On the contrary I prefer opinions from people who do NOT own the car in question.
People will naturally favour things they own, after all, they've just spent a lot of money on it and don't want to admit they've bought something rubbish.
So you say 'What do you think of the first gen Vauxhall Vectra' and somebody who owns one reckons its the best car ever even though he never bothered to test drive anything else, and somebody who has never owned one gives an honest account of it, whose opinion would you trust?
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I'd never owned either of the cars I suggested they buy.
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In my experience most people's 'off the cuff' opinions of the car that they own are not really worth listening to. They either think its great or its rubbish - not many people have a balanced view. A significant number of people think that anything that they buy is marvellous and the best on the market. To get meaningful information you would have to put together a very detailled questionnaire like Which? magazine use - recording quantitative data about number of faults, breakdowns etc etc - that focusses the mind a bit.
I used to know one old chap who rountinely bought brand new Skoda Estelles and would keep them a year and then buy another. He thought they were marvellous! We also had one customer back in the 1980's who must have had the worst Vauxhall ever built. We rebuilt everything on it, even though he only did a low mileage in it (new transmission, faulty clutch, cylinder head work etc etc all before 25000 miles) - everytime we saw him he told us what a great car it was.
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I used to know one old chap who rountinely bought brand new Skoda Estelles and would keep them a year and then buy another. He thought they were marvellous! >>
Oh dear. I wish it hadn't been Aprilia, but here goes. Through the late 80s and 90s I owned an Estelle 120 with swing axles, two 130 saloons and two coupes, one a 130 and the other a 136 with aftermarket electronic ignition. I thought they were marvellous. For what they were of course, not for what they weren't. They were very cheap as were their parts. They were very economical. They were very easy to work on. They were reliable if properly maintained in early-60s fashion. The 130s and the 136, none of them modified, would do 100 with a fair wind - 90 anyway - and about 40 mpg. Having carburettors they weren't liable to strict emission testing. Some of the ancillaries, starters in particular, weren't all that good but replacement was cheap and easy. They were quite pleasant and entertaining to drive and with terrific demure, humorous character. Skoda was a great engineering firm before Hitler was born, so those 'Guess who's making Skodas now' ads used to make me throw up. Skoda in Communist Czechoslaovakia did a lot with a little, VW in economic-miracle Germany less and less with a lot. I once wrote a piece about Skoda Estelles which ended: "'I say I say I say! How many Skoda owners does it take to screw in a light bulb?' Thank you Jasper Carrott. You're not always funny but you've saved me a bomb."
I suppose I'm becoming an 'old chap' myself, but I'm not that old. Come on, all you Jasper Carrotts, let's be having you (not you Aprilia).
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My brother had several rear engined Skodas; they might not have had a very high maximum, but that was the speed they had to do most of the time, and they stood up to it pretty well. He never went through a hedge backwards either, but admitted they were perhaps not the best things for idiots. So it was nice that he let me drive a couple, and one thing I found was that some repmobiles could not bear to be passed by them!
We agreed that a coupe tweaked a bit and built in Japan would have been great, a sort of poor man's Porsche.
Pesonally I would like to try a Tatra.
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Well Tomo, I can see you at least are one of us. I hope you noticed that the repmobiles could be passed by Estelles, uphill and round bends too. They might not have liked it but they seldom did anything about it, nyaaa!
Tatra was a fabulous looker in my opinion, totally Dan Dare, and by accounts extremely well made. Had a chance to buy one when they were still cheap, but it would have had to be smuggled out of CZ by someone else and I bottled it. A Czech intellectual I met told me that only in his country would they insist on a steering column gearshift when the gearbox was at the back of the car. The linkage must really be something.
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Well, we used to service a few Estelles so I knew them quite well.
'For what they were' they were not bad cars, although roadholding etc was not too great. I rebuilt a few engines (they had wet liner engines with a copper seal - if they overheated the copper annealed and the liner sank down into the seal - HGF followed). Starter motor armatures used to fly apart and gearboxes were a bit notchy, to say the least. The worst thing about them was the way any rubber parts deteriorated. I remember grabbing hold of a rack gaiter on a 4-year-old Estelle and it crumbled in my hand!
Parts were not that cheap from the dealers, so we used to order them from a place in Leeds or Bradford (can't remember which) SS spares or something. They was also a place in Norfolk. I think in the end they made a fuel inject coupe (136i ??) - I remember driving one of those.
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Wasn't there a rwd skoda, of rounded shape, probably designed in the 50's? An engineer I knew at the Birmingham NHS central office swore by this car, name forgotten, as it took them many miles exploring the back-ways of Europe. Chosen because it was strong and repairable, as was necessary in the less affluent parts of Europe.
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Yes, front engine, rwd and swing axle irs... had a name for terrifying sudden oversteer, but also for solidity and rust resistance. Can't remember the model name although I know it. Saw a mint restored example in Prague a couple of years ago (but not a single proper Tatra, just one very beaten-up late (non-DanDare) taxi).
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Another good reason to visit Prague. We had to cancel a planned trip to Poland this year, due to illness, so could combine the two countries: history, art and vintage cars. If I'm let off the lead to look at the latter.
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>> Yes, front engine, rwd and swing axle irs... had a namefor terrifying sudden oversteer, but also for solidity and rust resistance. Can't remember the model name although I know it. Saw a mint restored example in Prague a couple of years ago (but not a single proper Tatra, just one very beaten-up late (non-DanDare) taxi).
The front-engined rwd Skoda was called the Octavia. Example I saw in Prague was a convertible.>>
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Thank you Aprilia, measured and informed as usual. Agree about the rubber. One of my 130s - I've still got it with a cooked engine, my fault but it's a long story and too boring - came with minimal mileage (it was actually fairly quiet) and when I first got it used to run well cold but horribly thirstily and jerkily when hot. Something appalling had happened to the (copper wire!) plug leads. That car also came with a porous carburettor that wouldn't run properly when properly adjusted. It would only idle with a whisker of choke which someone had adjusted in, presumably without mentioning it to the owner. An old carburettor from the graveyard cured the problem. But hammering across Germany caused valve seat recession to which the 130 is liable.
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In my experience most people's 'off the cuff' opinions of the car that they own are not really worth listening to. They either think its great or its rubbish - not many people have a balanced view.
I have to agree with Aprilia. After all, I've heard all your opinions of Alfa's ;)
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>> In my experience most people's 'off the cuff' opinions of the >> car that they own are not really worth listening to. >> They either think its great or its rubbish - not many >> people have a balanced view. I have to agree with Aprilia. After all, I've heard all your opinions of Alfa's ;)
Hey, not only did I used to own an ALFA, I used to be a member of the owner's club! I spent some of my younger days working in a garage when the Sud's were popular. Boy, did I hate those front inboard discs, especially when a handbrake cable job came up!
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>> >> In my experience most people's 'off the cuff' opinions of >> the >> >> car that they own are not really worth listening to. >> >> >> They either think its great or its rubbish - not >> many >> >> people have a balanced view. >> >> I have to agree with Aprilia. After all, I've heard all >> your opinions of Alfa's ;) >> Hey, not only did I used to own an ALFA, I used to be a member of the owner's club! I spent some of my younger days working in a garage when the Sud's were popular. Boy, did I hate those front inboard discs, especially when a handbrake cable job came up!
I'm not sure whether you've misinterpreted or not Aprilia, but I want to be absolutely sure I haven't accidentally offended you.
When I typed "I've heard your opinions of Alfa's", that was 'your' as in this website as a whole, not 'your' as in Aprilia's. I thought I remembered that you had previously owned one.
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I'm not sure whether you've misinterpreted or not Aprilia, but I want to be absolutely sure I haven't accidentally offended you. When I typed "I've heard your opinions of Alfa's", that was 'your' as in this website as a whole, not 'your' as in Aprilia's. I thought I remembered that you had previously owned one.
No worries, would take a lot more than that to offend me!
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That's nothing. I had an Arna, changed the rear wheel bearings too, wish I hadn;t, only oversteering front-drive car I've ever driven, nice cooking 1300cc engine with singlechoke soles, still fun though.
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By the way, where are all the Jasper Carrotts? A single word of praise for Bristols or mention of Citroen Dyanes brings them out. What's wrong with Skodas? Not sexy enough for you?
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.>> By the way, where are all the Jasper Carrotts? A singleword of praise for Bristols or mention of Citroen Dyanes brings them out. What's wrong with Skodas? Not sexy enough for you?
It's been done to death already.
No-one does "take my mother-in-law" jokes any more either
------
AngryJonny (was E34kid)
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What's wrong with Skodas? Not sexy enough for you? >> It's been done to death already. No-one does "take my mother-in-law" jokes any more either ------ AngryJonny (was E34kid)
It's more that Skodas have become conventional cars and are therefore no longer sneered at by cheeky ignorant small boys. I am reassured but not very surprised to find BR devotees so reasonable about real (non-VW) Skodas (and about the Arna too).
Jokes about politicians have only partly replaced mother-in-law jokes and are usually just as naff, vulgar and unfunny.
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That's nothing. I had an Arna, changed the rear wheel bearings too, wish I hadn;t, only oversteering front-drive car I've ever driven, nice cooking 1300cc engine with singlechoke soles, still fun though.
Ah, the ARNA (ALFA-Romeo Nissan Automobile). A Nissan Cherry with an Alfasud engine, built in Naples. I actually drove one of those not long after they were launched. They were not a bad little car really, but didn't sell very well.
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Ah, the ARNA (ALFA-Romeo Nissan Automobile). A Nissan Cherry with an Alfasud engine, built in Naples. I actually drove one of those not long after they were launched. They were not a bad little car really, but didn't sell very well.
And the Cherry Europe. Surely this car was the wrong way round, Alfa body with Nissan bits amd built by Nissan, that would have been a great car!
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Ah, the ARNA (ALFA-Romeo Nissan Automobile).
I think the last A was for Amalgamation.
Alfa enthusiasts generally try to pretend the Arna never existed, but I think you're right again, taken against cars from it's era, it wasn't as bad as it now appears. Sure it's ugly, but many were in that time, and it was probably more fun to drive than most contemporaries.
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Ah, the ARNA (ALFA-Romeo Nissan Automobile). I think the last A was for Amalgamation. Alfa enthusiasts generally try to pretend the Arna never existed, but I think you're right again, taken against cars from it's era, it wasn't as bad as it now appears. Sure it's ugly, but many were in that time, and it was probably more fun to drive than most contemporaries.
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The last 'A' was for "autoveicoli" which I believe means 'automobile' in Italian. They were basically a Nissan Cherry body, rear suspension and electrics and an Alfasud engine and front suspension. The Cherry Europe was the same car made in the same Italian factory but sold by Nissan dealers. I test drove the Cherry Europe version which went very well IMHO and sounded nice when pootling about town. I'm surprised it didn't sell better. I also once met a chap who had a 'tuned' one with Alfasud Sprint twin-carbs and different cams etc!!
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It didn't sell IMHO because it looked dire.
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It didn't sell IMHO because it looked dire.
It was pretty average-looking for its era. The Japanese-made Nissan Cherry (which looked almost the same) sold rather well. I suspect people must have been put off by the ALFA-Romeo association - ALFA at that time had a very bad reputation for rust and general 'falling apart' of their cars.
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It didn't sell IMHO because it looked dire.
I agree that it looks bad, but I'm not sure that the majority of it's competitors looked any better. We're talking about the early 80's remember, there were some nasty cars out there.
I just think it was a somewhat nonsensical partnership. Buyers of Japanese cars wouldn't buy it because they wouldn't believe an Italian car would hold up to their staid, reliability driven wants. Italian car buyers wouldn't buy it because how could an amalgamation with a Japanese company retain the soul and character they desired.
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Alfa Romeo Nissan Autoveicoli
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IIRC the front end included the Alfa's inboard discs.
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Well, I'm not totally sure, but I reckon it had outboard discs. They were moved outboard on the 'Sud from the early '80's because the oil seals kept failing and dumping oil on the discs (which didn't make for safe braking!). I would be interested in a definitive answer from an ALFA affecionado though...
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My Arna had outboard discs. Front anti-roll bar missing on Arna too although there were holes in the chassis to put one on... I imagine the oversteer I noticed on certain slippery bumpy roundabouts might have moved from helpful to alarming with front ar bar and no change at the other end. Does anyone have a view?
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Maybe your ARNA **should** have had an antiroll bar, Lud. An ARB increases roll stiffness which increases weight transfer to the outer tyre and so increases slip angle. Therefore adding an ARB at the front would have promoted understeer - which is what you wanted. Maybe someone removed it, or it was left off at the factory?
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No, not fitted as standard I believe - perhaps the 1500 or twin-carb 1300 might have have had one though. And I didn't want understeer, it steered very nicely the way it was. Thanks for technical straightening out though... however given somewhat jelly-like Arna body, torsional rigidity in negative quantities, and irs with, I suspect, increased negative camber angle over the standard Nissan, I wonder what would really have happened if I had got round to installing the arb I got from a Sud in a breaker's yard... Never know now.
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Forum oldie, just re-registered to post about my beloved Europe.
Don't think it was me, but I had a white Europe, originally 1200cc into which I transplanted a Sud Sprint 1500 - had the two twin choke Dell'Ortos. Looked like an 80's Nissan but did it fly - kept the original 1200 gearbox - iirc redlined at 65 in 3rd, 90ish in 4th and went onto a repectable 125 in 5th (redline, mind, no overdrive!). Would pootle round town in 5th and you could hear the induction wumph for each individual cylinder, never did more than 30 to the gallon, and I tried everything, frequently did less than 20mpg :o). 5000 miles a set of front tyres and brake pads and Golden Lodge plugs (it never ran right on anything else - £5 each, in the 80's!!!!!!). Dodgy electrics that needed tlc and boy did it rust, wierd places aswell, just random patches - I used to touch up with Hammerite radiator paint - smooth finish, stronger than the metal it was put onto. Had to replace the rear silencer box annually as it got blown apart by detonation on the overrun - it left sparks bouncing down the road sometimes after a good blast in third - especially fun at night in the country. Bought it off my dad at 60k put another 60k on it in not too many years and then PXd it at 6 years old for loose change. Perfect car for an 80s teenager - I get nostalgic sometimes and try some of the old "runs" in the wilds of N yorks and I scare myself trying to keep up with how I remember them. Back end was always too soft even with Konis, but it was fun, if expensive to run.
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The Nissan/Datsun dealers didn't like them much - first time they'd had to do PDIs. The list price was something like £4750 (which shows how much more you get for your money more than 20 years on). I don't know whether they were summarily withdrawn to preserve the Nissan reputation, but some were auctioned unregistered for £2500-£3000 IIRC.
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There was a lot of friction between Alfa and Nissan - Nissan sold the Europe but didn't have a clue how to service them - there were a few tricks that needed to be learnt, plus they had to stock spares for a model derivative that was so different from the normal Cherry, and there weren't that many of them. The Alfa dealers wouldn't touch them as they had a badge snob problem - even though they were only selling 200 cars a year in the UK (1986 iirc) in the end Nissan dumped them and left it to Alfa - they'd built a new line in the old Sud factory to keep a poor depressed area going and had commitments. The ARNA came about a year/18 months later for just long enough as it took Alfa to kill the model and bring out the 33.
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Perhaps it was the Cherry Europe, but I remember seeing a Cherry once that was obviously an Arna under the skin... as Drash says, a real fun car however old you were even in low tuned singlechoke Solex form, zippy and happy to rev. The soft back end referred to must be what I mean by 'oversteer'. It was good, not bad. Perhaps with ARB wd have understeered in a more boring way?
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The Cherry Europe came first, then the ARNA, they were identical apart from badging - my Europe, my dad bought one of the first out (always was a bit mental that way), had the Alfa boss on the steering wheel - Alfa badges on everything under the hood, basically everything was badged Alfa apart from the front grille and the stick-ons on the hatch lid - I bought everything sparewise from the Alfa garage (the Nissan bits never broke)
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