certainly not a BMW - don't like the image they project or the premium they want you to pay for the "privilege"
-- go with an Audi if you must choose from your list
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Nice choice to have! The latest Audi's are IMO plain ugly, the 5 looks better than the 3 (though like the 5 did the 3 may grow on me), so with BIK in mind I would take the 530d, on the other had the 3 Touring looks fine, waht about a 330d Touring?
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Firstly, I don't want another Estate, its a pain having to remove every thing from the boot when on holiday or business abroad. Pulling the load cover across just adds to the "I've got something in the boot".
I love the new A4, but i'm worried it wont be as comfy as my Mondeo. When I got the Mondeo I ordered electric drivers seat which allows the base to be tilted to give perfect thigh support, i'm not sure if the A4's electic seat option allows tilt of just height adjustment.
What is the handling like on the A4. We always hear that the BMW is better, but i'm talking real world. I'm sure the BMW is better that my Mondeo Estate, but it still feels like a light agile car when your on a fun road... the same can not be said of my old SEAT Leon.
I've also considered the new C320 CDi, A4 2.0T FSi Quattro and the new Passat 3.2V6 (when it comes).
Neil
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Go with a quattro, I'd rather have 4WD, but then I'd buy a Subaru.
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I like the Legacy, but the emissions are high, and hence company car tax is high too.
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Neil,
The A4 Electric seats adjust in the manner you describe for your Mondeo and a couple of others too. Your local dealer will not have a problem sourcing a model with suitable seats for you to trial. They do have tilt adjustment though.
I find the A4 handling acceptable. It's not as precise as some cars sure the BMW will be better from a drivers perspective. There's much more feel in the current A4 than the previous generation. I find it more pronounced than the motoring press claim. The A4 does feel like a lighter car than it is, and a smaller car than it is to throw about. The 2.0T FSI is another beautiful engine, and definitely worth a trial.
The Mercedes you mention is not in the same class for handling, it's a very smooth, luxurious drive, rather than a responsive drive.
Ultimately the answer is test drive, your Audi dealer should be able to easily source a car to the engine/spec you want quickly.
Regards
Chris
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This may not be the case. It took me three months to find an A3 2.0TDi DSG for a test drive - at the time Audi wouldn't supply dealers with any more A3s - they'd had their quota and most were 3.2 V6s! I had to wait for an ex Head office car to be released for sale before getting to drive one.
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Classy, fast, understated saloon in that price bracket, how about an S-Type 2.7 V6 diesel? Good on BIK.
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As much as i'm not a badge snob (I'd quite happily drive a Toyota, Nissan or Mazda, in fact I do drive a Primera on the track), I'm not sure the S-type is the right image of a 28 year old, its more of a 30's+ car! :-)
--
Neil T
Mondeo Ghia TDCi 130 Estate, SEAT Toledo 20VT Sport, Various Montegos...
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I associate S types with those older than me i.e in their 60s.
( the original was obsolete when I learned to drive. Imo the new one looks no better with flabby overwide flanks at the rear: a wide flabby car for those of similar build:-)
madf
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The S type is the new Granada. Think about it, the X type is a bazzed up Mondeo (Sierra) and Ford make nothing in this country to fill the gap left by the Granada/Scorpio.
-- Lee .. A festivus for the rest of us.
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Oh right, sorry - the question. FWIW, the five series is one of the nicest places to find oneself these days. If it's an option over the 3, the 3 will lose all day long (assuming you can live with the £££s).
Audis just don't do it for me, apart from the A8. I've always preferred the Passat and the new Passat seems to be a better car than the A4 - certainly a lot better looking.
-- Lee .. A festivus for the rest of us.
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Hi cjehuk,
One question, did you test Autos or Manuals?
I've always been a manual guy, especially as I tend to tow about 1800kg (Track Car & Trailer), and have heard that that normally means fitting a gearbox oil cooler.
On the other hand, if I could find a good, quick shifting Auto (like the VW DSG Automated Manual unit) I could be swayed.
NEil
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Hi Neil,
You may or may not be aware but I've been working for my local Audi dealer for the past two summers whilst not at uni. As such have driven a fair number of the range. We've only had the 3.0TDI through as a Tiptronic, but the 3.2FSI as a Manual and a Tiptronic Quattro.
It's interesting you mention the DSG. My father has a Touran 2.0TDI DSG, and I was driving it "with pace" earlier and found it a real pain. I suspect because his does not have the paddles to shift with, and this makes the car a real pain to shift with. When driven really hard in auto/sport mode the diesel/DSG combo is IMO pretty lousy too. The transmission revs the engine to the Redline (4750rpm+) before shifting gear. Except in the 2.0TDI power falls off fast after that 4000rpm peak, leaving you with nothing except what feels like a sickening wait until it hits the next gear. When shifting down say you want to go from 5th to 3rd like you would in a manual the gearbox electronics will fight you. I'd do 5th to 3rd at about 45mph for a corner, with suitable throttling of course. The DSG will shift down to 4th, but it won't let you have third till your speed drops below 40. So you pull out of the corner and nothing. Works better with the wider rev band of the 3.2v6. On the other hand driven with paddles and knowing the engine it's possible to keep it on the boil better.
The best auto I've driven in terms of a fun drive was the A4 2.0TDI Multitronic (CVT box). That I was able to keep throwing about using the paddles and it felt as responsive and quick as a manual and I was actually really enjoying the drive.
Anyway, to your query on the Tiptronic. With paddles it works fine, I wouldn't describe the changes as quick though, very smooth but not quick really. I'd want to pre-empt my down change on the paddles a fair bit. If you are living in the South East I'd take the auto no question, because for the number of times you will want to drive hard and can compared to the number of times you're stuck in traffic is very disproportionate. The Tiptronics are still fast, you just have to pre-empt your actions a little more. My usual test of a gearbox is how it responds at 70mph to a flex of the foot. Underpowered autos shift a gear immediately and then go, big unstressed autos just go like a manual but slightly more progressively. Both the 3.2 and 3.0TDI go like they should. Big bonus of both Tiptronics and Multitronics is they both know where peak power is, and use it. Nobody seems to have taught the DSG about that. Of the two I'd lean towards the 3.0TDI. The 3.2 is perhaps the best multicylinder block Audi do (the 4.2v8 doesn't impress me much, unless twin turboed in the RS6) but my environmental concience won't tolerate under 30mpg and the consequent emissions.
I also agree with you about the S-Class, I don't think you can be under 35 (possibly not 40) and really buy one. But then I feel the same about most Mercedes and I covet a 535d Touring... what do I know?!?
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Cheers,
I do live in the South East, although I often visit the inlaws in Chesterfield which is a 140mile run mostly across country. I also travel to Holland alot on business, and visit family in Germany. The onlt times I really wish I had a Auto is maybe 2 ot of 5 days travel to work on the M25, J25-17. But as I travel at 6am its rare to be caught at clutch pumping speeds. I suppose I should use my uncles argument for having a manual 528i, its got enough torque to use top gear from 30 - 150mph, why do I need an Auto (hes German, and lives in Germany)
One thing I dont like about the Diesels (Maybe the 3.0TDi is differnt) is the short gearing. My old Leon TDi was good, it would allow 30, 53, 80 and 110 in first 4 gears, making it easy to find the right gear. My mondeo on the other had is very short with 27, 47, 70 & 105, which means quick gear changes are needed. Even before it was chipped it was geared too short. Whats the 3.0TDi like?
Neil
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One thing I dont like about the Diesels (Maybe the 3.0TDi is differnt) is the short gearing. My old Leon TDi was good, it would allow 30, 53, 80 and 110 in first 4 gears, making it easy to find the right gear. My mondeo on the other had is very short with 27, 47, 70 & 105, which means quick gear changes are needed.
It's not a matter of short gearing on diesels, it is the lower rev limit that is a factor, if anything the 6 speed Mondeo is rather high geared at over 35mph/1000 in top. Why do you need to take a car to max revs in each gear when it produces so much torque at less than half max revs and max power at 1000 rpm below the red line. I.e your Mondeo will accelerate quickly at 2000/2500 rpm, a petrol equivalent would need 3500/4000 and a lowee gear to keep up. This will also be the case 3.0TDi v 3.2 FSi and 330d v 330i etc.
Back to S-Type (not S-Class), I know a guy who has just got a face lift one very attractive, great wheels.
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>>my uncles argument for having a manual 528i, its got enough torque to use top gear from 30 - 150mph
>>
Meant to say that this argument applies more to TD's than it does to petrols.
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I would have any of those with auto and NO SPORT PACK! Far too uncomfortable for British roads.
For high mileage it has to be the derv drinkers.
--
Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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Another thought, your Mondeo estate is a sharp steerer (hatch and saloon even more so), the Quattro's have loads of grip though are not involving, can feel remote from the road, the BMW's are likely to be more rewarding to drive if you like a bit of feedback from the steering as in the Mondeo.
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>>Another thought, your Mondeo estate is a sharp steerer (hatch >>and saloon even more so), the Quattro's have loads of grip >>though are not involving, can feel remote from the road, the >>BMW's are likely to be more rewarding to drive if you like a >>bit of feedback from the steering as in the Mondeo.
Mmmmm, sharper steering!! I've just taken our Toledo for its 2 yr service, The SEAT service department gave me an Altea Courtesy car. Its only a 1.6, but its soooo much nicer to drive than the old Golf/Leon/A3 based cars. Like the Mondeo it feels a light car, when in relality its over 1400kgs. Will I be disapointed with the Audi?
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I tend to disagree. Even with the bluefin chip, which gives a wider power band (was 2000 - 3800, now 1700 - 4300), its all over to quick. If I pull out onto a national speed limit road near my work where traffic is doing 60+ mph I don't want 4 gear changes to get there!!
My diesel certainly wouldn't pull from 30 - 150, It stalls at 30 in 6th. Even 5th has a problem with 30mph.
Yes, I know a TDI has alot more torque, i've driven VW and Ford Diesels for the past 5 years, and also own Turbo and non-Turbo pertrols, and I noticed a big difference between the Leon's gearing and the Mondeo. Whether a Diesel acceslerates better between 2000-3000 or not, if you overtaking, the last thing you want to do is change gear half way past, and my mondeo still accelerates quicker in say 3rd between 3000-4000 than in 4th from 2000-3000, so i'd use 3rd.
Maybe the 2.0T FSi is the way to go, like my Toledo 1.8T, it produces max torque from 1800 - 5000rpm, and will pull strong to 7000. best of both worlds!!! :-)
As for the M Sport packages, HArd ride isn't an issue so much as an uncontrolled ride. My Old Leon was relatively stiff (SE model), but is was the under damper bounce back that was so uncomfortable. Our Toledo has Harder ride (and 18" wheels), but the shocks are also alot better, so its alot more comfortable on the small lanes around here.
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Diesel won't pull from 30 in 6th because 30 in 6th in most diesels is below idle speed. You'd have a similar issue in some petrols now, as some of those are now running 30mph/1000, including the 2.0T FSI and 3.2v6 A4s. The 2.0T FSI is probably the most impressive engine in the petrol A4 range, and despite being generally a diesel head, I'd definitely consider one next time just because it is so good. Uses much less fuel then the 3.2v6 and is significantly cheaper to buy and run.
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I tend to disagree. Even with the bluefin chip, which gives a wider power band (was 2000 - 3800, now 1700 - 4300), its all over to quick. If I pull out onto a national speed limit road near my work where traffic is doing 60+ mph I don't want 4 gear changes to get there!!
>>
This does not seem right, my TDCi (non chipped) pulls like a train from 1700, pulling onto a motorway from, for instance, a services, simply needs 4th gear by 40mph (approx 1800rpm) and the torque does the rest taking me to the prevailing speed in a matter of a few seconds before selecting 5th. Mine is a 5 speed ('02 model) which (IMO) has better gear ratios, the sixth being too high on the 6 speed models sacrifcing flexibility for a small benefit in CO2 and accordingly BIK for Co car drivers.
My diesel certainly wouldn't pull from 30 - 150, It stalls at 30 in 6th. Even 5th has a problem with 30mph.
See above.
my mondeo still accelerates quicker in say 3rd between 3000-4000 than in 4th from 2000-3000, so i'd use 3rd.
Are you sure? Or do you have a habit of using the revs, using 3rd means a change to 4th is required, using 4th and letting the torque work for you negates the need for a gear change.
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3.0TDI Tiptronic is geared about 36mph/1000 in 6th, so fairly high gearing. From memory it's about 30/48/75/100 in the gears. I've not be peeved with the rev band of the 3.0TDI though it's no way as wide as a petrol engine it's consistent from 1300 to 4200rpm.
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cjehuk - read your DSG comments with interest. All the problems being encountered with changes are because the Touran doesn't have paddles - I've tried changing using the stick in my A3 and I can't!
Your 5th to 3rd problem would be easily solved with paddles - approach corner, downchange from 5th to 4th go round corner speed drops off hit left paddle to 3rd and off you go - I've found 40-45mph in 4th is in the middle of max torque anyway so no need for a drop down - 3rd is needed when speed is around 30 mph.
Also agree about the Sport mode - mine changes at about 4,000 revs which is too high so I tend not to use it - it's more useful for locking the gearbox in a lower cog when going down steep hills in 30 mph zones. As for DSG auto not changing at peak torque this can be achieved by slightly lifting off at about 3,000 revs.
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.*******
Can't complain too much about the Touran really, it's dad's plodder car and suits his driving style down to the ground. It's just a pity (IMO) that it doesn't have paddles and has a couple of unexplained rattles all over the place and the road noise is just too high for my liking.
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cjehuk..... interesting about the Touran. As I said earlier, I have the Touran based Altea today, although the 1.6 model, and its get alot less road noise than my Mondeo.
I'm testing an Altea 2.0TDi Sport DSG on Saturday as we are thinking of swapping in the Toledo and Mondeo for one. I was impressed with the 2.0TDi manual, especially the way it pulled so hard, I found it quite hard to change gear quick enough before it passed the 4600 red line and hit the govenor at 5000 in 1st, 2nd and 3rd. The only other Diesel that did that easliy was my chipped Leon TDi.
I also love Diesels, especially for towing and long motorway journies, but I do miss the high revving fun of a petrol, hence why I use a Primera GT as a track car....bliss!! :-)
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I also love Diesels, especially for towing and long motorway journies, but I do miss the high revving fun of a petrol, hence why I use a Primera GT as a track car....bliss!! :-)
I agree hence why I have a motorbike, however there is satisfaction in putting you foot down at less than 200 revs and letting the torque waft you past an artic as there is in dropping a couple of gears and using the revs of a petrol engine.
The 535d has a higher than average redline for a diesel, I wonder if the new 530d/330d (same engine, single turbo) are the same in this regard.
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What about X Type, with the newer/bigger diesel engine??
VB
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>>What about X Type, with the newer/bigger diesel engine??
I'd rather have a Mondeo 2.2 ST TDCi!! (same engine)
The problem with the Mondeo is that its a pig with the aircon on, the engine is unresponsive around town, and it stalls easily, just dies, no bunny hopping. Magazine Test results seem to say the same about the Focus TDCi (something about an abrupt clutch). My Brother had experienced the same with a Fusion TDCi, and a colleague wishes he had bought an Auto S-Type 2.7D as his Manual one stalls alot too...... Mmmmm, lets see, they are all Ford based!!!
I loved the way I could pull away in my Leon in 3rd gear without even touching the throttle, thats how flexible it was.
--
Neil T
Mondeo Ghia TDCi 130 Estate, SEAT Toledo 20VT Sport, Various Montegos...
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The problem with the Mondeo is that its a pig with the aircon on, the engine is unresponsive around town, and it stalls easily, just dies, no bunny hopping.>>
I would be straight down to the Ford dealer if mine did that, it is no different to drive aircon/climate on or off, just a very small drop in economy by the trip computer.
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Hi Neil,
Just a quick reply that might help your thoughts. Today I had to take an A4 3.0TDI Sport Quattro Tiptronic on a 100 mile journey. Going M23, M25, A12 to Ipswich. Result of that journey was an average of 50mph and 51.6mpg. Which I thought was really impressive for a 3L 4wd car. The Tiptronic as I said really isn't as quick as the Multitronic to shift down but I never found response lacking because it's just got so much torque at 70 anyway you don't really need it to drop a cog to get moving.
Regards
Chris
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Hi Chris,
Result of that journey was an average of 50mph and 51.6mpg. >>
I assume by the trip computer therefore perhaps more a reflection on the inacuracy of the trip computer than the economy of the car.
However I agree with you earlier point which was along the lines of why have a car that does under 30mpg when you can have a fast and refined TD that both saves money and is kinder to the environment.
Regards.
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Yes off the computer figures, but experience shows the Audi computer in the current B7 A4 is about 3mpg optimistic at most. My A3 records about 49mpg for a routine return of 46 brim to brim, so based on that actual was in the 47-48mpg region, still very good for a rocket ship with more torque than the new RS4. Actually in a chase if I was the police I'd taken an A8 3.0TDI out against an RS4... The A8 might not do the same speed flat out or accelerate as fast but he'll have caught them about the time they head for their second fuel stop (approx 140 miles ;-))
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>>The 535d has a higher than average redline for a diesel,
What is it? Surely not over 5000?
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>>The 535d has a higher than average redline for a diesel, What is it? Surely not over 5000?
Tell the truthh I am not sure, also I perhaps should have said limiter as opposed to redline, Clarkson reported that it revved high for a diesel, I have read as such as well though not sure of the figures.
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'I'd do 5th to 3rd at about 45mph for a corner, with suitable throttling of course. The DSG will shift down to 4th, but it won't let you have third till your speed drops below 40'
I tried this last night and suggest one of three things:
Your figures are wrong
The DSG manual change software on the Touran is different to the A3
The gearbox is different
The reason being that I did a 5th to 3rd downchange at 60 mph last night - 60 mph in 3rd is quite possible.
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Gear for gear I think the Touran gearing is different, 3rd in the Touran gives just under 3000rpm at 40mph. Probably a different shift pattern too, as the Touran isn't meant to be as sporty as an A3.
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The revs reach the limiter at about 4,500 - if you extrapolate your figures you will top out at 60 mph in 3rd ((4500/3000)*40)- same as the A3.
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Go for the 530d manual I say. Or wait a while and go for the 535d!!
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