Drive a new Passat or a Renault with an electronic parking brake, realise how good they are and easy to operate then go back to a car fitted with one of them old fangled levers you pull up from the floor.
Suddenly you feel like your pulling a lever on a steam train. How 20th century!
Is the lever handbrake dying? Are we at the beginning of it's passing?
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How do you get an electronic parking brake on or off if the battery goes flat?
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How do you get an electronic parking brake on or off if the battery goes flat?
There is a way of manually releasing it via a cable in the boot of my Scenic. I would need to check the manual for anything more technical than that!
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I liked your description!
Wonder if you're being a bit hasty though, as my uncle, who knew a thing or two about cars, predicted to us young uns in the mid sixties that the gearstick wouldn't last beyond the end of the century......
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I liked your description! Wonder if you're being a bit hasty though, as my uncle, who knew a thing or two about cars, predicted to us young uns in the mid sixties that the gearstick wouldn't last beyond the end of the century......
Sounds like his only mistake was not counting on the public's extraordinary reluctance to accept change... I happen to agree with him though, they should be extinct in all but sports cars by now...
Blue
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The old signal-box style handbrake lever was just about extinct on lorries and buses by 1980, replaced initially by small blue toggle levers.
Cheers,
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Suppose the passing of the handbrake leaver started in 1955. The Citroen DS didn't have a lever, just a button where the brake pedal should have been.
But then again, no Citroen used that method again!!
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Suppose the passing of the handbrake leaver started in 1955. The Citroen DS didn't have a lever, just a button where the brake pedal should have been. But then again, no Citroen used that method again!!
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IIRC the Citroen had a high pressure brake circuit so the button to operate the brakes just opened a valve.
It needed a gentle foot as my passenger soon found out when, in that era, I tried a friends DS.
It was too clever for joe public and of course a hazard when strangers tried it out without a warning about it.
I think that was why a conventional pedal was introduced to operate the button.
IIRC it had a foot operated parking brake.
The IDs pedals confused even more people.
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Come to think of it, haven't most American cars had foot operated parking brakes for years?
Cheers, SS
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If the electronic parking brake is anything like that in the Cmax it will be getting it to aply in the first place that will be the problem, our demo Cmax used to roll all over the place after the handbrake was meant to have applied itself.
Blue
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Drive a new Passat or a Renault with an electronic parking brake
Interesting. What activates it?
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L\'escargot.
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I've always thought that anything to do with brakes and steering should be left as simple as possible so as to ensure high reliability.
In an emergency, can one put the electric handbrake on when one is moving? For example if your other brakes have failed?
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In an emergency, can one put the electric handbrake on when one is moving? For example if your other brakes have failed?
yes, you press and hold the button, which given that my right hand is my dominant one, and would be the one I really wanted to be gripping the steering wheel, is a bad idea.
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You press the P button to the right of the steering wheel, unless, like me, you paid £35 for an Auto Hold button, which applied the handbrake automatically when you come to a complete stop, and press the foot brake in.
You don't have to release the handbrake to drive off, as that is automatic.
Is a bit of a faf that you have to go through if you try to drive off without your seatbelt on though!
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I think this is complication for the sake of complication, and also I understand that there is an issue with the driving test if a car has this type of handbrake.
What happens if it goes wrong due to a broken wire - blown fuse etc ?
To give an analogy, even the most modern airliners today with so called 'glass' cockpits still have basic flight instrunments duplicated as a backup, and these are systems that are already triple/quadruple redundant !
I'd say leave well alone.
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Correct Roly - you can't take your test in a vehicle fitted with an electric parking brake. Only cars I've driven with this system are Jags, but it works very well. A simple pull lever to apply, when power is applied it releases automatically.
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I think this is complication for the sake of complication, and also I understand that there is an issue with the driving test if a car has this type of handbrake. What happens if it goes wrong due to a broken wire - blown fuse etc ? To give an analogy, even the most modern airliners today with so called 'glass' cockpits still have basic flight instrunments duplicated as a backup, and these are systems that are already triple/quadruple redundant ! I'd say leave well alone.
Yep, agreed.
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I prefer foot operated parking brake. Allows space down the middle for massively sized armrests ;-)
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Backing onto a steep uphill drive in a manual car with a foot operated parking brake, trying to park close to a friend's car to leave enough room in front for another car:
Stop on road, select reverse.
Up the drive, declutch and foot on brake to stop car. Realise you're stopped three feet short of where you need to be. Erm.....select neutral, foot off clutch, onto parking brake, back onto clutch, select reverse. Slip clutch furiously, as you know thet parking brake will go off with a bang (no gradual release of brake pressure here) release brake. Repeat until you're at the exact spot you need to be.
Awful. I agree they're probably OK on automatics, but the above did happen to me. My wife, who is the best driver I know, gave up driving to this person's house.
V
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Up the drive, declutch and foot on brake to stop car. Realise you're stopped three feet short of where you need to be. Erm.....select neutral, foot off clutch, onto parking brake, back onto clutch, select reverse. Slip clutch furiously, as you know thet parking brake will go off with a bang (no gradual release of brake pressure here) release brake.
My driving instructor years ago was very keen on practising hill starts by putting a matchbox tight behind the rear wheels. Crushing the box = fail.
I thought there was a legal requirement for an emergency brake that was entirely independent of the main system? I remember MOT's where I had to demonstrate the effectiveness of the handbrake by applying it at about 30 mph while the tester measured the rate of deceleration with a portable device. It had to be 25% as effective as the main brakes, I recall.
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So that why old issues of Autocar etc used to test handbrake efficiency by making it stop the car from 30mph.
For those who say "but what do you do if it fails....?" Stick it in gear if it needs to be left unattended. It does however, make ordinary driving a bit faffy. In any case, this wont help if it gets stuck ON.
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>>I remember MOT's where I had to demonstrate the effectiveness of the handbrake by applying it at about 30 mph while the tester measured the rate of deceleration with a portable device.
>>It had to be 25% as effective as the main brakes, I recall.
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I noticed one of those Tapley meters at my MoT station.
They told me they are still used IIRC for testing certain 4 X 4s brakes. I cannot recall the full explanation.
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I noticed one of those Tapley meters at my MoT station. They told me they are still used IIRC for testing certain 4 X 4s brakes. I cannot recall the full explanation.
I think that's the only way of testing 4X4 brakes where the two axles are permanently coupled. Otherwise it would require a rather special kind of rolling road with double rollers, and their spacing adjustable to accommodate different wheelbases.
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Drove a car in the States with foot operated handbrake(you know what I mean).Pedal was high and to the left of other pedals and could be released by pressing a button on the dash but it also released when you selected "D" on the auto-box.Most HGV's use an instant release handbrake and on hill-starts you hold the lorry on the clutch till you release the brake and you have to demonstrate your competence as part of the HGV(now LCV)test.
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Tapley meters are still used on 3-wheelers.
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I noticed one of those Tapley meters at my MoT station. I think that's the only way of testing 4X4 brakes where the two axles are permanently coupled. Otherwise it would require a rather special kind of rolling road with double rollers, and their spacing adjustable to accommodate different wheelbases.
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Thanks Cliff. That makes sense.
I guess it also means that certain 4X4 may have an imbalance in their braking that could be a problem to identify.
I wonder how dealers check out this sort of brake situation?
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They're also used on cars fitted with limited slip diff's,otherwise when testin single wheel efficiency,it would lock the drive to both driving wheels.
Didn't Subaru have a "hill holder" system years ago?
If the emergency release on Renaults is in the boot,isn't this an accident waiting to happen when parked facing uphill,without being in gear!!??
I've got to check my testers manual,as I was under the impression the parking brake must be mechanically operated,in case of failure of the main brakes? I once failed a rally car because it had a purely hydralic handbrake?
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Surely as long as the parking brake is completely separate from the service brake system it doesnt matter if it is hydraulic, mechanical or whatever. Still wouldn't trust an electronic one mind you - I am a bit of a luddite in such matters.
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Didn't Subaru have a "hill holder" system years ago?
Still had one on the MY99 manual awd box, worked very well as I used to have a steep approach to a very short garage which required me to get within 25mm of the end wall to be able to close the door.
StarGazer
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Cliff Pope: I think that's the only way of testing 4X4 brakes where the two axles are permanently coupled. Otherwise it would require a rather special kind of rolling road with double rollers, and their spacing adjustable to accommodate different wheelbases.
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The testing station (in New Zealand) I use for our 4WD Mitsubishi Galant has brake testing rollers that can be put into '4WD mode'. I have watched this and the process (controlled by the tester with an infra-red remote) makes the two rollers rotate in opposite directions. Thus the vehicle is making no forward motion. The wheel that is moving forward is brake tested. The rollers are reversed and the other wheel is tested. Then the rear wheels are put on and the same tests done, including separate tests for the handbrake. This takes about twice as long as the 2WD test, but looks to be the only safe way of testing vehicles with 4WD on a brake testing roller.
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Car makers continually try to redesign the wheel to justify their existance, I remember Renault coming out with a large credit card electronic thing instead of a key. WHY!! a key in a ignition lock is not broken IMO and the Renault credit card had a fail safe built in... you guessed it a key inside the credit card thing.
Another thigk that annoy's is these stupid flappy paddle gear boxes, what's broken about a standard manual with a clutch? if that's to much of a hardship for people buy a normal auto.
There is nothing broken with a cable operated handbrake & lever, simple effective and reliable... but I still leave my car in gear anyway
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I don't know how the new electric handbrakes work, but I would guess that the system is fail safe and mechanically applied.
HGV park brakes (spring brakes) are applied automatically by powerful springs. The brake is held OFF by air pressure. In the event of an emergency, the springs can be wound off to allow vehicle movement. Obviously fail safe. In normal use the park brake lever is either on or off but there are variations allowing progressive (secondary braking) operation.
A similar system could be operated electrically using relays and so on instead of brake chambers and dump valves.
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If it were like that then it's overly complex and an always on fail safe could be extremely dangerous. I'd doubt it could be calculated to apply the exact amount of pressure to fail on progressively so it didn't cause a skid on icy roads, compaired to bone dry roads, especailly if you were half way around a roundabout!.
Next thing they'll tell us due to this the handbrake will have it's own abs system!. In over 20 years as a mechanic I've never seen a handbrake fail unless it was due to poor maintenance / cheap and nasty aftermarket cables. The lever / cable manual handbrake concept maybe be agricultural, but it's simple effective & reliable like all good things.
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Bladerunner, it isn't complex and it isn't dangerous - it's simple and safe. In the event of no air pressure the spring park brake reverts to it's default setting - fully on !
The hissing noise you hear when HGV park brakes are applied is the system 'dumping' compressed air from parts of the braking system and allowing the the park brake to go into it's default position. It follows that an unwanted loss of air pressure from the system will also apply the park brake. Minor air leaks will be overcome by the compressor so only a very rapid and sudden air loss will result in an unwanted park brake application. The outcome of such an unlikely occurance will depend on driver skill, load, road surface, weather conditions etc.
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There is very good reason for the brakes being always "on" with a lorry and air assisted "off". I once read that a fully loaded artic travelling at its max legal speed has the same destructive force as a large 4 door saloon car also fully loaded travelling at 320 mph!
I was commenting that it is unnecessary over designing & complication for a car to replace a simple tried & tested lever / cable system that works perfectly... If it became the norm to have electric / air handbrakes we'll end up with stuck immobilised cars when these systems go wrong, and they will with lack of maintenance especially on their 4 / 5th owner. Judging by the amount of those unwilling or unable to change a flat at the side of the road without Rac / AA I wouldn't expect many to know or care how to manually release these systems if they fail. I'm all for progress but only when it's forward not sideways ;-)
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Having held a HGV licence,when you see "danger-AIR BRAKES" on the back of a lorry,be warned-they can stop you-no matter what you have on board.
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I must stick up for the Renault card. Having other cars with conventional keys, the Renault system has the advantage that you can slip it into your wallet or easily keep it in your pocket. Combined with the keyless entry system, it is one of those things you soon realise is very handy.
Now the electronic handbrake, not so sure on that.
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A classic case of a solution looking for a problem.
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I must stick up for the Renault card. Having other cars with conventional keys, the Renault system has the advantage that you can slip it into your wallet
Great, so I have my wallet nicked and they have my car as well as my cards. No thanks.
Call me old fashioned but I like to be able to feel the weight of the car keys in my pocket. I know they are there then.
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Yeah the early Laguna that I used for a while had one of these. to describe it as "credit card sized" is really flattering it as it longer wider and about as thick as 8 to 10 credit cards in a stack.
To me its just another "sideways" development not forward progress. It looked cheap & fragile, probably cost a fortune to replace and gimmicky.
It's about to get better or worse depending on your view point. The plan is to have USB flash drives coded as a "key" with all your personal settings, like seat position aircon / heater settings sat nav etc etc. a far more sinister idea is to data link new cars through what will become standard fit sat nav so software can be updated, (or they can spy on where you've been / how fast you been going / driving style). I can see it now... badly lit road at night.. rain bouncing in rods off the road.... your car is sent critical updated engine management software, but with a bug that stops the wipers working :-)
I'd prefer car manufactures to put the gimmick development resources into replacing the IC engine with something more efficient & greener asap
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>>Great, so I have my wallet nicked and they have my car as well as my cards. No thanks.
You could say that about key, if you left them in your coat pocket and someone nicked it. The advantage of the card is that you have more options where you keep it. Mine often stays in my trouser pocket, on the keyless entry system you don't need to insert it into the dashboard to start the engine, as long as it's in the car, the car will start.
Yeah the early Laguna that I used for a while had one of these. to describe it as "credit card sized" is really flattering it as it longer wider and about as thick as 8 to 10 credit cards in a stack.
It's thicker than a credit card but it is shorter and narrower.
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The beauty of the electronic handbrake is that the space a handbrake would take up can now be used to better effect, and makes for a smarter looking interior.
On what grounds can a test be refused in a car with electronic handbrake? Doest the test specifically state that a mechanical, hand operated lever much be used to apply the handbrake. Can't imagine that, given that electronic brakes probably were not thought of when the test was written.
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This is what the MOT manual says...
(Reason for rejection)
"2. For vehicles first used on or after 1 January 1968 the parking brake is not capable of being maintained in operation by direct mechanical action only."
?????
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I liked the Rootes configuration of the handbrake lever on the right hand side of the driver's seat. You could put the car in gear with your left hand and simultaneously have your right hand on the handbrake lever ready to release it when you had applied the necessary throttle opening. Much quicker and smoother than having to use your left hand for the gear lever and then having to transfer it to the handbrake.
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L\'escargot.
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>>This is what the MOT manual says...(Reason for rejection)
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so all these renault cars with electronic/electric handbrakes cannot get through mot and must be scrapped at the end of 3 years ?
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I suppose that if the handbrake is applied by springs and released electrically (as I mentioned with the truck brakes), it is applied mechanically.
All cars are suspended mechanically by springs, and anti - burst door locks depend on springs to position the various bits in the right place, so what's wrong a spring applied hanbrake ?
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Mechanical handbrakes are cheap and simple to manufacture, generally very reliable and easy to maintain (spot of grease now and again). Most cars in scrapyards have working handbrakes. Now we are replacing it with something complex, expensive to fix when it goes wrong and offering no additional functionality.
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Word of warning on electronic parking brakes.
We hired a Scenic in Spain this year. The car was left parked nose first in a bay, cars either side. When we got back, the battery was flat, reason unknown.
When the breakdown truck arrived, he couldn't get his jump leads to the battery because of the parking position, and, yes, because the handbrake was electronic we couldn't release it to roll the car back.
Eventually, he ended up winching the car backwards amidst much squealing of tyres, which can't have done it much good.
Moral: always park reversed in!
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Could the breakdown chappie not have connected a battery feed up to the cigarette lighter, boot light or interior light instead to provide enough power to release the handbrake?
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Could the breakdown chappie not have connected a battery feed up to the cigarette lighter, boot light or interior light instead to provide enough power to release the handbrake?
Bit dodgy that. If the battery is flat then a fair current could flow through the wiring and you could end up melting it, blowing fuses or switch contacts, or even starting a fire.
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Take it neither you nor the breakdown chappie had the manual that explained how to manually release the handbrake?
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Take it neither you nor the breakdown chappie had the manual that explained how to manually release the handbrake?
Interesting. Do they fit a cable and lever so that you can 'manually override' and release it if the power fails?
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Cant remember the exact details as handbook is in car and it is precipitating down outside, but there is a way of releasing the handbrake by access via the boot at side of spare wheel I think. Not sure how mechanical it is.
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Brilliant! They could even put the lever within reach of the driving seat (more convenient than in the boot) and dispense with the electronics...all it needs is a bit more evolution!
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