HI People
I've just bought my first automatic car.
I wasn't looking for one but right time, right place, right price etc. etc.
What I'd like to know is....
Should I put it in Neutral while at red lights and so on or should I just leave in drive?
Which causes more wear, the shifting in and out or the holding on the bite point?
With thanks upfront
Robert
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I'm a lazy b****r, rs, so I just zap up the handbrake, so as not to blind the people behind with my break lights. Neutral? that's for when you are stopped!
I'm sure many other will disagree ... I know a friend who knocks it up to "N" and coasts in to lights ...
By the way, have any fun with your left foot yet, going for the non-existent clutch, and hitting the BIG brake pedal? :)
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Keep your foot on the brake pedal at traffic lights and transmission in "D", it's much safer and the transmission is designed with that in mind. I personally would not knock it into neutral as you approach traffic lights as this will probably be tougher on the brakes in the long term.
Eleanor
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Eleanor - read my above regarding blinding the poor sods behind you...
:)
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I don't usually drive an automatic, but when I do I follow the usual procedure, i.e. if likely to be stopped for more than a few seconds, put into neutral and apply handbrake. A long time since I took my test, but I that was what was expected then. Would it be different for auto's?
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Get the fluid changed in the box post haste, and the level checked if it has a separate diff arrangement. Then you can have at least some reassurance when you give it some gentle abuse.
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I live in the US and it's normal to blind the poor sod behind you
Eleanor
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We blind 'em in front now with front fogs too!
Mike
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Got to admit, blind 'em or not, I hold it on the brakes until I need to move off.
I rarely, if ever, use the parking/emergency/hand brake. You have to rest your foot somehwere, why not there ? I've put a fair number of miles on automatics, new and old, and never developed any failings because of this habit.
M.
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So you're one of the inconsiderate's who can't be bothered to use the handbrake at enforced stops, Eleanor? I've often wanted to speak to such a driver and ask them why they're content to sit on the footbrake, causing anyone behind to squint against the (admittedly newly developed) super-bright LED brake lights.
So - why can't you be bothered? Is it just plain laziness, or is it a deliberate ploy to annoy, or do you you simply just not care? Please let me know. As I say I've always wanted the opportunity to ask and now I've been granted my wish.
Incidentally, it's not a safe practice, as if you're rear ended, your foot will not stay on the footbrake for long and you'll find your front end embedded in the rear end of whatever happens to be in front of you.
KB
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> I've often
> wanted to speak to such a driver and ask them why they're
> content to sit on the footbrake, causing anyone behind to
> squint against the (admittedly newly developed) super-bright
> LED brake lights.
So, you're speaking to one. - because I never thought about it before and I have never been particularly bothered by brake lights in front of me, so I find it difficult to know why someone would be bothered by mine.
> Incidentally, it's not a safe practice, as if you're rear
> ended, your foot will not stay on the footbrake for long and
> you'll find your front end embedded in the rear end of
> whatever happens to be in front of you.
Its a Dodge Ram Twin-Cab. So unless you're driving a [pink] tank or similar, then you running into the back of me is much more likely to be a concern for you, then it is me. It certainly was for the one and only man ever stupid enough to try it on my truck while driving in a [not pink] Fiat taxi.
Seriously though, is it really that much of an issue ? I have been bothered by foglights and the like, but I really don't recall ever being bothered by someone's brake lights.
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My driver training and subsequent driving test which I have passed in 3 different states first time was how this started. Everyone here does the same thing at enforced stops even police cars and other emergency vehicles. Driving any other way in the US could be considered confusing as you know if the guy in front is sitting in his car with the brake lights on at a stop light he is probably ready to roll when the green appears.
Eleanor
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Dear, dear, it's getting a bit fraught in here...
My trainer said that if the stop is going to be for a few seconds, footbrake, otherwise neutral and handbrake. He was a Police instructor, which is good enough for me.
What "a few seconds" is , of course, is up to you.
V
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Really needs an authoritative answer from HJ. Personally, I use neutral and handbrake.
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An auto repair guy recommended that the car should be kept in gear as torque converter slip was better than wear on gearbox internals. Foot brake? only until the next car pulls up behind, then apply hand brake to avoid dazzle, but I take the point about being rear ended and your foot slipping.
It can be disconcerting with a front wheel drive car as you change from foot brake to rear only hand brake, the suspension settles itself into a new position, which can be worrying at first.
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Personally always been a handbrake/neutral person myself, but, hey, that's just the sort of man I am, neutral.
Seriously, though, if you want to cause some frightened looks on the faces of those behind then use P. The look on their faces as the lights go green and your reversing lights come on as you go from P through R & N to D is a delight to behold!!
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Personally always been a handbrake/neutral person myself, but, hey, that's just the sort of man I am, neutral.
Seriously, though, if you want to cause some frightened looks on the faces of those behind then use P. The look on their faces as the lights go green and your reversing lights come on as you go from P through R & N to D is a delight to behold!!
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Personally always been a handbrake/neutral person myself, but, hey, that's just the sort of man I am, neutral.
Seriously, though, if you want to cause some frightened looks on the faces of those behind then use P. The look on their faces as the lights go green and your reversing lights come on as you go from P through R & N to D is a delight to behold!!
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Personally always been a handbrake/neutral person myself, but, hey, that's just the sort of man I am, neutral.
Seriously, though, if you want to cause some frightened looks on the faces of those behind then use P. The look on their faces as the lights go green and your reversing lights come on as you go from P through R & N to D is a delight to behold!!
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You just said that, said that, said that, said that ... :)
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Cockle, Could you repeat that ? - I didn't quite catch what you said.
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Sorry about that, having a little bit of PC trouble this end. It'll teach me not to re-boot after a virus scan update!!
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Hello Mark, Hello Eleanor, Thanks for coming back on this.
Much of what Mark said was, as he agrees, tongue in cheek, so it's not necessary to pursue the line that not all of us drive a Dodge Ram. Mark, I note the annoyance caused by foglamps, and very much share that one with you as well, however, it IS annoying for those of us in less substantial and lower riding vehicles to have to sit in traffic jam, (of which we have plenty remember) for long periods at a time, with a high level, high intensity LED brake light shining in your face. If this forum does nothing else (which isn't the case coz it serves a multitude of purposes), perhaps it has reminded everyone looking in that it doesn't take much to pull a handbrake on in traffic or at the lights and might just help us all.
Eleanor, I've made my point above, and suspect that nothing I or anyone here can say will alter the way you do it. But in this country, driving instructors both standard level and advanced level, do not approve of sitting on the pedal for extended periods. It is recommended that Vin's method, above, is good for manuals. And for auto's - still apply the handbrake but leave it in gear (at say, traffic lights) and for anything longer than that - neutral with said handbrake.
Thanks again for your replies.
KB
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> it's not necessary to pursue the line that not all of us drive a Dodge Ram.
But its fun. You have no idea how many of the things which are normally very annoying suddenly stop happening when I am behind or in front of the offender !!!! I don't get tailgated very often, and *never* by the same person twice.
People don't switch lanes in front of me, pull out in front of me, or generally do anything to annoy me. And if they do, its not tough to give the brakes a brief thump and lock the rear wheels briefly. That screech can empty the lane in front of me immediately !
> it doesn't take much to
> pull a handbrake on in traffic or at the lights and might
> just help us all.
I take your point. Although its a pain in the bottom in the Dodge, since its one of those foot operated/hand released jobbies which is awkward to put on and releases with one hell of a thump.
I guess it comes down to what is an "extended period". Certainly in traffic jams there isn't much chance of me using the brake, but I'll try to be more considerate at traffic lights.
Also, Eleanor has a good point for the US, although I hadn't considered it before - one certainly does pay attention to the brake lights of the car in front as an indicator of their intention, rather than simply their current action.
M.
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Thanks again M, for your reply. If nothing else, we've got an idea of each others view which we didn't have before.
And given my current indisposition with the Electric Monk, I have no wish to...............no I'll stop there.and keep my mouth shut.
Regards,
KB
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The best thing is, as someone says below, put it in neutral if you are going to be stopped for more than 30 seconds or so. Leaving it in gear both heats up the transmission fluid, and also uses more petrol as most auto cars open the throttle slighlty (or an auxillary air valve, which has the same effect) to overcome the drag in the torque converter. Whether you put on the handbrake or not is up to you - but let the thing cool off if it has a chance!
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Thanks for all the advice on the 'Neutral vs Drive' scenario and sorry to cause the 'hand vs foot' debate.
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I'm a handbrake/neutral man, but often wondered what effect slipping in and out of neutral, stationary or coasting, has on the car. When doing the neutral to drive shift there is a feeling of something mechanical happening, but is it better worse just to leave it to save wear and tear.
I agree with comments about dazzle. I used to do a 30 minute city centre commuter crawl and in winter darkness am & pm it wasn't nice getting behind an auto, so I used to change lanes to avoid it. I now use the brake as little as poss in my auto when cars are close behind but difficulty is that in city traffic you have to ride on the brake nearly all the time in the very slow/crawling situation.
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I am willing to be corrected here but like KB I suffer from sitting in traffic behind the too lazy to put the parking brake on merchants. So on the occasions I do drive an auto, I put the parking brake on but leave it in D.
Now here comes the rub. I also drive in the USA, and whilst as Eleanour and Mark say almost everyone, including police, sit with the foot on the brake pedal. Yet I find the dazzling issue does not arise. Why is this? Is it because we have brighter brake lights in UK/EU?
Must say in US I do it too, but feel guilty. The reason I do this bad habit is because of those stupid foot operated parking brakes which disengage as soon as you take the car out of N or P. These things are as much use as a chocolate fireguard. If you try and hold the car in D with one of those things the foot pressure needed is excessive after a time. Oh for that Chevy Cavalier which had a proper hand brake.
Quick quiz, how many times did I originally type barke(s) instead of brake(s).
grrrrrr!
(the grrrrr is a clue for the clueless)
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In the Uk it's an offence under the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations to dazzle another driver, which is what a high level brake light can do to the driver behind. But I've never heard of these regulations being enforced. So if you want to annoy the driver behind, then sit with your foot on the brake. If you don't want to annoy the driver behind, don't. He (or she) is hardly going to ram you because if he (or she) does you'll call Claims Direct and sue him (or her) for half a million quid for whiplash injuries. I prefer not to annoy the driver behind.
HJ
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Some good advie I got from an advanced driving day:
Keep your foot on the Brakes (and hence the lights) UNTIL someone has stoped behind you. In this way they have a better chance of realising you are stationary in they are not concentrating fully. THEN, handbrake and neutral.
ALWAYS leave space in front of you (you should be able to see tarmac behind the car in front). Then, if you are rear ended, you have less chance of smashing the front up as well.
FWIW
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Tony wrote:
Keep your foot on the Brakes (and hence the lights) UNTIL someone has stoped behind you. In this way they have a better chance of realising you are stationary in they are not concentrating fully. THEN, handbrake and neutral.
Best call so far, Tony. I'll try to adopt this very sound advice.
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I have often wondered why manufacturers don't arrange for the brake lights to come on for a limited time - 10 seconds say - then fade to about tail light brilliance, coming back bright again with another shove on the pedal. And another point - many moons ago I had an Armstrong-Siddeley Sapphire on which the brake lights were actuated by a pressure switch in the brake line, not by a simple switch on the pedal. This meant you could sit with the brakes lightly on - it was an automatic - without the stop lights working. I suppose this would cost a few pence more though....
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>>Thanks again M, for your reply. If nothing else, we've got an idea of each others view which we didn't have before.
If that mean sI annoyed you, it wasn't my intention.
However, I have become obsessive about brake lights. 1 hour+ driving home last night in the dark, and the same coming in this morning in the light.
Firstly, the dazzling bit. I can't see it. We have basically European cars here, so I would have thought they would be the same, particularly for something as small as brake light brightness. bearing in mind that I am driving a Xantia Estate at the moment.
But they just weren't dazzling me, from whichever height. I did encounter a couple of idiots with their foglights on and that was annoying, but brake lights not.
Again, coming in this morning there was no issue, although it was daylight so perhaps that to be expected.
Although maybe rain at night would make it worse. Its forecast to rain on Saturday night, I think, so I'll pay attention.
And I tried this handbrake on at every opportunity. Drove me nuts, and the guy behind. Its ok at traffic lights, but not in a traffic jam - unless its really slow I guess.
So, someone mentioned "if you are going to be stopped for more than 30 secs". I think I'd go with that, with the addition that it should be "if you are sure you will be stopped for more than 30secs".
As for watching brake lights, I came within inches of trashing an old Viva this morning because its brakes lights didn't work - and with this current fixation of mine I didn't notice he'd stopped. Scared the wotsit out of me, and I now have two of the only pedigree, flat-nosed Retreivers in Brazil after they both nosedived into the back of the seats as I braked hard.
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You're right about it being worse in the rain - and as it never rains in Brazil you wouldn't know about that !
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> You're right about it being worse in the rain - and as it never rains in Brazil you wouldn't know about that !
I wish.
Sadly, Matt, its a tropical country, it rains all the bloody time.
Most days in the evening or the night it rains at least some. About every two or three weeks we'll get a day or two of solid rain.
Its Chile where it doesn't rain much.
Mark.
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about it 'cos it's *really* aggravating sitting behind someone at traffic lights in the rain, in the dark and they've got their foot on the brake pedal and the bright upper brake light dazzles you.
Nightmare.
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I too would like to know about the use of neutral in autos. I often switch to N when going downhill, and all seems fine. On my carlton there is a trip computer with an instant consumption readout. When the car is in D yet braked and stationary, the consumption is double that (it reads 0.4gal/h) than when in neutral (0.2gal/h). Surely this means there is the ability to save fuel by coasting in neutral? Or does the wear on the gearbox shifting from D/N/D make this not worth doing?
BTW - just to explain; the trip computer switches from gal/hr to MPG when you go over 10mph. Quite a neat trick I thought.
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Switching to neutral while going down hill sounds great, however you are loosing the braking effect of the transmission and causing more wear and heat buildup on your brakes. After a certain tempreature point the brakes components loose there efficency. Gradual braking with the transmission's braking effect in conjunction with the brakes is better rolling down the hill in "N".
Eleanor
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Told you so! That's three teaspoonfuls a minute.
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Thanks Elanor, in my Carlton there seems to be very little braking effect. If it was a huuuugggeee hill then maybe I would be concerned about the brakes overheating and losing efficiency but I wouldn't think this would be a problem on most England sized hills. The main reason I do it is in an attempt to save fuel because as a poor student the fuel bills on my 2.0l Carlton give me sleepless nights.
I remember coming down from the heights of Yosemite national park into what is virtually desert. The brakes on our rented Grand Voyager didn't half stink. Must have got *really* hot. That was a hill ;)
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IMHO:
At any set of traffic lights where you know you'll be sat for more than half a minute or in traffic jams when you are not just drifting forward but stood still then stick the car in neutral.
The reason for this is that with the car in D, oil is being forced round the torque convertor which is sapping the engine which is thus consuming more petrol. It also increases stress on the brakes and I know for at least one car in HJ's breakdown, the use of neutral is advised to prevent brake disk warping on one particular car. I'm not for one moment suggesting this is a reason not to on your particular car but for the fuel saving alone it'd be worthwhile. Try it for a week using both scenarios - wouldn't surprise me if you get 2-4mpg difference.
On the other note which appears to have popped into this, if you're sat in front of me with your foot on the brake pedal I couldn't give a t0ss and feel much safer for it thank you very much.
Would you all rather go back to the days of Cortinas etc where you had some crap dual filament bulb which, especially in the dusk and in rain on the motorway was about as much use to indicate you were slowing down as waving a candle out the window? I'd much rather have the highly noticeable bright LED/high visibility lights that are used these days so if I've been driving for 4 hours I damn well notice when people in front of me start to slow down! If it blinds you in traffic then don't drive so close!
Dan J
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Tony, there is an alternative view, and that is that a vehicle with brake lights on is usually slowing down, but still moving. I don't like the idea of finding, in poor visibility, that it is actually stationary.
On the dazzle issue, if it is dark and raining then I find it a considerable eyestrain if the guy in front is sitting on his brakes. It is even worse on a motorbike where you have no wipers on your vizor. Plus it degrades your night vision for the next minute or two.
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I agree with the dazzle, but brake lights on do mean 'caution', and you are more likely to be seen. I don't keep them on once someone is behind.
.. And it WAS on an advanced driver course!
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I certainly saves fuel. I used to be a student in Sheffield and climb in the peak district. I could drive home for the top of the long shallow hill all the way into sheffield with no brakes about 5 miles. OK i'll admit it no engine either, that really saved fuel did make the steering a bit heavy.
I used to leave it in gear with the engine off and the cluth down so I could start the engine quickly. Never had a problem.
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