Morning All,
Yesterday whilst sitting in my car in the local supermarket carpark, a car went into the back of mine. No injuries, but the damage to my Vectra and the other party's Mondeo was considerable. The other party were an elderly couple.
The Mondeo was brand new they had only had it two days and it was an automatic, the first that the man had driven. He said he was forced into getting an auto because of ankle problems. He admitted that he had accidentally touched the throttle rather than the brake. (Okay easy mistake to make)
My point is that there seems to be a misconception that driving an auto requires less skill than a manual and that if you can drive manual then naturally one can drive an auto without much difficulty. Having driven both types I think that there should be some additional training/instruction given when somebody wants to drive an automatic.
Thankfully because of the low speeds involved nobody was hurt, but it does make you think. Any views on this.
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Any views on this.
None that haven't been mentioned a hundred times before.
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>> Any views on this. >> None that haven't been mentioned a hundred times before.
That's a bit cruel, there would be no backroom as most subjects to discuss have been done one way or another before.
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That's a bit cruel, there would be no backroom as most subjects to discuss have been done one way or another before.
Sorry. I'd just been looking The Dibb, a Disney forum. People asking *exactly* the same questions over and over again is ruining the experience.
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>>That's a bit cruel, there would be no backroom as most subjects to discuss have been done one way or another before.
Also there is a fair turnover of contributors so there are probably a lot of people now on the forum who would not have had a chance to put their opinions when the topic was first raised.
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None that haven't been mentioned a hundred times before.
Quite!
Lets not turn this thread into yet another "left foot braking is better than right foot braking" discussion.
DD.
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HJ's view in the FAQ's..
Because in the absence of a clutch to separate the driven wheels from the engine it's the only way to remain in full control of an automatic, especially when manouvering. An engine may surge at any time, either due to a fault, due the engine ECU protecting the catalytic converter from unburned fuel, or due to driver error or muscular spasm. In the time it can then take to get the right foot from the accelerator to the brake a child could be run over and killed (there were three such cases within days of each other in September 2003). In addition, elderly drivers are known to have become confused and instead of braking with the right root have stabbed the accelerator.
That's why I recommend elderly drivers to to think very carefully before making a switch from a lifetime of manuals to an automatic. Often it's too late to safely make the change. The problem with automatic transmission is that, unless the driver drives 'two footed', he or she has far less control over the car than over a manual ? which is why we read of many deaths and injuries caused by 'out of control' automatics. What usually happens is that during the engine's warm-up phase, or if the engine has been over-fuelling, the electronic control unit raises engine revs to above the point at which drive is taken up in the transmission, and the car starts to move. The driver may then panic, attempt to brake heavily, but hit the accelerator instead of the brake, and the car either crashes or runs someone over. (The phenomenon even has a name: 'Sudden Acceleration Syndrome'.) You cannot predict precisely when the car's ECU will increase revs independently, so my advice is to only buy an automatic if you can teach yourself to brake with your left foot at least while manoeuvring, which keeps the car fully under control. Skilled drivers left-foot-brake automatics ? and even manuals ? all the time, but not everyone can get their heads around the technique for everyday driving, especially if they switch between the two types of transmission.
Two further examples of death by right foot braking of automatics:
A retired driving instructor was manouvering his Mini automatic in a supermarket carpark using only his right foot as he had always taught his pupils. Either the engine surged or he had a spasm. He quickly tamped his right foot on the brake, hit the accelerator instead and the Mini went into a wall. He died of his injuries.
A man was parking his BMW automatic in a Hong Kong multi storey car park. Either the engine sudddenly surged or the driver had a spasm. He tried to brake. Hit the accelerator instead of the brake. Crashed through the safety barrier and plunged six floors to his death.
The technique is as follows:
Right foot for the accelerator; left foot for the brake. Best employed while manoeuvring to retain total control over the car rather than losing it in the time it takes to move the right foot from accelerator to brake. But with practise the skill to use it all the time can be developed, with no problem of confusion when you get back into a manual. Can also be used on a manual, of course, but that really does take skill.
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"That's why I recommend elderly drivers to to think very carefully before making a switch from a lifetime of manuals to an automatic."
Quite right. I had very little experience with automatics (just a couple of hire cars in the USA) till I bought one 4 years back at age 71. No bad mishaps, but one or two such scares have lead me to revert to stick shift.
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Sounds like it happened out of carelessness, not out of need for additional training. If he had always driven with a clutch then he was used to that, no doubt had the new car been a diesel then he would have ended up putting petrol in it at some point!! Auto's are easier then manual's but like anything new you have to take your time and adjust. I normally use a minimum of 3 different vehicles a week, some of them I may never have driven before, most will have different types of gearbox, some auto some manual, some a hybrid of the two, you just have to take things slower and allow yourself more room and time, which this guy obviously didn't. Not the first accident involving older people and Auto' either, thankfully this one didnt result in the sort of injuries that the others seem to. Maybe we should just ban drivers over the age of 60!!!
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If the forum 'search' button was more prominent and used more, with regulars pointing to previous threads, then there might be the outside chance of reducing multiple threads with identical content.
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15 odd years ago I was on a forecourt in Kent when an out of control auto Honda knocked over a petrol pump, two kids in the car, very nearly a tragedy.
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Automatic transmissions do not go out of control - the driver is 99.999% to blame. Left foot braking ensures that this type of car park bump is minimised.
As HJ says, at a certian age, never go from Manual to Auto, an accident is almost bound to happen. The driver in this case, should have given up driving and got an account with a taxi firm.
--
Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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Thanks for pointing out the Forum Search facility. It does seem there are a lot of threads on the subject and other related subjects.
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Thanks for pointing out the Forum Search facility. It does seem there are a lot of threads on the subject and other related subjects.
As I have written before, I think that a link to the Forum Search at the head of the 'New Topic' page together with text along the lines of "Find existing threads related to your question" would be an asset to encourage its use. Yes, the Back Room survives in such a healthy state because of the equally healthy debate, but given the amount of cross referencing that goes on and that the Forum Search appears to be 'invisible' to the majority of newcomers, I think this would be useful.
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>>My point is that there seems to be a misconception that >>driving an auto requires less skill than a manual and that if >>you can drive manual then naturally one can drive an auto >>without much difficulty. Having driven both types I think >>that there should be some additional training/instruction >>given when somebody wants to drive an automatic.
I wholeheartedly agree. We have 4 cars in my family, one of which is a large powerful auto estate. The other are all manual and I can switch with no problem at all. What I can't master is 2 foot control in the auto. When I have tried this I always apply the brake far to heavily and do an emergency stop.
I suspect this is due to me using my left foot for the clutch n the manuals and this need more force. I guess that if I drove an auto only, then after a period of time I'd get this right.
However, I have no problem with 1 foot control with my left just resting on the foot rest.
Re training for automatics, I think this is a good idea. When my wife drives the auto, she seems to have a problem with just turning the key and then putting in D and moving off. Seems to think it's far to simple. After a few mile she's usually ok but still appears to think that autos are more difficult to use than manuals. I guess this would change if she drove one all the time.
In inexperienced or novice hands an auto can be deadly - if you floor the gas pedal the car will take off like a scalded rate and not stop. It will not stall as is possible/likely on a manual - if a manual doesn't stall you only have 1st gear available but an auto is not restricted in this way. I would say that almost all if not all accidents where an auto has 'lunged forward' are down to driver error by simply pressing the wrong pedal.
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There is surely no need to touch the accelerator when manouvering.
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There is surely no need to touch the accelerator when manouvering.
On this note; I drove a friend's AMG C32 Kompressor Estate a few weeks ago. The amount of creep at tickover in first gear was more like a canter!
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I have contributed to this topic before. I never drove an automatic until I was past 50 years old and I have never had a problem with them. I use my right foot only and if I want to park the car, or move at a crawl, I keep my right foot over the brake and use the brake to control the movement of the car. As I have said before, people can hit the throttle pedal accidentally in a manual car, just the same, and dipping the clutch will not stop the car, as I was told quite bluntly when learning to drive. If I have any problem now, it is going back to a manual box and forgetting to use the clutch in time, on very rare occasions, when coming to a halt. The juddering soon wakes me up.
I was a victim of such an accident attack involving an old lady in a manual Volvo, several years ago. She just kept her foot flat down to the floor on the throttle pedal, for what reason I don't know (I never found out). Luckily for me, she only clipped the rear wing of my car, which did nothing to halt her progress. The wall of a house stopped her eventually but not before she had demolished the owners garage wall. She was a very lucky lady, as she wasn't seriously hurt and didn't cause injury to anyone else.
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If I have any problem now, it is going back to a manual box and forgetting to use the clutch in time, on very rare occasions, when coming to a halt.
>>The juddering soon wakes me up.
Or going back to an auto, slowing down to a low speed by taking your foot off the gas and attempting to dip the clutch just before stopping.
Passengers do not like this attempted procedure.
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and that the Forum Search appears to be 'invisible' to the majority of newcomers, I think this would be useful.
But it's given a mention in the Annoucements section. Obviously not a place a newby heads when they first arrive here?
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=33878
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But it's given a mention in the Annoucements section.
Well spotted ;o)
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Obviously not a place a newby heads when they first arrive here?
Obviously not if the number of times I've though "Jeez, here we go again" is anything to go by or the number of times I've pointed other BRers to existing threads that I remember (and then use the Forum Search to locate on their behalf). I'm not alone in this an other BRers do exactly the same, hence the suggestion.
I have also helped design commercial web based self service applications where the last thing on the mind of someone with a question is to think about looking for an existing answer; unless reminded (or mandatorily "guided" but that is too strong here) they go directly in to "launch" mode and I guess most BRers are the same.
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The VW Golf auto has an interlock such that you have to have a foot on the brake to move out of P or N. It's brake pedal is offset to the right so left-foot braking would be difficult.
Incidently, to counter the ageism arguments, I understand that young people in manual cars have accidents occasionally!
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If a driver cannot drive an automatic car safely and confidently they really should not be on the road,whatever their age,i really think it is that simple.
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"The VW Golf auto has an interlock such that you have to have a foot on the brake to move out of P or N. It's brake pedal is offset to the right so left-foot braking would be difficult."
So do Audis. I really can't see why this isn't a standard fitting on all automatics. Most drivers of automatics put their foot on the brake as a matter of habit when engaging D or R (whether with right or left foot), but people new to automatics or those who only occasionally drive them could have a problem.
I agree that additional training should be available - I'm sure most driving instructors would give it gladly for a suitable fee - but the people who need it most won't do the training.
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My 1997 Mitsubishi has an interlock, too. The brake must be pressed to move out of park. My old Jag, (84 XJ12 Auto) doesn't have this. In both, I keep my right foot over the brake when manoeuvering, and the car moves at about 1mph at idle, which is perfect for parking. When I first got a car with an automatic transmission, I found that far from using the left foot for braking, I had to physically tuck it back under the seat, out of the way. When coming to a halt, it was far too easy for it to launch itself at where it thought the clutch pedal was, and catch the side of the brake pedal on the way down. A very nasty experience. Tucking it out of the way meant it might twitch at the wrong time, but rarely did any damage.
Having used both auto and manual for some years now, I've adapted and rarely mix them up. I did get a moment of juddering to a stop a few weeks ago, though, in an unfamiliar manual car, so I gave myself a quick wake-up.
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My fave is a colleague in a "clutchless manual" hire car (A-class Mercedes I think) who gave the driver behind brown pants; with zero car familiarity, a business meeting to get to that he was already late for and which was occupying his mind, and having declined the offer of an explanation from the rental clerk, approaching the airport roundabout at a rate of knots matey pressed the "clutch" to the floor as he downshifted to race round only to find it was the brake...
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Can you find a few seconds, Truckersunite, to tell us what sort of lorry gearbox is a combination of manual and automatic? I'm intrigued. When my dad drove trucks there were lots of range changers and two-speed axles and things like that - two or three gearlevers sometimes - but it was before the days of lorry autoboxes. Can they be like the one on my Prelude, with a sequential shift option?
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All Japanese market autos have a shift lock,you have to have your foot on the brake before it will go into drive or reverse.This is the law and has been for a very long time.Of course here in Europe we dont need that,parking sensors and leather seats are far more important.
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I have a manual on the wife's car and auto on mine. I use pool cars all the time at work all of which are auto. There is no trouble switching from manual to auto or vice versa. You just need to stop and make a mental check of things before you start off. Pause a moment and check the controls and you will be right. Jump in, start up and head off without thinking and you are asking for trouble. As said above you need to put your right foot on the brake when engaging drive or reverse with an auto because of the creep. Do that and you will be fine.
Now foot operated parking brakes - that is a different matter. I have hit them a few times without thinking. And don't talk to me about driving a Mini with work boots on. I hit the brake for an emergency stop and my boot got the accelerator as well! Gave the lady crossing the road in front of me quite a fright! Luckily she made it but she should have gone and got a lottery ticket straight away because her luck was obviously going well.
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I occasionally drive an automatic and have no trouble adjusting to it. However, I can't get used to left foot breaking, it just feels awkward so I don't do it.
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