of vehicles for its different capabilities and duties then the skill base required to repair these multiplies rapidly. This is prohibitively expensive and it is much cheaper to contract them out.

My company has been servicing and repairing the pump and engine control units for Tornados and Harriers for decades. It is a highly specialized skill that requires expensive diagnostic equipment. We are also able to hold a pool of replacement modules and spares as we maintain said items for not just the UK air force. This allows for faster turn-around-times and is thus more effective for the customer.
what is happening to our armed forces? - Lud
Any chance you might find yourself working for both sides in some future conflict, RB?
what is happening to our armed forces? - midlifecrisis
The private firm that now trains all our helicopter pilots is threatening to go on strike over pay! RAF St Athan, the Air Forces repair center is being closed, just as a brand new million pound super hanger has been completed. We now have to rely on companies bidding for the work.

I'm ex-Navy, glad I'm not still in because we have an ex-navy!
what is happening to our armed forces? - Baskerville
Any chance you might find yourself working for both sides in
some future conflict, RB?


Funny how we keep coming back to IBM isn't it?

Incidentally Heller wasn't just commenting on WWII, but on what Noam Chomsky called the "Military Industrial Complex," an informal coalition between companies such as GM, IBM and others, and the US government, in which the government kept finding wars to fight (Korea, Vietnam) in order to keep up demand for military vehicles and weapons. The Halliburton debacle would suggest not much has changed. What's good for the syndicate is good for the country...
what is happening to our armed forces? - Cardew
I think tht the issue needs looking at from a different
perspective. As technology advances and becomes more integrated, any repair will require
specialized skills. These skills cost a lot of money.
If the army has an increasing variety of vehicles for its
different capabilities and duties then the skill base required to repair
these multiplies rapidly. This is prohibitively expensive and it is much cheaper to contract them out.


We are talking vehicles here, not sophisticated equipment.

The armed forces for many years has repaired by exchanging modules - perhaps led the way in this field. Under operational conditions there simply isn't the time to fault-find even if the test equipment were available.

One difficulty the civilian contract repair system faces is the provisioning of spares for old and unusual vehicles. Illustrated by the following simple tale:

The early - and I mean early - Land Rover based ambulances broke half-shafts with monotonous regularity; (no problem stick it in 4WD and let the front wheels do the work!) So the army bought masses of spare half-shafts.

Under the military(REME) repair system the fitters had access to these spares - and still do when they are deployed. However in UK most of the repair is now carried out by civilian firms. You would not believe the difficulty and expense involved in getting a half-shaft for a 40 year old L/Rover ambulance!

Ironically when a later model ambulance was introduced, the army were prepared and using their experience bought masses of half-shafts; however these had been uprated and were of a larger diameter and none have ever broke - the army was not made aware of the upgrade.



what is happening to our armed forces? - Lounge Lizard
The more contracting out the army does the better.

Nothing wrong with a true citizens' army.

Soon have those civvy tank-transporters painted matt olive green and transporting our tanks into battle.

Even with the Iraq war, the number of active combat troops (exposed to enemy fire) is very small portion of the armed forces manpower. Why train & equip vast numbers of rear support people to fight when all you want them to do is drive lorries or repair tanks?
what is happening to our armed forces? - Lud
Yes, and why subject them to military discipline when they are just civilians? Never mind being overrun by the enemy. It's a free country so far. Let them just do what they like, like going on strike for more pay.
what is happening to our armed forces? - Cardew
The more contracting out the army does the better.
Nothing wrong with a true citizens' army.
Soon have those civvy tank-transporters painted matt olive green and transporting
our tanks into battle.
Even with the Iraq war, the number of active combat troops
(exposed to enemy fire) is very small portion of the armed
forces manpower. Why train & equip vast numbers of rear
support people to fight when all you want them to do
is drive lorries or repair tanks?


Those who repair tanks, drive lorries etc are still in close proximity to the battle and in a dangerous environment.

What if the citizens' army decide it is hot, dusty and dangerous in Iraq etc and they don't want to go?

Even some members of the volunteer forces in UK and USA have decided their 'priorities' in life are different now they are being deployed more frequently. As have lots of the Regular forces of course.




what is happening to our armed forces? - klystron
Yes indeed Cardew. I was always told I was "a soldier first and a technician second" in my regular Army days. Those that drive the trucks and fix the tanks still get shot at, and still have to shoot back!
what is happening to our armed forces? - Armitage Shanks {p}
I was in the military for years. It was operated on a "We can do it" ethos. However, the manpower and hardware are spread so thinly it has become "We'd like to do it but we can't". Hugely expensive projects coming in late and over budget. Some stuff (Eurofighter/Typhoon) is so late that it no longer meets the current military needs. It has been in development for nearly 10 years. In WWII the USA got 2 different types of atom bombs from an idea to being dropped in about 3 years SFAIK.
what is happening to our armed forces? - Cardew
To get back on motoring lest we incur the wrath of the moderators.

The armed forces in UK had an extensive repair network for vehicles. Static units had a mainly civilian workforce and deployable units a military workforce. The scope of repair they carried out was limited - first line repair in military terminology - major work was carried out by larger military workshops.

Now very little first line repair is carried out and it is sent to civilian contractors. The impetus for this was to reduce military manpower as decreed by our political masters.

We can now have the situation where a simple fault like a blocked fuel filter(very easy to happen with trucks filled from old jerry cans) will require the vehicle to be towed to a civilian firm. Previously the unit fitter would have diagnosed and cleared the fault in minutes.

Even that would not be so bad if the civilian contractor just charged for the necessary repair. However repair of military vehicles is simply a licence to print money!
what is happening to our armed forces? - Lounge Lizard
I think we're over-stating the role of authoritarian military discipline to persuade people to help in a war-effort. Civilians will help in rear-support roles if they believe in the cause (and are paid 1000 pounds per week).

No-one doubts that it's better to have combat engineers to recover & repair tanks in a hot battle zone; but the number of such recoveries are TINY compared to the level of activity outside the battle zone.

Like all armies, the British Army has used 'Civilian Contractors' to the rear of war zones for millennia. Black-smiths, Farriers, Cooks, Prostitutes, Doctors & Nurses, Arrow-Makers...

Don't forget that the British Army is a volunteer, professional army; it's got to attract recruits in competition with the rest of the economy. I suggest that it's uneconomical to retain & pay all the staff necessary to conduct a war as full-time employees. Simply employ a core of full-time combat & battlefield support staff and contract everyone else out. When necessary use combat infantry to protect them.
what is happening to our armed forces? - Gromit {P}
To return to the original question, what would the army do for transport in a war or emergency situation? They'd either:

a) requisition the private hire fleet, as mentioned above or
b) go to the nearest main dealer's compound and requisition every brand new truck sitting in the yard.

I've heard it was a part of the Irish Army's emergency plan to visit the main importer for Hino (who is located a few miles away from Army HQ in Co. Kildare) and seize his stock of ready-to-drive-away trucks) as necessary.

In any event, going by other contracts to provide refuelling and airlift services to the RAF (not motoring, so I won't dwell on them here!) the private hire and repair companies involved will also have an obligation to provide their services in whatever situation arises.

- Gromit
what is happening to our armed forces? - Vansboy
The atractive thing,for independent hauliers, was the speed & method of payment for their services, during a conflict.

Friends of ours, father & son & 2 drivers,their own tractor units, were delivering arms, around East Anglian bases, not too long ago - present invoice at end of week - instant payment IN CASH!!

Makes a change from 'cheques in the post'!!

VB
what is happening to UK armed forces? - Dalglish
IF you're really interested then ask that in the IHAQ thread
and I'll try and answer it.

>>

no=fm2r: xileno has asked it in
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=38866&...e

i could answer it, but will wait to see your reply first! ;-)