>> I wonder what Ken will have to put the Congestion Chargeup to in order to pay for it. That's a serious point. Cities can lose fortunes by staging the Olympic Games.>>
IRC a new lottery game will be launched which will also cover some of the costs but ultimately it's always the taxpayer who coughs up in one way or another.
Personally I think it'll have a massively beneficial impact, not only in London but across the UK in terms of tourism, new investment and all that goes with it. There'll also be the much more important benefit of inspiring our often vilified youngsters to take part in what must be just about the world's biggest sporting event.
Meanwhile numerous property speculators have made millions if the past few hours.>> HJ
Presumably, for anyone who missed out in Stratford, there'll be a few bargains to be had in Paris around now :) Could Chirac's residence soon be vacant?
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>Could Chirac's residence soon be vacant?
Aint Life sweet sometimes?
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Please can we have a tabloid title "Trafalgar 2005" tomorrow?
After all, we're in the Big Year of marking this pivotal event, we again beat the French and the Spanish (even if there was a voting trade as surmised), and we based our celebrations at the foot of Nelson's column!
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Great news, but i hope a poorly timed terrorist strike (inevitable sooner or later) doesn't spoil things.
Not being a pessimist, just cautious and realistic.
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Well, living in rural N Staffs:
I did not go to see the Millenium Dome becasue of the time and cost of travel to and from.
Will the Olympics be any different?
YES!
Much more expensive and even worse congestion..
(The only winners will be th construction companies. Not the current residenst cos they'll not be able to afford the new improved amenities and housing).
I'll watch on TV.
Does anyone seriously expect it to be less than 100% Over budget?
madf
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My exemption from UK tax arrived today - good timing.
A good place for accommodation during the Games will probably be - Paris - empty during July/August, and probably quicker to travel Gare de Nord-Stratford than from central London.
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tinyurl.com/8mqe6
what others may be thinking
madf
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1. Every Olympic Games bankrupts the hosts -- in 2012, Athens will still be paying the bill for the last one.
2. What is this government's record on grand projects and cost control?
3. Wot about the Dome then, eh?
4. Regenerate east London by all means, but there are more logical ways of going about it than building three athletics stadia in the place. And cheaper.
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Deep joy. By 2012 I will be 53, been retired for 3 years and in a far warmer place far away from television and traffic.
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If you just take the cost of building the facilities/infrastructure as against the income directly generated there may well be a loss but that overlooks the lasting benefits through increased tourism etc. etc. for years to come.
IMO all the sporting facilities which will be built are much needed in this country as whatever sporting success we have enjoyed over the decades has been in spite of our 'facilities' not because of them. The non sporting facilities would've been built anyway. Yes we could have rebuilt that part of East London anyway but I doubt doing that alone would've engendered any particular sense of local/national pride, inspired a generation of youngsters to reach for the sky or led to the sort of transport improvements which are going to be integral to hosting the games. As it is I'm happy to pay my share for this vision via income tax and council tax. Thus far I'm told that as a Londoner the cost to me will be 38p pw over the next few years. Big deal! Even if that figures quadruples it'll still be less than the cost of a pint of beer and I know which I'd rather have.
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Even if that figures quadruples it'll still be less than the cost of a pint of beer and I know which I'd rather have.
It's a big question - a free pint of beer a week for the next 7 years or hosting the olympics?
Can someone pass me my pint glass please?
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Same as my view on the dome, spend the cash on a decent dental service.
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Well not being pedantic but it isn't the cost for hosting the games it is the cost of transforming a huge part of our capital city and creating jobs and resources which will last for decades.
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New sporting facilities in London for top athletes. Meanwhile schools are conttinuing to sell off playing fields and nearly 50% of adolescents do little exercise and are obese.
At least the French have won the World Cup, the Rugby World cup and have world class tennis players. All in the past 15 years. More than the British have done..
Joined up Government someone?
madf
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"At least the French have won the World Cup, the Rugby World cup and have world class tennis players. All in the past 15 years."
So when did they "win" the rugby world cup? Or do you mean they will be hosting it? Last winners were England!
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run-down bit of London needs restoring. Cost £10.
Company X do job for £10 + £5 profit.
Government pay £15 for job
We pay £15 tax.
Company is foreign so money leaves the UK.
Balanced against that is the sums of money coming into the country for anything from souvenirs for visitors to hotels for visiting journalists.
The issue is, which is larger ?
Now even that is all well and good because one is being left with the facility.
However, imagine that the M4 needs to carry 10 vehicles a day currently. Its capacity is really only 8 vehicles per day so it snarls up. For 2 weeks during the Olympics is will need to carry 12 vehicles a day.
We then repeat the financial scenario above, but this time we do it and get left with a resource which we don't need.
Overly simplistic, but I'm sure you get the idea.
Also, you may not think that the economy can be affected by you receiving 38p less. However, you are wrong. Individually your behaviour may not change, or at least you may not think it does.
But perhaps that's 38p less in your pocket the day of the charity collection. Or its 38p less you give to the Big Issue seller, or whatever. Now, you start talking about lots of 38p from lots of people, and you start having a significant effect on the economy.
And unfortunately most of those effects will be directed at the infrastructure costs of your economy - roads, rail, etc.
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Plus, there is a very good chance that it will occur to HMG that it would be a good idea to take the opportunity to introduce some sort of half-baked security measure.
Like er, ID cards.
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Well what I hope is that now we've won we don't all spend the next few years arguing about it and snatching a defeat from the jaws of victory. That would be a real tragedy. The Dome was in large part the victim of media mis-reporting and whilst I don't recall the exact figures, the oft-repeated claim was that it had cost several £billions. I later heard it explained that the Dome itself cost a fraction of the total figure quoted - the remainder being that which was spent on the surrounding infrastructure - virtually all of which was required for the massive development taking place in and around Canary Wharf anyway. We've won now so let's get on with it and make sure it works!
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We've won now so let's get on with it and make sure it works!
Well I'm happy to lend you a shovel.
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Like er, ID cards.
Let's hope so.
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>> Like er, ID cards. Let's hope so.
Yes ::twirling finger by temple::, because they're not going to be a total waste of money, are they.
Narf!
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you would have thought they would have sorted out the health service before wasting money on none essentials
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"I later heard it explained that the Dome itself cost a fraction of the total figure quoted "
£700 million may be peanuts to Londoners: who were close to it but for us Northeners it's a lot of money.
The sums read:
Direct expenditure on stadia ~ £2.5Billion
Associated infrastructure: ~ £8 Billion
Running Costs ~ £1.5 bilion to be met from tickets sales/TV rights etc.
I am prepared to bet the first two numbers will overrun by between £2 and £4 Billion.
madf
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Now let me see.
2012? I shall be retired. I will buy a S/H merc and will coin in a fortune doing collar and tie taxi work during the olympics
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Wouldn't you make more, and more easily, by renting out RF Towers for the duration to a family of Chinese?
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London could host the games at zero cost. An athletics track exists at Crystal Palace, Herne Hill has a Velodrome and there are football grounds and facilities for any sport you could care to mention many times over. Depends, I suppose, whether you like sport or showbiz glitz.
So, we spend the weekend being shamed into hand wringing and guilt over Africa, then our betters decide to blow 4 Billion on a sporting event that most of us will only ever see on television.
I suppose the muggers, drug pushers and prostitutes in that part of London (I grew up three miles away) will welcome the extra business.
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Me too. well nearly - Canning Town.
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>>London could host the games at zero cost. An athletics track exists at Crystal Palace,
I hope you are joking.Crystal palace is a wreck.It needs refurbishment.Even the swimming pool is a wreck.Though I gather thoughts on it may be refurbished didnt work out.. It isnt to my knowledge going to happen..But this may now change?.Even if it does it is still going to cost a fortune
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Steve
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>>"I later heard it explained that the Dome itself cost a fraction of the total figure quoted "
So what.Amount spent on the dome what is effectively a paper umbrella on stilts.Could have been spent on rebuilding sports grounds that are in dire need of attention.This would have helped cut down costs on building areas to replace those that have gone to waste
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Steve
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Can I ask a civil question please?
On Sat we had the live8 concert and it was screened all day and was the top billing in the news.
Today, as the G8 leaders arrive in Scotland ready for the monumental discussions about world poverty, the headlines are all about this stupid Olympics bid. How much is that costing? How many mouths would that save or feed?
Yet again, this country gets everything out of proportion.
Sorry, rant over.
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No need to apologise Bobby, you've made a perfectly valid point.
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Valid point Bobby, but (and I'm not saying that these are my own views, just alternative views)in no particular order
1. £4 billion (and I would treble that by the time it's 2012)will be spent in this country, largely to British firms and workers so should not be "wasted" and "should" improve infrastructure/facilities in this country - including transport facilities.
2. How many of the hundreds of thousands who went to Live 8 concerts were there to support "Make poverty History" and how many went to see a damn good concert and Pink Floyd perform for the first time in 20 years (for example)
3. The G8 countries have given billions of pounds in the last 20 years to Africa. Why are death rates increasing, child mortality increasing, GNP per capita decreasing etc despite this. How much of the money is getting to the people?
4. Should "Africa" take more responsibility? Why does South Africa support Mugabe? Why has Mugabe recently been elected by the African nations to the UN Commission on Human Rights (I think?). How can that King/Prince in Swaziland spend millions on new palaces and fleets of expensive cars for his multiple wives while denying anti-HIV drugs to his subjects? Why does half the foreign aid given to Nigeria disappear into Swiss bank accounts of its rulers? How come these poverty stricken African States afford to equip their armies and air forces with the latest equipment and for what?
5.Is there a whiff of hypocrisy here? How come Bono still doesn't pay tax on his earnings because he lives in Ireland and is exempt? Should he volunteer some tax so that it can go towards aid to impoverished Africans? Does Paul MacCartney really need £200 million to survive on - could he give £180 million to "Africa" and still live a little more comfortably than you? How come Elton manages to spend £500k a year on flowers: should it be given to "Africans" instead?
6. G8 meeting is not just about poverty - several other things on the agenda - global warming for instance, trade, etc.
7. Why do the likes of Bono (leader of the most over rated rock band ever!) think they should be able to tell our elected politicians (and therefore us) how our taxes should be spent?
Before I go on too long(!!!) and without being too self righteous (!) let me say that I think I am the proud "owner" of several goats and cows in Africa. I think I also sank a well in Africa and have helped to irrigate a womens cooperative farm in Sudan so I do my best to donate to what I feel are good causes.
Please continue to donate to these good causes and the poor people of the world but I think it's too simple to say that the Olympic money is a waste and the £4billion should go to Africa. You can however say that the £4billion is a waste and should be spent on hospitals/education/new motorways/better water supply to prevent hosepipe bans/ better pensions etc etc etc.
Please don't flame me!!
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How much is that costing? How many mouthswould that save or feed? Yet again, this country gets everything out of proportion.
too true.. the biggest winners will be the multi national corperate companys who will sponsor the games .. just what the G8 protesters are protesting about.
Breathtaking hypocrosy, still we're good at that in this country
The ballpark figure of what it will cost £14 billion (the Athens figure) is roughly half of Africas total debt.
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Dont give me this hypocrosy lark
None of you, I repeat NONE of you would be prepared to give up what it would take to resolve ALL the injustices and starving mouths in the world so lets not pretend shall we?
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When the Dome which is nothing more than an oversized tent cost just shy of £1 billion, I shudder to think how much it would cost to host these olympics in 2012. We have a greek friend who has just been laid off in Greece because the government are closing a string of universities due to cutbacks.The cost of the games accounts for 5% of the countrys' deficit. Try telling an athenian that the games were worth it without getting a kick in the groin.
i wonder how much the tickets will cost?
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When the eurphoria die down and reality sets in maybe 2 or 3 years we may realise we could have bitten off more than we can chew?
Remember the weather too.. the games have been traditionally held in warm sunny climates (Athens, Sydney, Barcelona etc)
Can we guarentee the weather? alas no, Biggest joke of all was the forcaster on BBC London news giving a forecast for 2012..
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"the biggest winners will be the multi national corperate companys who will sponsor the games .. just what the G8 protesters are protesting about"
And that's from a man who drives a Ford. Hmmm. Hope you don't shop at ASDA or ever buy you kids MuckDonalds or fill you car with Esso, Shell, BP, or Texaco products. Do you drink Nescafe? Teachers whisky? Sony TV? Do you have Sky TV? Who is your insurance company? Do you pay your premiums from a Barclays or HSBC account? Your kids got Nike or Adidas trainers? Your computer an Intel chip? Are you reading this via a Microsoft product?
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Apart from driving a Ford all the other questions the answers are NO
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"Remember the weather too.. the games have been traditionally held in warm sunny climates (Athens, Sydney, Barcelona etc)"
Not forgetting Montreal, Oslo, Moscow, London(1948), Paris, Munich, Helsinki, Seoul, - that takes care of 48 of the last 110 years.
So which non multi-national provides your petrol, oil, (and tyres)?
I've got a headache now so will try to find non-multinational aspirin
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Please try and keep this thread on a motoring related theme, rather than going off on a tangent into weather forcasts predictions, G8 discussions, and the like.
Thankyou. DD.
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>>fill you car with Esso, Shell, BP, or Texaco products.
>>Apart from driving a Ford all the other questions the answers are NO
That's some car you;ve got.
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Apart from driving a Ford all the other questions the answers are NO
Your Multinational Ford, IS running on Multinational Fuel regardless of where you think you get it. YOu are running your PC on a Multinational piece of silicon, using multinational operating system (yes even linux owes its existence to AT&T) and posting to this forum over multinational wires and technology. Why even this forum wouldnt be here if it wasnt for the multinationals (and even worse - spawn of satan - the US military! - )
The clothes and shoes you are wearing is the result of slave labour somewhere in the third world (even if you try and prevent wearing it) the Food you eat is the result of protectionism and international politics
Just by living in the UK and having any form of lifestyle you are part of the poverty problem.
Me I dont care, I will continue to enjoy my lifestyle at the expense of others thank you.
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"Me I dont care, I will continue to enjoy my lifestyle at the expense of others thank you."
A refreshing bit of honesty that probably applies to most of us, were we to admit it.
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I was Anti Olympics. Right up to the moment we won. Still anti olympics but.....................
Ok we have won it now. NOw its up to us all to make sure we carry it off. Even more so after what happened in London today.
So
Stop bleating about it. too late you cant stop it now.
If you live in and around London - volunteer to be a helper.
www.volunteer2012.com/
Buy tickets to the events,
Put a sticker in your car window
Anything. Bolster some national pride.
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I was Anti Olympics. Right up to the moment we won. Still anti olympics but.....................
You (RF) also said "I am going to buy a second hand Merc and do some collar and tie taxi work"
The problem is that driving to these events can be a nightmare. I don't take any of those type of jobs - Wimbledon, Twickenham, ascot and it's even worse after the event trying to get away - Oooh I nearly went into rant mode then!
The big problem with the Olympics is that politicians and civil servants couldn't run a chip shop and make a profit. So how are they going to build this on time and on budget.
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Just by living in the UK and having any form of lifestyle you are part of the poverty problem. Me I dont care, I will continue to enjoy my lifestyle at the expense of others thank you
>>
a true statement for the majority of the world's population.
money gets spent on transport and fuel - even if all you need in life is food.
my theory, which may be completely wrong:
very simplisticly, the basic rules of economics dictate that you have a "food chain" from the richest (bill gates) to the poorest (a starving african). the billions spent on the olympics in london will eventually trickle down to slave workers making the shoes and clothes that visitors to the event will be wearing. all the vast multi billion profits that big corporations make trickle down to the poorest. money locked up in banks is never really locked up. it is being used by someone somewhere at any given time to engage in economic activity. even if it is by the united nations delivering regular food rations to people who have become dependant on handouts to live their lives waiting for handouts. the delivery vehicles need to be made, fuelled, driven. the food needs to be grown harvested and transported from europe and america to these starving masses.
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"the billions spent on the olympics in london will eventually trickle down"
Hey Dalglish, 1979 called. It wants its economic theory back.
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"the food needs to be grown harvested and transported from europe and america to these starving masses"
And perhaps if the food grown in Europe and America wasn't so heavily subsidised it wouldn't need transporting in that direction and the "starving masses" could make a living wage by producing food which they could eat and we could buy much cheaper while they still made a good profit???????
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the "starving masses" could make a living wage by producing food which they could eat
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try telling that to the million acholi tribe people in the "refugee camp" in northern uganda. most of them have lived all their life on nothing but handouts, and live just to be fed daily by the united nations food rations agency.
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p.s. to phil
ghana aand malaysia became independent in the same year about 60 years ago. they had virtually identical economies and resources then. palm oil was the major produce of ghana and not at all in malaysia.
malyasia now has a thriving automobile industry.
and it is the world's largest producer of palm oil. produced from seedlings imported originally from ghana. ghana has stood still in the mantime. draw your own conclusions, and blame the west.
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I'm not "blaming the west" alone - a lot of the blame does/could lie with the Ghanaian leadership (Nkrumah?) who for many years have robbed their own people blind, but to quote just one set of figures (courtesy Daily Tel.)- sugar faces a 324% tariff when imported into Europe. Sugar grown in Europe receives a subsidy of 525 euros per ton when exported to other parts of the world. The price of sugar in Europe is kept at 3 times the price on the world market all so that (mainly French??) farmers in Europe can make a "profit". How can poor countries compete with that? They produce it cheaper, they could produce enough, but they couldn't/can't sell it. Perhaps if the Acholi could grow sugar (or something else) and sell it they wouldn't need hand outs?
I'm probably being far too simplistic and with no reference to motoring I will leave it there.
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Corruption comes in many forms Phil, it's just that we have our own particular brand in the EU.
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try telling that to the million acholi tribe people in the "refugee camp" in northern uganda. most of them have lived all their life on nothing but handouts, and live just to be fed daily by the united nations food rations agency.
I have lived and worked in Uganda, Swaziland, Zambia, and South Africa, in a job which gives me access to books, documents, records and accounts. You guys don't know the half of it. The Acholi for example in Uganda. They are in camps to protect them from the Lord's Army, a guerilla army. But Museveni was a guerilla rebel himself, and got to power by being successful. After 18 years he can't defeat a similar rebel guerilla army? Credibility gap there!! Doesn't want to, more like. The Acholi are rather dark skinned, and therefore not beautiful or capable in lighter skinned Ugandans eyes, and so despised. ('He is too black: we can't promote him'is just one quote.) Meanwhile out in the west the western tribes are trespassing northwards. Get the picture? The President is from the west.
While we are writing off debts in Africa, Ghaddafi, who lent cash to the Ugandans that they can't service or pay back, is being given companies due to be privatised instead. Barmy!!!
As for corruption, you should see what I have seen. Some aid goes via NGO's, and I have seen correspondence requesting padded invoices with cash back for the NGO staff. And that is a charitable organisation! I could go on, but you should have the picture by now. Keep your aid momey in your pocket, or be prepared to subsidise some politician slob.
The ordinary africans are very nice, if capable of considerable cruelty (not that europeans are much better-think Serbia jus t for one), but seem to think that their acceptance of corrupt leaders is OK. They have no idea of the responsibility that goes with democracy. Anyway they benefit from corrupt leaders under the 'big man' culture (which can be exaggerated in importance).
For some insights put 'Viktor' Bout into google, and also the UN report by the committee (or panel) of experts, enquiring into the goings on in the Congo. See what is going on at Entebbe. Have you read about the arms saga in South Africa? Read about Zuma, recently sacked by Mbeki. What a saga!!
On the motoring front, Uganda is er exciting. Cars are cast off Toyotas. Swaziland is OK, South Africa is fine but the standard of driving is adrenalin arousing. Good roads. Cars were cheap, but no longer. Zambia was OKish. Some good classic car dealers in SA. SA is first world in some ways, third in others. restaurant service much better than here, as are prices. Cinema is about £1.
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Hey Dalglish, 1979 called. It wants its economic theory back
>>
you mean the theory that money and cars grow on trees?
i know where my income to pay for my car and fuel and tax comes from. i drive a german car, use middle east oil, ugandan copper, and i eat brazil nuts, drink kenyan coffee, and use ms windows.
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Todays Telegraph reports a list of the costs and income for the Olympics. The biggest source of income is The Lottery @ £1.5 billion and the second biggest is (wait for it!) a Council Tax levy of £625 million! All other sources of income are less (TV rights, Sponsorship and tickets sales etc). I am sure that the people who live in London will benefit from the improvemnts to the facilities and infra-structure but I hope they think it is worth £625 million.
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£1.5billion from the lottery? To pay for a select few to use the Olympics to try and increase their own income through sponsorship etc?
Farce, complete farce.
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Missed your point.The select few are those that are capable of reaching standard required to compete in the Olympics.Lottery money does not pay them for what they do.Only assists in training possibly helping them buy the gear they need to compete..This Illusion of them being paid is only because they may be accepted to advertise what is worn during the games.But having said that would you train as hard as athletes do.I think not.Its pure hard work and a lot of time and effort put in that gives these people the chance to compete..
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Steve
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Steveo, you have missed my point.
If I want to be , for instance a top accountant, I need to pay my own way through uni, find a job at the end of it and then start earning my money.
Athletes can get sponsorship from lottery for training, eqpt etc, then go to Olympics funded by lottery (us), and if they do well then they get loads of money, tell me your Kellys, Paulas etc are not well off?
We should not be investing all this money in an Olympics. There are far better uses of the billions than paying for a TV spectacle. Like hospitals. Schools. Even Transport.
Remember London Dome?
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The point is, that back in those more innocent days some people thought that free markets could actually exist. Oh, how we laughed.
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Anyway, trying to continue with the motoring theme, many may or may not know is that Weymouth & Portland Harbour, Dorset, will be hosting the sailing competitions during the London 2012 Olympiad!!!
I have a relative whos lived in Weymouth for about 18 years now, so she knows a few things about the area.
One of the things she mentioned was that the A354 between Dorchester-Weymouth is almost choco-block with traffic especialy during the rush hour. She said she cant imagine this 8 mile stretch of road blocked with Olympic traffic, it would be worse then the M25 (except its only a single carriage way) do you reckon the authorities down there would do something the system down there, the railway track on the same route is i believe only a single track!!! i would like to see what happens down there besides the London roads!
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Its not what you drive, its how you drive it! :-)
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It would be quicker for me to cycle from my place in Poole to Portland than to drive it in mid summer.
What a fine opportunity for Olympic funds to improve transport links.
I'll let you know when the runway for the pigs is ready. Although it could happen. I guess.
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How on earth can they run shooting events in this country, where it will be a criminal offence for a competitor to even carry a handgun into the country (in his car -- motoring point)? Surely that disqualifies us from even making a bid?
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" Great news, but i hope a poorly timed terrorist strike (inevitable sooner or later) doesn't spoil things"
That's a bit too spooky. I wish you hadn't been proved right quite so soon...
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My only contribution to this 'debate' is what a load of whingers most of you lot are! Is it so difficult to be pleased and proud for once in your lives? Or should I apologise for being British and take out a subscription to the Daily Mail? This will be a huge incentive to get the transport infrastructure as right as it can be, no-one will want egg on their faces with the eyes of the world on London.
So well done the bid team and roll on 2012!
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