In the process of doing a deal on a 535d. Fully kitted I won't get change out of 39k. BMW535 v. C6 is a No Brainer.
Yes, at that price I agree, but they won't actually be selling for £38K, more like £25K, even for a fully loaded one. You might be prepared to pay £39K for a BMW, I certainly wouldn't.
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imo anyone - but anyone who pays £10k for a car with a Citroen badge has more money to spend than they have commercial sense.
As for £20k, well it's like a Fiat Croma.
£30k? you joke.
It won't be a good s/hand buy cos parts will cost in relation to the as new price.
Citroen vs Audi, or Volvo or Jaguar is no contest. I would not mention BMW in the same paragraph let alone sentence.
Never mind, tehre are some born any minute.
Apolgies to anyone who has ordered a C6 at full list price:-)
madf
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imo anyone - but anyone who pays £10k for a car with a Citroen badge has more money to spend than they have commercial sense. As for £20k, well it's like a Fiat Croma. £30k? you joke. It won't be a good s/hand buy cos parts will cost in relation to the as new price. Citroen vs Audi, or Volvo or Jaguar is no contest. I would not mention BMW in the same paragraph let alone sentence. Never mind, tehre are some born any minute. Apolgies to anyone who has ordered a C6 at full list price:-) madf
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Tell me, did you mean to insult anyone who owns a Citroen, or is it something you don't realise you are doing?
I think what you are saying is absolute nonsense but then I would wouldn't I. A C5 is a decent car, no matter what the detractors say, and has a level of equipment better than most for the price. I paid £10,000 for our 2.2 HDI Exclusive automatic when it was less than 18 months old and there wasn't a single alternative, diesel automatic at that price. As for parts, they need not be any more expensive than any car in the same class. I know, because we have owned a Xantia for over ll years. We actually paid more for Xantia 11 years ago than we paid for the C5 and for anyone to suggest that the Xantia wasn't a good buy is ridiculous. The Xantia has had less money spent on it per year than any car I have ever owned (allowing for inflation). People go on about heavy depreciation of Citroens but what does it matter if the car is kept for 11 years. What would be the depreciation on an 11 year old BMW over 11 years, when it has probably cost at least £20K?
Nobody need pay anywhere near full price for a Citroen these days and anyone who does is being rather foolish. At heavily discounted prices they are a good buy. Second hand, they are a very good buy.
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I also think that Citroen will not be targetting this country for its C6 sales - France and the continent will be its sales area.
Remember recently something on the news with lots of French politicians etc - maybe when they voted against Europe - the bigwigs were being driven about in Safranes and 605s( not 607s)! 605s (not 607)
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Something tells me I'd prefer to buy an 11 year old BMW than a 11 year old Citroen especially with a load of extras.....at least BMW's minimalist approach to electronics in those days mean that they are less likely to be fried.
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"at least BMW's...... they are less likely to be fried."
Hmmm, in 18 years of owning Citroens, I cannot recall an electrical fault bar the odd light bulb going - can't get much "less likely" than that - or have I just been lucky with the 5 I have owned (3 of which went well over the 100k mileage.
Give a dog a bad name? Still, the more you run down Citroens, the cheaper I can pick them up second hand and get years of reliable motoring for peanuts. How about buying a C6 and running it for 3 years to test your theory - after 3 years I'll buy it from you1
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It's a matter of list price v street price v VFM, reckon you could easily pay £50k list for a fully specced 535d, compared to £31k list for a Mondeo this does not seem to bad however you could get the Mondeo on the road for nearer £20k where as the BMW will still be well over £40k otr, over twice the price.
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Something tells me I'd prefer to buy an 11 year old BMW than a 11 year old Citroen especially with a load of extras.....at least BMW's minimalist approach to electronics in those days mean that they are less likely to be fried.
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I don't begrudge you your own choice but, of course, you will be paying a lot more for the 11 year old BMW and it won't come guaranteed free from problems. The comparison shouldn't be with an 11 year old Citroen anyway, which is worth next to nothing, but with a Citroen you could buy with the same money you would be paying for an 11 year old BMW. I saw an L plate 300 series for sale the other day and it was priced at over £3K.
I was once in car park, with the Xantia, when a BMW (not much older than the Xantia) parked next to me. It was overheating, having been in a traffic queue for a while. The driver told me it regularly overheated in such conditions. I told him he should get a Citroen. I have never had any problem with the electrics on our Xantia, the only thing that is not working on the car, at present, being the rev counter, which I don't consider worth repairing.
During the whole time I have had Citroens, people have been telling me how unreliable they are and how poorly they are built. They don't rust any more than any other car does (in fact they are a lot better than some, in this respect) and I would like to know how many cars at 11 years old would not have developed a rattle or squeak.
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>Xileno
My apologies. Not what I intended.
Despite my comments on new Citroens and their deprecaition, secondhand ones are very good value for money if they have been well maintained. Why? Becuase they are dirt cheap.
But a badly maintained one can be a money pit. The suspension does need maintenance and the ABS system on older ones goes AWOL - usually due to broken wires or poor connectors. And no regular antifreeze changes means HG failure at around 100k miles.
Lots of diesel Xantias for sale with 150k - 280k on the clock. So they cannot be all bad.
Having said that a BMW has inherently better electrical components imo...
madf
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>Xileno My apologies. Not what I intended. Despite my comments on new Citroens and their deprecaition, secondhand ones are very good value for money if they have been well maintained. Why? Becuase they are dirt cheap.
I don't understand why you don't think new Citroens are poor value for money, when they are cheap new too. The list price is irrelevant, it is what you end up paying for one that counts. A C5 2.0 HDI can be had for a little over £14000 and I just don't understand how this is not good value for money for a car of that size. As for depreciation, well that would mean the most that could be lost on it over a long period of time, is a lot less than you would lose from even the cheapest BMW or Merc.
Any car can be a money pit if badly maintained. Maintenance of the suspension? Any car is going to need maintenance on the suspension at some stage. For our Xantia it has amounted to the required hydraulic fluid changes, a replacement hydraulic pump, a small piece of tubing being replaced, plus a bit of foresight in fitting valves to the spheres, meant only periodic checks on the pressure and occasional gas top ups.
I wonder how much the cost of servicing and spares for a Citroen would stack up against the cost of the same for a BMW or Merc in the UK?
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Cock up in the first sentance. It should obviously be ''I don't understand why you think new Citroens are poor value for money'' and not ''I don't understand why you don't think new Citroens are poor value for money''
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A complete set of replacement shocks, springs, and bushes on any recent BMW or Merc are not cheap.
BMW's in particular seem very prone to needing numerous sets of bushes replaced at surprisingly low mileages.
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It's not valid to compare Citroens with either BMW or Mercedes. Try Ford or Vauxhall instead. (volume vs volume car).
madf
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I also think that Citroen will not be targetting this country for its C6 sales - France and the continent will be its sales area.
Remember recently something on the news with lots of French politicians etc - maybe when they voted against Europe - the bigwigs were being driven about in Safranes and 605s( not 607s)! 605s (not 607)
I'm sure this is correct - the market in the UK is probably the French Ambassador and his senior staff.
These are 'flagship' cars, to show what a manufacturer can do - they don't seriously expect that anyone will buy one.
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Well I bought a Peugeot 605 and loved it....until the cambelt got yanked by the snapped auxiliary belt and broke the top of the engine!
I would have another 605 today if I could find a pristine one.
--
Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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Well I bought a Peugeot 605 and loved it....until the cambelt got yanked by the snapped auxiliary belt and broke the top of the engine! I would have another 605 today if I could find a pristine one. -- Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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I drove one once and I agree with you, it was a lovely car. Great handling, great ride and bags of space. I often think I made a mistake in not buying it but it seemed too much money at the time.
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It's not valid to compare Citroens with either BMW or Mercedes. Try Ford or Vauxhall instead. (volume vs volume car). madf
I don't totally agree with you. You were talking about the massive depreciation of Citroens and the cost of maintenance, etc. You may consider that BMWs and Mercs are good value for money in the UK and in doing so it is valid to compare the relative cost of owning one.
When I buy a car I look at it as a cost and benefit exercise and what I want the car for. A BMW would be nice but not at twice the price of a Citroen. I don't ever intend to spend much more than £10K on a car(at today's prices) and I intend to keep running costs down as low as I can too. If ever a car proved to be a money pit, it wouldn't be here long. I don't discount other makes from the equation but I generally end up measuring what they can provide compared with a Citroen.
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It's not valid to compare Citroens with either BMW or Mercedes. Try Ford or Vauxhall instead. (volume vs volume car). madf
I think it is a valid comparison, i.e. it is quite legitimate to compare a Mondeo with a 3 Series, likewise if Citroen produce a large exec car it is ok to compare it with a 5, the issue is that the BMW badge brings a higher price, hence in the same way that you get a lot more Mondeo for 20 grand than you do 3 series, a 25 grand Citroen will compare in spec terms with a 35 grand BMW. The issue though is residuals.
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605's were big. I once worked for a large corporate, a couple of colleagues had 605's as company cars, we used to joke that if there were no meeting rooms available we could always use one of the 605's in the car park.
I had a 607 hire car a year or so ago, 2.2 petrol, bland and boring to drive. Must say I find this with all Peugeots these days where as Citroens (and Renaults) have character and gallic charm. Gone are the days when Peugeots were solid and dependable, 504, or pioneering 205 & 405.
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Few cars these days are as solid as the 504. But there are safer cars as one would expect, given modern technology.
I would say the 1007 and 407 are quite pioneering.
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Not sure I'd have one but the 407 estate is probably one of the nicest looking estates at the moment.
The saloon ain't half bad either.
--
Adam
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This comment can only come from someone who drives a Focus saloon...the front of the 407 looks like a trout and the rear of the estate looks worse than the Ssyanyong Rodius.
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Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
It's gorgeous, like a Ferrari.
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I was thinking more of the back of course E. Incidentally, I think you car looks pretty nice....
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Adam
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Where as, for instance, the Modus exudes charm and flair the 1007 exudes funtionality at the expence of any character.
The 407 is certainly different on the looks front, though IMHO completely and utterly misses the mark, it is just not attractive, the Laguna, the C5 (yes, the new C5) and even the Primera are much better looking not to mention the 3 Series, Mondeo, Vectra, Passat etc.
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I think the 407 is a stunning looking machine.
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Well the world would be a boring place if we all liked the same things.
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I think the 407 is a stunning looking machine.
Stunning?, to clarify it is the 407, the Peugeot 407 we are talking about here.
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Fine looking, especially the sw.
I think the front looks pretty good too.
Better than the new blander than blant passat, audis, primera, accord, 3 series, vectra....
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I think it is a valid comparison, i.e. it is quite legitimate to compare a Mondeo with a 3 Series, likewise if Citroen produce a large exec car it is ok to compare it with a 5, the issue is that the BMW badge brings a higher price, hence in the same way that you get a lot more Mondeo for 20 grand than you do 3 series, a 25 grand Citroen will compare in spec terms with a 35 grand BMW. The issue though is residuals.
To be fair, residuals have to be compared over the whole life of a car and at different stages of a car's life. They also have to be compared against the purchase price and not the list price. A car like a Citroen will depreciate a lot in the first one to two years but after that, the rate of deprecation will be much less. That makes them a very good second hand purchase. A two year old BMW will still be an expensive car though.
A 10 year old Citroen will be worth very little but it will have depreciated a lot less than a ten year old BMW.
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True, therefore a Citreon is only a good new buy if you are going to keep it for many years, i.e:
£25k Citroen / £35k BMW, value after:
1 year, 20k miles - £9k / £27.5k (BMW + £7.5k)
4 years, 80k miles - £3k / £13k (even)
10 years, 150k miles - £500 / £3000 (Citroen + £7.5k)
This is very approx though illustrates the point.
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I would guess that those prices won't actually be that when it's actually launched...at least not for long a couple of months after launch I'd expect to see it with a starting list price of about £24k, maximum. There's a couple of reasons for this:
a) It would create a huge (£8k) gap in the Citroen range from C5-C6 (which they wouldn't fill because of the numbering).
b) I can't imagine Citroen would market much, if any higher, than rivals such as the Vel Satis and 607 BEFORE discounting.
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How much did a Vel Satis retail for when it first came out?
Damned ugly cars but are they any good?
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Adam
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I think it was about 26k, wasn't it? I quite liked the looks, actually...at least you knew what you were looking at.
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It would have been a lot nicer had the headlights been a little wider and the boot a little longer.
It's the little things.....
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Adam
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But the new 5-series is full of little details, and it's ugly. AND this morning one parked outside my window...at a glance, it's side profile said 'Passat' to me...a Vel Satis is a Vel Satis. A C6 is a C6. French design rarely looks like anything else - and I admire them for that. But no one will pay 28k for the priveledge...
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I'd loe to continue this conversation but I think a lot of people would get upset if we went off discussing the Vel Satis.
I will say this though. I agree completely with you in as much that the VS is certainly different.
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Adam
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True, therefore a Citreon is only a good new buy if you are going to keep it for many years, i.e: £25k Citroen / £35k BMW, value after: 1 year, 20k miles - £9k / £27.5k (BMW + £7.5k) 4 years, 80k miles - £3k / £13k (even) 10 years, 150k miles - £500 / £3000 (Citroen + £7.5k) This is very approx though illustrates the point.
I don't think your figures are correct. Aside from the C6, you wouldn't be paying £25K for any Citroen and to say it would only be worth £9k after one year is somewhat out too. I paid £10k for our C5 at just under 18 months old (and 13k miles), when the list price was around £19k, but I doubt if the person who bought it paid £19k for it. If I were to buy the equivalent C5 now, brand new, it would be a little over £17k, the list price being nearly £22k, which is why I said in an earlier post that list prices have to be ignored in any comparison. The dearest C5 you can buy is the 2.2 HDI auto estate and that comes in at just over £18k. Of course, the price can be boosted with extras but they are well equipped anyway, and you couldn't add more than about £4k to the price, even without discounts.
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I said the figures were approx, just to illustrate a point.
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I said the figures were approx, just to illustrate a point.
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To be approximate your figures have to be fairly accurate and I don't think your figures are. Otherwise the ilustration is distorted. I stand by my assertion that even when new, Citroens represent very good value for money.
The figures I quoted were for C5 Exclusive models and I don't think they represent the best value in the C5 range. The VTR models are much better value, as they attract discounts that are nearly as big as those offered on the Exclusive models, and they are still very well equipped cars. The cheapest Ford alternative is still more than the C5 VTR.
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I think it is clear that whether based on list or discounted price Citroens depreciate quicker than Fords, and Fords quicker than BMW's in the first few years, notwithstanding this there is a point in time after three or four years or so where the lower original purchase price of the Citroen, or perhaps Ford, offsets the greater depreciation therefore if you keep your new car longer than this you will certainly be better of with a Citroen, or perhaps Ford, than a BMW.
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"It's not valid to compare Citroens with either BMW or Mercedes"
Totally valid when they are trying to flog you a Citroen for £38k !
I'm not anti Citroen when compared to a Mondeo or Vectra they are left field alternatives, but there are far more horror stories about C5s than for any equivelent GM or Ford model. I accept that the stree price for the C6 will be a lot more realistic.
11 years down the line I would be far happier to look for bits for my elderly BMW than for a niche model Citroen. I actually did this recently for an old 3 series, managed to get a BMW steering rack off the shelf locally...and in all honesty the cost was not that bad whn compared to modern day Fords etc.
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11 years down the line I would be far happier to look for bits for my elderly BMW than for a niche model Citroen. I actually did this recently for an old 3 series, managed to get a BMW steering rack off the shelf locally...and in all honesty the cost was not that bad whn compared to modern day Fords etc.
The cost was not that bad? I bet that means it cost more. Looking for bits for our Xantia holds no fears for me whatsoever, I just go to the independent garage where it is serviced. I do the same with the C5. There have been no extreme costs yet.
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"I bet that means it cost more. Looking for bits for our Xantia holds no fears for me whatsoever, I just go to the independent garage where it is serviced"
Power steering racks from GSF:
E36 BMW £189
Citroen Xantia £125
Case proven.
madf
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Funny, but I was reading the Sunday Times motoring section in which there was an article about a Honda Legend as a good 2nd hand buy. Mention was made of it costing something like almost £30k brand spanking new, but as a used buy with steep depreciation you could get it for less than about 1/4 of the new price after about 4yrs.
The thing that caught my eye was that in one particular year, Honda sold only 23 Legends in the UK, so even tho' it would be a good buy, it would be a nightmare getting hold of one (like trying to get rocking horse manure?)
Maybe if Citroen sold their C6 at over £30k it could vie with the Legend in the rarity stakes.
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new Citroen advert on video - updated to reflect new models:
xania.org/article.php/citroen
madf
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It is interesting to recall the price of cars a few years ago, as cars were generally more expensive, a few years ago, and todays cars are generally much better value. I recall the last of the Xantias being quite pricey and Citroen were not offering such generous discounts on the Xantia as they do now on their current model range.
I saw a Xantia for sale today that caught my eye. It is a 2000 W registered 2.0 HDI LX with 61K miles. It is about the same colour as ours, dark metallic green, and looked in lovely condition. It is priced at about £2900. I might go and have a closer look. Pity is that it is only the 90 bhp HDI.
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It is interesting to recall the price of cars a few years ago, as cars were generally more expensive, a few years ago, and todays cars are generally much better value. I recall the last of the Xantias being quite pricey and Citroen were not offering such generous discounts on the Xantia as they do now on their current model range.
Late model Xantias were expensive at list even after cashback. However if you went to the dealer with an offer from Drive the Deal in your pocket they fell to around £10k.
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Ok i think there?s been enough Citroen bashing on here from peolpe who belive everything in the media, now lets look at it in the real world, i don?t need to tell machika this because as per his previous posts he already knows the benefits.
I paid £800 (yes £800) for my xantia 18m ago it was about 7 years old had 90k on the clock (nothing for these cards) and the interior looks likes a car with 10,000miles (no exaggeration whatsoever), it has everything you would want from a car e.g. aircon, climate, plush velour trim, pleasant interior, remote everything (locking, alarm, deadlocks stereo controls), full exterior colour coding with metallic paint, naturally. Quiet and powerful 16valve engine, self-leveling suspension, 4 disc brakes fully powered. Lots of room inside and a cd input for my cd or mp3 player and many other features.
A new timing belt and catalytic at 63k, a new clutch at 80k, new spheres recently (all done by previous owner). How can any bmw or merc compare with that? Not to mention this car is not just anther eurobox drab on the road but it looks slightly different but smart too. When i tell people how much i paid for it they simply don?t believe me, why should they it looks great.
As regards service, well i brought sparks, air filter, fuel filter, and pollen filter and fitted them myself. National tyres changed the oil and filter for £20. So a service cost £50, can bmw or merc compete with that? In 18m all i have changed is the (original) battery and 4 new tyres. And apart from filling it with petrol, nothing else.
If i own the car long enough i may let the local specialist change the 4 comfort spheres for £150 or so, i may even try to change them myself. Name me a Mercedes or bmw where you change there all 4 springs for £150 (apart from your dreams) and add to that the benefits of hydro- pneumatic suspension such as the ride, self-leveling suspension and dual circuit braking system?
This is my first Citroen, and if the car remains equally reliable over the next couple of years or so, i will certainly consider a late mark 2 xantia as a replacement.
My xantia cost my £800, a that time a 3 series or c-class with similar miles and spec would be looking at £4-5k, i know which i would have anyway, it certainly isn?t the supposedly more superior German cars. We only need to look in the technical section to see how reliable modern executive German cars are!
So in summary as a second hand buy i believe hydro Citroens are much, much better value than their direct and non-direct competitors, and yes please please keep bashing Citroen because at the end of the day that will mean i get a bargain and leave it to the initiated for expensive new cars and dealer 'servicing'
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Ok i think there?s been enough Citroen bashing on here from peolpe who belive everything in the media, now lets look at it in the real world,
I will tell you about the real world, Citroen ZX bought new by my dad in 1995.
In first two weeks:
Speakers fell out out of mountings, wiring above passenger footwell dropped out (theresa lot of wiring there),window on passenger door required a new regulator. Citroen Badge fell off the back (hadn't been mounted properly,sums the car up really).
At the 1000 mile service they found water in the oil, and so it continued.
I'm sure not all Citroens are bad, but theres a far greater chance of getting a bad one.
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I'm sure not all Citroens are bad, but theres a far greater chance of getting a bad one.
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The build quality on the ZX wasn't great, I will admit, as I had a 1.4i from new, in 1994, that had a number of minor faults. It certainly didn't match up with the Xantia and it annoyed me at the time. The dealer I bought it from wasn't terribly interested in listening to my complaints, although I got all of the little faults sorted out eventually. It has left me with a great lack of trust in Citroen main dealers.
However, I ran it for over three years and it never let me down. It had good handling, an excellent ride, and returned a consistent 40+ mpg. The performance from the 1.4i engine was pretty good too and there was never a sign of trouble from the engine. I never had to top up the oil between changes and the same applied to the coolant. It was passed on to my dad and then to my sister, and I think she still has it.
I was amazed to read in Parker's guide that they consider the build quality of Xantias to be below average. It is not my experience and you can see lots of old Xantias around that still look pretty good. The paintwork and bodywork stand up to the test of time pretty well, and the interior trim too. The guide says they are prone to rust, which is absolute garbage. I was parked next to a J plate Toyota Corolla (that paragon of reliability and longevity) yesterday and it had completely rusted through the rear wheel arches.
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I think it is a valid comparison, i.e. it is quite legitimate to compare a Mondeo with a 3 Series
We've been over this before, I think you must be the only person who thinks that a Mondeo and a 3 series are direct competitors to each other! The 3 series is in a different market segment to the Mondeo. The probem as I understand it, and maybe I've understood it wrong, is that Citreon are going to try and pitch the C6 in the same segment as BMW's etc. Big mistake, volume manufacturers just don't do well in the luxury sector...
Blue
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If you want to read the mix of customer reviews of the C5, read here.
www.reviewcentre.com/reviews1096.html
There are some very happy owners.. and some very very unhappy ones.
A Citroen C6 will have to be of a quality where all owners are very happy: and any unhappy ones are sorted almost at once by the dealers. If you read the reviews of other Citroen models on the same site, you would have to say the chances of that happening - based on past performance - are low.
So the challenge for Citroen with the C6 is to make it well and ensure only the good dealers sell it /or upgrade the dealer network.
madf
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volume manufacturers just don't do well in the luxury sector...
Didn't BMW sell more 3 series in Europe than Ford did Mondeos.
If so, who is the volume manufacturer?
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With addition to be factually correct:
Didn't BMW sell more 3 series in Europe last year than Ford did Mondeos?
If so, who is the volume manufacturer?
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Ahh, but did BMW sell more cars, when you look at entire sales of each marque - no? Though undoubtedly BMW is becoming mass-market, I sometimes wonder if the Execs employed Bangle as an attempt to stop their market from getting any bigger...
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Ford is still the volume seller as they sell far, far more cars than BMW do.
Yes, the 3 series outstripped sales of Mondeo, I still don't think that they are in a comparable class, people who comfortably have the money to buy a 3 series don't bother giving the Mondeo a second glance (gernerally) and people who consider £15K a lot to spend on a car will be over the moon with their Mondeo Ghia X and wouldn't dream of wasting money by spending more on a 3 series and getting less equipment. The only point I've ever tried to make is that 3 series buyers and Mondeo buyers are generally different and that the cars are in different market segments, Ford never suggested the 3 series as a competitor to Mondeo, only Vectra, C5 and at a push, Honda Accord etc.
I believe the Mondeo may have done better in fleet sales than the 3 series, although I could be wrong.
Blue
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My point was simply that BMW *IS* a volume manufacturer by anybody's terms, as are Mercedes, Audi, Volvo, and so on. The wiseness of Citroën (or Ford, or Renault, or, or, or) selling in to 'upmarket' territory is thus more a matter of being hampered by a badge with humdrum image where one with perceived snob value is expected. Little else.
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"The wiseness of Citroën (or Ford, or Renault, or, or, or) selling in to 'upmarket' territory is thus more a matter of being hampered by a badge with humdrum image where one with perceived snob value is expected. Little else"
Sorry I disagree. BMW have a reliability and design ethos which works to ensure customer problems (if any) are solved. Quickly.
Citroen have not.
madf
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Part of the problem is that, particularly in the UK market, big and luxury are indivisible. I'd welcome something bigger than a Mondeo/C5 estate but don't want anything over LX trim ie aircon, basic CD and leccy windows cover my needs.
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"The wiseness of Citroën (or Ford, or Renault, or, or, or) selling in to 'upmarket' territory is thus more a matter of being hampered by a badge with humdrum image where one with perceived snob value is expected. Little else" Sorry I disagree. BMW have a reliability and design ethos which works to ensure customer problems (if any) are solved. Quickly. Citroen have not. madf
Citroën could make the world's best luxo barge by miles and give it perfect reliability but the target market would still avoid it because, well, it's a Citroën and images of French Farmers spring to mind. Just like all the droves who will happily pay over the odds for an Audi, but won't touch a ?koda with a barge pole. Just why does a badge matter?
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"...Just why does a badge matter?"
Do you live in the UK, SjB? Are there bears in the woods?
Trying to sell French cars to the bigoted British must be a salesman's nightmare....
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We've been over this before, I think you must be the only person who thinks that a Mondeo and a 3 series are direct competitors to each other! The 3 series is in a different market segment to the Mondeo.
This is frankly complete rubbish!!!
When people are choosing a car if they consider a Mondeo and a 3 Series as options then clearly the cars are competitors in the market, yes clearly the 3 Series goes further up market though in the 18-25k list price sector the Mondeo and 3 Series are head on.
I chose my current Mondeo as a company car (and bought it off the company 18 months later) at the time a basic 320d saloon and 318i SE Touring were (among others) options for me, also I have know people torn between a 320i and an ST220 etc.
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For goodness sake, you're both right.
Mondeo and 3 series are not in same market segment in terms of size/application. However as both have models at matching price points they "compete" for those who can make a choice between the larger, more practical but image neutral, Ford or the cachet of a Beemer in the drive.
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More people stay with BMW once they're hooked than other brands. I would like to think its that cheeky little rear wheel drive wriggle one can intice on days like today..., sadly the reality is that its a badge thing. If Citroen could guarantee BMW build quality (yes its still there I have owned plenty of them to tell)
and a slightly quirky rwd set up, I would buy one tomorrow, I concede that the C6 is a pretty car in the same sense as the old 5 series was. No-one (even me) would say that any current BMW sloon is a pretty thing. Its driving the blinking things I like to do !
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Bromptonaut - In a way I agree, we are both right, I understand what Cheddar is saying. an absoloutely top of the range Mondeo will set you back about £19K - £20K and funnily enough, a base model 3 starts at £20K. So, they do, just, at either extreme of their own section of the market, compete.
However, quite frankly to say that the Mondeo is seen as a competitor to the 3 series by most buyers is, quite frankly, rubbish. A buyer who is considering a Ghia X Mondeo is likely to be a company or fleet buyer getting a substanial discount, very, very few of these cars are sold to private individuals. What I'm trying to say is someone buying a Ghia X is unlikely to have the 3 on their list anway, and someone buying a 3 is quite possibly a private buyer (better residuals attract them) and so there's no way in hell that they would buy a £20K Mondeo that will be worth £6K in 4 years time.
Ford don't see the 3 as competition, I know this as I worked for them, and attended their own training events, never, ever, did they once suggest the 3 series was a serious competitor to the Mondeo. Vectra yes, C5 yes, 407 yes, Passat yes, but never 3 series, Audi A4 or Mercedes C Class for that matter.
The reason for this is simple, whilst Cheddar may drive a Ghia X or whatever, most people don't, they drive an LX or Zetec, these cars are at the bottom end of Mondeo pricing and start at around £13K depending on curent promotions.
You will hear very few of the people who come looking at Mondeo LX say "come on darling, lets go and decide between this Mondeo and that nice new 3 series we looked at earlier on."
So whilst I agree with you Cheddar that the Mondeo Ghia X and a BMW 3 series do have a very minimal price overlap, it is still totally ludicrous to say that this makes them direct competitors.
Mondeo pricing runs from about £13K to about £20K tops.
BMW 3 series pricing STARTS at £20K and runs up to about £31K.
Do those figures show cars that are in direct competition?
Like it or not, Ford is a mass market, mass produced badge that just doesn't have credibility in the executive sector. That's in no way a negative thing, I think a lot of the Ford brand, but I'm not under the illusion that it is a competitor to the 3 series and Mercedes C Class (now the 3 and the C ARE in the same sector as each other)
I'd be interested to hear anyone else's informed opinion on this to convince me that I haven't just got amnesia about a large section of my previous training...
Blue
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Should probably add that my post didn't look that long in the preview window!
Blue
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So it's a price thing is it? Are people elsewhere in Europe prepared to pay the kind of prices for BMWs and Mercs that we pay in the UK?
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Got no idea about the rest of Europe I'm afraid, I'm only talking about this country. In this country people are prepared to pay the higher prices for a better brand image and a better car, which is why the mainstream cars in the sector will always be in a different class from the BMWs and Mercs etc.
Most BMW drivers wouldn't consider a Mondeo (mainly for brand reasons and partly down to driving experience) and whilst I'm sure many Mondeo drivers would be happy with a BMW, they don't sell BMW's starting from £13K...
Blue
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Got no idea about the rest of Europe I'm afraid, I'm only talking about this country. In this country people are prepared to pay the higher prices for a better brand image and a better car, which is why the mainstream cars in the sector will always be in a different class from the BMWs and Mercs etc.
Does anyone know? I have heard it say that every taxi driver in Germany has a Merc.
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What I'm trying to say is someone buying a Ghia X is unlikely to have the 3 on their list anway,
Why not?, a company car buyer will have a budget based on list price or lease cost so a well specced Mondeo and a more basic 3 Series are likely choices.
and someone buying a 3 is quite possibly a private buyer (better residuals attract them)
Possibly though more 3's are sold as company cars than privatley in the UK.
and so there's no way in hell that they would buy a £20K Mondeo that will be worth £6K in 4 years time.
The point is that the street price for the 20k Ford will be nearer 16k so in the buyers mind they are paying a premium of perhaps 7 or 8k for a similary specced BMW which might well be worth more than the Ford after four years and needs to be. 16k to 6k = 10k depr, 24k to 14k = 10k depr.
Comes down to HJ's point, if you spend 5 grand on a Ford, you get a 5 grand car, spend 10 grand on a BMW you get a 5 grand car and a 5 grand badge.
Ford don't see the 3 as competition, I know this as I worked for them, and attended their own training events, never, ever, did they once suggest the 3 series was a serious competitor to the Mondeo.
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Perhaps an example of the moptor industry being out of touch with it's customers.
The reason for this is simple, whilst Cheddar may drive a Ghia X or whatever, most people don't, they drive an LX or Zetec, these cars are at the bottom end of Mondeo pricing and start at around £13K depending on curent promotions. You will hear very few of the people who come looking at Mondeo LX say "come on darling, lets go and decide between this Mondeo and that nice new 3 series we looked at earlier on."
That is like saying that a 318i customer won't consider an A6 3.0 as an alternative, it is a simply matter of price point.
So whilst I agree with you Cheddar that the Mondeo Ghia X and a BMW 3 series do have a very minimal price overlap, it is still totally ludicrous to say that this makes them direct competitors.
Mondeo pricing runs from about £13K to about £20K tops. BMW 3 series pricing STARTS at £20K and runs up to about £31K. Do those figures show cars that are in direct competition?
3 Series saloon list prices are 19.9 to 32k, Mondeo saloon/hatch 14.5 to 25k. More than a minimal overlap!
to convince me that I haven't just got amnesia about a large section of my previous training...
Aha that explains it, brainwashed by the motor trade ;-).
The fact is that I had a wide choice of cars as a company buyer including BMW and Audi and chose a Ford, now as a private buyer a 320d Touring appeals as does a 2.2TDCi Mondeo, the former would cost 22k from a broker, the later approx 16k though I know I would get more for the BMW when I sell it so real term costs are similar, they are to me direct competitors.
Blue, you might say with your motor industry training that an A4 should be the alternative to the 3 Series or that a Vectra should be the alternative to the Mondeo though neither appeal to me, to me the 3 Series and Mondeo are serious competitors unless the wife convinces me to go MPV.
Regards.
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Whatever Cheddar, to you as an individual they may be direct competitors, but to most people they are unlikely to be.
Your friend for example who was torn between an ST220 and a 320i is not a normal choice, on one hand a flagship 3.0 V^ Sports model and on the other an entry level family saloon. Most people are looking for one type of car or the other...
Blue
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Your friend for example who was torn between an ST220 and a 320i is not a normal choice, on one hand a flagship 3.0 V^ Sports model and on the other an entry level family saloon. Most people are looking for one type of car or the other...
Hello Blue,
Reckon this one has run it's course, just to say that a couple of years ago a 320i 2.2 and an ST220 were similar list price, both 4 door family saloons, hence both relevant on the company car scheme in question.
Regards.
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Most people are looking for one type of car or the other...
Most may be - but there are a substantial minority of people who are not. They have a budget, and are willing to look at cars in more than one different category as long as it fits the budget.
A few years ago we were looking for a new car - budget about £9000. We test drove various superminis. We ended up buying a Berlingo, which was comfortably within budget. The funny thing was that we test drove a Clio, and the salesman suggested we might like a Megane when we said we found the Clio a bit short of space. He never suggested a Kangoo, and we didn't think of looking at it either.
Car buyers frequently (probably more frequently than is recognised) don't tend to think in neat categories.
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>> Most people are looking for one type of >> car or the other... Most may be - but there are a substantial minority of people who are not. They have a budget, and are willing to look at cars in more than one different category as long as it fits the budget.
Car buyers frequently (probably more frequently than is recognised) don't tend to think in neat categories.
And by that same logic the MGTF and Ford Focus are direct competitors as they were both on my shortlist when I was looking for a car recently.
I never said that for some people, Cheddar included, cars from different market sectors won't be in competition, they were for me too. That doesn't however mean that they are in the same market sector which is what seems to be suggested earlier...
Blue
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In the process of doing a deal on a 535d. Fully kitted I won't get change out of 39k. BMW535 v. C6 is a No Brainer.
Lemme see. The BMW says bling, hurts-the-eyes styling, and likely to be driven on the bumper of the car in front. The Citroen looks different, avoids the stigma of the BMW image, and is likely to be allowed out at junctions.
So I can guess which car the folks with No Brains wil buy. It won't be made in France :)
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She's back.
Hooray!!!
I mean erm...that's good....I s'pose.
--
Adam
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I thought you would be pleased. ;-)
Blue
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Some say they are preparing completely new LHM for the C6 due to much more sophisticated hydro-stuff than ever before in Citroen's history.
- - - - - - -
I am the only Pole over here.
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The C5 doesn't use LHM - its uses LDS which is a synthetic formula similar to power steering fluid but is significantly more expensive.
LDS was manufacturered by Total for Citroen and I'd be surprised if the C6 used something different.
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