{Several separate threads recently all discussing pretty much the same thing, so I've combined them all into the one thread. DD}
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I went to fill up this afternoon and was surprised to find that the price of petrol had overtaken diesel. Is this happening in other places?
For the record, diesel was £1.06, petrol was £1.07
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Where on earth were those prices? I saw diesel today in Bedford at 99.9/litre. I normally see a 4p to 5p difference with petrol being the cheaper.
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Where on earth were those prices?
A remote spot in the Highlands - as per my profile.
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Filled up at Sainsburys in Northampton today, City Diesel was 95.9p/litre with petrol 93p/litre or thereabouts.
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I have just heard on Radio 2 (Ime THAT old lol) that the Americans are buying up European petrol production as fast as they can to make up for their curent production difficulties. Thats what is causing the rise. Diesel isn't so popular in the Us, so the effect is less.
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I've alerady mentioned petrol prices on another thread.
Wednesday in Birmingahm (ESSO) 93.9p for Petrol and 94.9 for Diesel. Shell down the road was still doing 90.9p for petrol and 93.9 for Diesel. Guess where I went...
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I cannot believe we're bailing out the US. If they bailed us there would be string attached.
It's long overdue the US consumer understood the consequence of their excessive consumption.
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The US rule the world, don't they, as many of them are fond of telling the rest of us? Bush is fond of telling all and sundry that he won't do anything to threaten the US economy.
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It's not a question of us bailing them out, they are just buying the stuff on the spot market, and paying more than we would.
I doubt the US buys anything normally in Rotterdam, but they are now.
But it won't make that huge a difference to them, I very much doubt if enough petrol tankers exist, and those that do, I think are a lot smaller than a crude oil tanker.
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I went to fill up this afternoon and was surprised to find that the price of petrol had overtaken diesel. Is this happening in other places?
Oddly enough, in Bath one garage has diesel at 97.9 and unleaded at 99.9. Yes that is the right way round. It is known as a pricey garage though. I filled up in Bristol at 92.9 UL
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- I know that Government duties and taxes play a huge part, but why is it that in almost every other European country petrol is always significantly pricier than diesel? The UK's been the exception to the rule for several years now.
I'm sure that the principal reason for buying diesel cars here in France is the 20%+ difference in the cost of filling up. Simple as that.
It strike me that the UK diesel driver's been ripped off the past 2-3 years as the Government cashes in on the trend towards diesel motoring.
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Just what is the political stance behind this difference with most of Europe?
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Fuel prices are governed mainly by tax. Diesel is cheaper in Europe because the tax loadings are lower than on petrol, the other way round in the UK.
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Yes, I know that our diesel is dearer because of tax but why do we have a different attitude to taxing it?
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As ol' Gordon Brown is makin billions throgh extra oil revenue, I'm sure he'll reduce the tax burden on us ordinary motorist....not!!
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That is £4.86 per gallon, heading for that £5; and Toad does about 11 mpg on the back roads. A habit would be cheaper.
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Petrol 103.9, Diesel 99.9 in Tunbridge Wells today.
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Unleaded 93.9, Optimax 99.9, Diesel 94.9 in Flintshire yesterday.
I was putting Optimax in and have never experienced the litres and pounds on the pump rising in unison.....
PP
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Well, I have seen unleaded at 89.9 and diesel at 93.9 at Sainsburys in Derby today.
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>>I was putting Optimax in and have never experienced the litres and pounds on the pump rising in unison.....
>>PP
lol! That is exactly what i thought when i filled up with optimax yesterday!
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My wife bought Shell diesel at 91.9p/litre at a station between Derby and Nottingham at the end of last week.
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Three out of four BP stations near me have diesel at just a penny more than petrol, but it seems petrol has risen rather than diesel getting cheaper!
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This morning on radio 4 financial report it was stated by some expert that petrol prices should start to ease back before rising a little at christmas but the diesel price would go through the roof ,this is also confirmed by the futures on the energy desk this morning at work a 60% increase over the next few months seems to be the figure.It seems highly unlikely that gas oil prices will ease at all in the coming years making the running of oil fired boilers and diesel cars cost prohibitive.
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Just what will happen to all of those shiny new diesel cars in the showrooms if that scenario comes about. You are talking about a 60% increase in the pump price of diesel, or about something else?
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What about aviation fuel and airline imposed fuel surcharges? Any news on that score, please?
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What about all the commercial vehicles which run on diesel?
If the cost to run them becomes prohibitive, this country will come to a halt.
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a 60% increase?
Incredulity reigns here.
madf
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Aviation fuel rises are not so dramatic as these are tax free.
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Of course the chancellor could help by reducing the tax rate on diesel as was sujested on the radio this morning but do not hold you breath.Haulage companies will have forward bought and they received a tax incentive some while back.
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"Aviation fuel rises are not so dramatic as these are tax free."
Surely that's the wrong way around? DERV is approx 60p tax (I know it's not as straightforward as that!), so 40p is the cost of the fuel, making the street price £1. If the fuel price doubles, the street price goes up to £1.40 - a 40% increase. Jet Fuel on the other hand is not taxed so the street price is 40p / litre. If the price doubles, the street price does that also, a 100% increase - this is why the Americans are squealing about 'gas' prices, because the high tax is not insulating them from price rises.
Wow, a reason for high fuel taxes. Pretty thin though....!
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RichardW
Is it illogical? It must be Citroen....
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I can't what would make diesel prices would skyrocket by 60%while petrol prices ease. Both fuels come largely from the same raw material - crude oil. Growing demand for diesel could push up prices but not that much.
Maybe this is just wishful thinking by Clarksonist petrolheads!
Cheers, Sofa Spud
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Simple there is ample capacity in refineries to make petrol but because of the increase in requirement for diesel there is a world shortage and this inbalance will not be rectified for at least three years.It is not so simple to change a refinery and if it were you would reverse the problem and ahave a world shortage of petrol.
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the futures on the energy desk this morning at work a 60% increase over the next few months seems to be the figure.
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ah, futures trading! millions made and lost. remember nick leeson.
by the way, is your "60% ... seems " referring to pre-duty basic price or all inclusive price at the pump?
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The 60% is raw price,future gambling it is not you have to buy energy before you receive it,wholesale gas has already increased 110% this year for five year fixed price delivery contracts.We have had warnings of supply interuptions if there is a hard winter as we are totally reliant on imported gas , all oil trades through Holland for europe.We will be opening our coal mines again shortly,at present we have power stations running on nut shells brought in from Brasil because there is not enough clean coal available.
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Not quite sure which "Energy Desk" you are referring too.
All American Markets are closed for Labour Day.
On IPE Exchange, Brent Crude is dropping.
Production of Distillate, still more than Demand.
Refining of Distillate has become more expensive due to reduced
Sulpher Levels required by Legislation.
However a 6% rise by Xmas is possible, but unlikely.
Learjet
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We use mainly Bloomburg but have access to many more
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If the wholesale price of diesel goes up 60% on today's price then the pump price will be around £1.20p per litre. It's already nudging £1.00 so hardly the end of the world but because of all the HGVs using diesel it will add to inflationary pressures and the risk of recession and ironically cause interest rates to rise further (to reduce the risk of inflation).
For us private buyers the cost of fuel is still relatively small compared with the cost of depreciation.
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A couple of pence of a litre of petrol is a drop in the ocean. The real concern should be what it's costing haulage companies.
Oh yes, the greenies say "get the lorrys off the road". As if 38 ton artics just drive around the countryside for jollys. Those same greenies will be the first to complain if the supermarkets didn't have any food on their shelves next morning.
To tax road fuel so high is a big con by the Chancellor of the Exchequor. That increases transportation costs which are passed on to the retailer, and in turn to us, the buyer. VAT on the purchased goods is then increased also. So the treasury win hands down.
Someone is coining it at our expense, and us british people don't have the balls to stand up and protest. In 2000 we all remember the fuel protesters that almost brought the country to it's knees. That needs to happen again, and this time until firm action is taken to reduce tax on fuel.....
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Haulage Companies are VAT exempt.
A private motorist would 95.51p/litre for Diesel.
Haulage Company would pay 81.29p/litre.
Only the Import Duty of 47.10p/litre applies.
Anyone using a vehicle for business purposes can claim
a percentage, if not all of the VAT on Fuel purchased.
Only private motorists pay full amount of Duty/VAT on fuel.
Learjet
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1 Bbl of Crude Produces 16 UK Gals Petrol 45.72% of Barrel.
8 UK Gals Diesel 22.86% of Barrel.
16 Gals Crude cost 14.59pds/20.05p/litre.
Sells at 92.50p/litre/67.28pds.
8 Gals Crude cost 7.29pds/20.05p/litre.
Sells at 95.51p/litre/34.74pds.
Initial Purchase Investment = 21.88pds.
Realised Return = 102.02pds.
Margin on 16 gals Petrol = 52.69pds/361%.
Margin on 8 gals Diesel = 27.45pds/376%.
VAT+Duty on 16 gals Petrol.
Equals 60.87p/litre/44.27pds/84.03% of Margin.
VAT+Duty on 8 gals Diesel.
Equals 61.32p/litre/22.30pds/81.24% of Margin.
Margin on 16 gals Petrol = 8.42pds.
Margin on 8 gals Diesel = 5.15pds.
Costs on 16 gals Petrol = 3.64pds/24.95%.
Costs on 8 gals Diesel = 2.18pds/29.90%.
Margin on 16 gals Petrol = 4.78pds/32.76%.
Margin on 8 gals Diesel = 2.97pds/40.74%.
Profit Margin on 16 Gals of Petrol = 29.88p/gal/6.57p/litre.
Profit Margin on 8 Gals of Diesel = 37.13p/Gal/8.17p/litre.
Company retains 3p/litre/Petrol. Company retains 3p/litre/Diesel.
Equals 2.18pds/14.94% on 16 gals Petrol.
Equals 1.09pds/14.95% on 8 gals Diesel.
Retailer's Margin on 16 gals Petrol.
Equals 2.60pds/17.82%/16.25p/Gal/3.57p/litre.
Retailer's Margin on 8 gals Diesel.
Equals 1.88pds/25.79%/23.50p/Gal/5.17p/litre.
Station Costs are then deducted from these Margins.
31.43% of the Barrel still remains.
Spot the big winner.
Learjet
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Almost drove into the back of another car at 5am this morning while gaping at the price of diesel at my local Texaco. Now 98p per litre, a rise of 3p on last week.
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"For us private buyers the cost of fuel is still relatively small compared with the cost of depreciation. "
Not all of us.... annual fuel costs (£2400) are approx twice what I paid for the car 9 months ago (£1200), and 2.4 times the current value (£1000). So far, fuel = £1800, depreciation = £200.
Shudder - I prefer not to write that figure for annual fuel costs down! And that's only one of the two cars - at least the other does less miles.... Now where was that thing about running on veg oil???
Diesel here in Grangemouth currently 99.9 - and that's at the refinery gate - literally. Mostly 96 - 98 elsewhere locally (guess where I DON'T buy it!).
I see the retailers were complaining about not having enough figures on their signs to go above 99.9p/l - well they could just stop the stupid pretence of selling it in tenths of pennies - 99.9 is £1/litre to all intents and purposes!
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RichardW
Is it illogical? It must be Citroen....
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So what's everyone's local prices at now? I only ask because around by us, one garage is selling it (Unleaded) at £1.06 /litre. Interesting, diesel is actually 4pence cheaper...
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90.9 at the local Tesco garage.
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Around 94p in Leeds,I hear another blockade is planned.Although it may be due to oil prices etc.it does not stop the exchequer getting more VAT as the price goes up(not to mention charging VAT on the duty,that really is taking the michael).
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Oh good. I was thinking of getting a diesel car again...
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I think fuel tax will inevitably rise long-term. It's a matter of whether we have a 'soft landing' when the oil really starts to run out.
Many environmentalist spokespeople seem to be concentrating on pollution as the biggest problem, but the unsustainable growth in the consumption of finite resources is leading us towards an even bigger problem.
World temperatures might rise by 1 - 2 degrees, but winter will be extremely unpleasant with no gas or oil to heat our homes.
Renewables are the great hope, but we'll still have to learn to live with lower levels of energy use.
Cheers, Sofa Spud
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>>It's a matter of whether we have a 'soft landing' when the oil really starts to run out.>>
There's still enough oil reserves all over the world to last for at least another 100 years (unless the US and China really do go overboard with its use) - however it will cost more to extract it because of the locations and resulting difficulties.
I posted quite a bit on the subject a few weeks ago.....
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What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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I also read in today?s newspaper that there was a refinery blockade scheduled for next Wednesday (IIRC) which will target all UK petrol refineries.
In a different paper, (The Mirror), they had a list of filling stations which fell into price categories of 89.9, 88.9 and 87.9. Only one garage fell into the latter price band (somewhere in Scotland maybe? Can't quite remember). There were a handful of garages in the 88.9 price band, but the majority, 100s of them, fell into the most expensive price of 89.9.
2 of these were in very close proximity to me, both of them being Asda branded stations (Ashington and Blyth in Northumberland) charging 89.9. Shell charges in the region of 91.9 for unleaded (which is where I fill up). Sorry, can't recall the price of Diesel.
Incidentally, most of the garages in the list were operated by supermarkets, so it looks like are generally the cheapest places to go.
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www.overdrive.co.uk
Thats the link for fuel prices, similar to what AA Petrolbusters did.
VB
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Average price in West Midlands at present:
Unleaded = 95.03p/litre. Up 3.13p/litre.
Super Unleaded = 100.89p/litre. Up 3.20p/litre
Diesel = 97.68p/lire. 2.17p/litre.
Learjet
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Just tried the link - only seems to have 4 week old data...?
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Average Price across US for Reg = $3.069 up 45.9 cts/gal.
Or 6.58p/litre.
Average Price across US for Diesel = $2.898 up 30.8 cts/gal
Or 4.42p/litre.
Learjet
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just returned from france petrol prices from 98 p/litre to 112 p/litre, diesel about 81 p/litre. so we are a bit cheaper on petrol.But its about time we stood up to these petrol companies and the government and we woke up to the fact that we the british have been taken for a ride by these bullies for long enough.
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rustbucket (the original)
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"we the british have been taken for a ride by these bullies for long enough."
Quite right. Lets all buy our petrol elsewhere where it's cheaper.
err.. now where do we go?
If you think oil prices are inflated by bullying, please come back to planet earth..
madf
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"we the british have been taken for a ride by these bullies for long enough." Quite right. Lets all buy our petrol elsewhere where it's cheaper. err.. now where do we go? If you think oil prices are inflated by bullying, please come back to planet earth.. madf Well for a start do not buy petrol from the outlets that are predominently more expensive,if we all boycotted these then it would force prices down.Too many people just fill up without considering the price probably because they have too much money or are on company expenses.
secondly for the how many years I can remember we have been ripped off by these fuel companies just look at the profits they are making, true it comes from other sources other than petrol, but we are still an easy target as we all need fuel.Rather like we are being ripped off by Tesco / Sainsburys ect on food.We all need to wake up and realise that we are being taken for a ride by these companys.
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rustbucket (the original)
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Sorry but the profitss being made now are due to the cyclical nature of the oil industry. In 1998-1999 oil prices fell below $15 per barrel - in some cases below $12 - due to chronic overcapacity and the recession in Asia. At those prices, few oil companies made any profits through exploration and refining lost $$$$$$s.
So basically all exploration stopped as did all investment in new refineries.
Since then Chinese demand has increased 10-15% pa, Asian economies have recovered and oil companies have set $25 as the level they evelauate projects. If it don't make a profit at $25 it don't get done.
In addition the US Government employs a bunch of people at vast cost to forecast output and demand. It bases its policy on their forcasts.. And based on that NO-ONE would invest $1 in new capacity (of course they are wrong)
The US Government forecasts have no credibility imo. The US EIA eia.doe.gov/ complained two months ago that the oil price spikes were due to artificial factors (i.e hurricanes being anticipated). They kept stating oil prices would fall.
Mind you most oil analysts said the same.
About as reliable as economists: forecast often and eventually one forecast will be correct...:-)
More EIA forecasts January 2005...
Oil Prices Are Expected To Decline from Recent Peaks, Then Rise
In the AEO2005 reference case, the average lower 48 crude oil price (as distinct from the world oil price) is projected to decline from current levels to $24.50 per barrel (2003 dollars) in 2010, before increasing to $30.00 per barrel in 2025 (Figure 90). The U.S. price of oil, unlike natural gas, is set in the international marketplace. In the high A world oil price case, the lower 48 crude oil price is projected to be $33.65 per barrel in 2010 and $38.84 per barrel in 2025. In the low world oil price case, the lower 48 price declines to $20.44 per barrel in 2010, then remains relatively stable through 2025.
Between 2003 and 2010, crude oil prices are expected to decline as new deepwater oil fields are brought into production in the Gulf of Mexico and West Africa, new oil sands production is initiated in Canada, and OPEC and Russia expand production capacity. Near-term price expectations are highly uncertain, however, given the potential for political instability in many oil-exporting countries, which could significantly change the world?s oil demand and supply picture.
Uncertainty about world oil prices in the longer term is reflected in the low and high A world oil price cases. Crude oil prices are determined largely by the balance between production and consumption and the mix of OPEC and non-OPEC production. In the reference case, oil production and consumption in 2025 are balanced at 120 million barrels per day, with OPEC accounting for 46 percent of total production. The low oil price case projects production of 128 million barrels per day in 2025, with the OPEC share at 51 percent. The high A case projects 114 million barrels per day, with the OPEC share at 37 percent.
www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/aeo/gas.html
madf
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madf
you can manipulate facts and figures so that they can mean whatever you want them to.lets be honest the accountants of this world have been at it since accounts thought they were important.And as long as gulable people believe it then they cannot loose, but at the end of the day you and I are still being ripped off and taken for a ride.
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rustbucket (the original)
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>rustbucket.. I was an accountant.. If you don't believe prices rise when demand starts to exceed supply, then ..
madf
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>rustbucket.. I was an accountant.. If you don't believe prices rise when demand starts to exceed supply, then .. madf
well no suprise that you were an accountant then, speaks for itself.
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rustbucket (the original)
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Dear Rustbucket. Go and buy a book on basic economics. Read and digest. The answers are all in there.
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Anyone who pays forecourt prices is a fool. Those in the know get their petrol the cheap way.
www.petroldirect.com/index.htm
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petroldirect was mentioned the other day. Here is a bit of their Legal page...
" This is a parody site, not an actual trading corporation "
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