I have tried twice to get an answer to a question in two other threads. Having failed, I will try again under a specific topic title.
How significant is (say) a 2% difference in the figures given in the J D Power tables? The table for 2005 (UK I assume) shows a difference of 11.4% between the top (Lexus at 84.8%) and the bottom (Alfa Romeo at 73.4%). The industry average is 78.6%, with Ford just above the average at 78.9%
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Does nobody have an answer or opinion?
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Depends on the sample size I guess. If the sample size is small i.e. under 100 than each 1 unit could swing a % by 2% (the difference between +1 and -1). So if you poll lots (1,000s) of Fords but only 50 Lexus then a difference of 1 Ford would make very little impact whilst 1 Lexus could change the % by a maximum of 4%.
IIRC JD Power in the UK polls users who volunteer to be polled? If correct you will get a positive bais on all samples (those who are indifferent will not bother and usually more are in favour than against any model - the impact of post decision justification).
madf
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Don't you think it more likely there will be more bias towards some cars than others? After all, if you look at the French survey, French cars do better there.
Having said that, how significant is a difference of about 2% between Ford and Renault, say.
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I think the problem is that most people are reluctant to admit they have bought a 'lemon' and will always defend their choice of car; and they have the opportunity to do so by volunteering for the J D Power survey.
It also depends on the weighting given to the various factors.
Given that Alfas look terrific, are great to drive, and have fiercely loyal owners, one could surmise that reliability is the factor that consistently keeps them at the bottom of most surveys.
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If people were that fiercely loyal to them, they might not be that keen to admit they aren't reliable. I think that there are lots of people in the UK who are fiercely loyal to Ford, as you can find in this forum every day and as I have experienced ever since I have been driving. I think that people are much more likely to condemn something they see as foreign, if they are at all unhappy with it.
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Probably the most important determinant of how significant this difference is would depend on the total sample size.
Secondly as a significant number of questions would have answers which have a subjective bias ,eg if one is unhappy with the car,then atleast some questions would be answered less favourably even though there may not be any other significant issues.
I wouldnt consider this a reliable/objective survey if for example it were to be compared with the findings from reliabilityindex.com which are actually based on the number of breakdowns.
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>most people are reluctant to admit they have bought a 'lemon' and will always defend their choice of car<
I'm not sure I agree with this. There are plenty of contributors here who claim to have bought a lemon Pug (for example) and tell us why all French cars are rubbish and they will never buy another. How do those people affect JDPower?
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I tend to agree with you. There is very little brand loyalty towards French cars, in particular, in this country.
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I tend to agree with you. There is very little brand loyalty towards French cars, in particular, in this country.
I'm not so sure about that - there is a small but hardcore following for Citroens and their hydropneumatic suspension and there is a massive following for sporting Pugs.
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As you say, it is a small following for Citroens. There is a rather larger following who thinks they are largely rubbish.
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Andrew,
Whilst I agree that French cars get plenty of criticism in the Backroom, I suggest little of that comes from owners.
Indeed I get the impression that most of the posts from owners are defending the reputation of French cars - "I have owned 32 Pug/Renault/Citroens over the last 44 years and all that has gone wrong is a puncture" etc
C
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Andrew, Whilst I agree that French cars get plenty of criticism in the Backroom, I suggest little of that comes from owners. Indeed I get the impression that most of the posts from owners are defending the reputation of French cars - "I have owned 32 Pug/Renault/Citroens over the last 44 years and all that has gone wrong is a puncture" etc C
Quite a lot of criticism has come from people who say they have been owners of French cars.
However, I did make the point earlier about the significance in the survey's figures. Just how much better/worse is a difference of 2%?
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If you go to France the great majority of cars you see are home-grown: they can't all be rubbish, and it certainly isn't that French drivers are all gentle with their cars.
Maybe it's something about the UK Renault / Citroen / Peugeot dealers? I had 7 Renaults - all excellent but so was the dealer (Cross Roads in Oxfordshire). Japanese cars and Skodas always come out well in the surveys, and you also notice very few complaints about their dealers.
I like French cars, but I think their reliability depends on their being serviced properly.
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"How significant is (say) a 2% difference in the figures given in the J D Power tables? The table for 2005 (UK I assume) shows a difference of 11.4% between the top (Lexus at 84.8%) and the bottom (Alfa Romeo at 73.4%). The industry average is 78.6%, with Ford just above the average at 78.9%"
Well to put it another way, the Warranty Direct claim statistics were on a thread here the other day - can't find it at the moment - and that had a pretty straightforward way of putting it:
Out of 100 cars of a particular make/model, X number had a claim in the last year.
IIRC, Honda were top with 2 in every 100 cars covered making a claim, whereas Landrover were bottom with 45 in every 100 making a claim.
This would seem to indicate that a Honda is MUCH less likely to let you down expensively than a Landrover is. Buying any car carries a gamble on it's reliability, but clearly the odds can be better or worse dependant on the choice you make.
Co-incidentally machika, you'll be delighted to see (if someone can find the thread i refer to) that French manufacturers actually came out ok.
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For surveys like JD Power, it all depends on the bias that is put on each section of their survey.
If reliability and driving enjoyment were considered equal factors, you might find Alfa et al in an ok position.
If reliability is considered much more important, then Honda, Toyota etc would likely be high up.
Presumably the weightings used are determined by market research of which factors are considered most important by the average motorist.
Alternatively you could be really sad like me and form your own extremely complicated Excel spreadsheet to give you the car of your dreams. Mine is weighted according to cost of purchase, running costs assuming set mileage/fuel prices, insurance, performance, depreciation over 3 years, creature comforts, practicality, predicted repair/servicing costs, and others.
My one happens to tell me that i want a Seat Ibiza FR TDi, or maybe a Peugeot 406 Coupe 3.0 V6. Both score around 12500 in my spreadsheet, but only beat my current '95 Escort 1.6 by 850 points. The Escort comes in last out of 11 choices.
Is the Escort only 7.3% worse a choice than the other two? I think not. For my spreadsheet, each point difference means something. It all depends on the weighting.
Or alternatively again, you could not waste company time creating ridiculously complicated spreadsheets, and instead go out, test drive the cars you like, read a few reports to gauge estimated reliability, then buy the one you really want.
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