Hi,
I Have a Passat 4motion Estate 1.9Tdi (130). It has been in for it's first service after 17000 miles (long life). I have been told that the brake pads need to be changed.
The rear pads are 90% (1000ish miles to go) worn and the front are 60% worn (10,000ish miles to go). I know alot depends on driving style, however is usual for the rear to wear much more than the front.
Any ideas???
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Rear pads on my Passat 100bhp diesel went first also.
Albeit at 40K , followed by the fronts at 50K.
Rear brakes get heavily contaminated by mud and tend to stick on.
Same problem was noted on my last Golf Mk4.
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I wasna fu but just had plenty.
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If you're unsure, then get them looked at by someone else - it has been known for dealers to over estimate use. But only you will know how much they have been used as the braking will feel less crisp.
Also why didn't you go for the maintance package (service, maintance & tyres) from VW? That really makes sense IMHO as I had one for my V6 TDi and paid only £22 PCM (for 12k miles/year).
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Im not plain stupid, just a special kind of stoopid.
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"why didn't you go for the maintance package (service, maintance & tyres) from VW? That really makes sense IMHO as I had one for my V6 TDi and paid only £22 PCM (for 12k miles/year)."
£22/month for all that?? Thats good value. Was there a mileage clause in that?
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groups.msn.com/honestjohn - Pictures say a thousand words.....
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I had a Passat 2.0GL estate from 4,500 to 240,000+ miles. Rear pads lasted 80-90K, changed twice, and the discs not at all.
Front pads lasted 40-50,000 and discs changed at 180,000ish - regularly derusted and de-lipped with a black'ndecker carborundum wheel.
I suspect that either your car has done a great deal more than 17,000 or 16,500 of them have been on a race-track.
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Why not just poke a steel rule in between the spokes of the wheels and measure the pads yourself? I believe the 'change' spec is 7mm including the backing material, but there should be plenty more life in them even beyond that. Remember the 'spec' is devised by people in the business of making, selling and fitting brake pads, so they're hardly going to be designed to maximise pad life.
The dealer wants to sell pads and labour, he's almost certainly lying about the wear. He'll threaten you with MOT failure, but again he'll be lying.
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>>Remember the 'spec' is devised by people in the business of making, selling and fitting brake pads, so they're hardly going to be designed to maximise pad life.
depends on material makeup of pads.Though If the pads are low would recommend they are changed if at or around man/spec..Problems may occur if it is decided not to do so.ie brake fade can occur.Meaning loss of brakes temporarily. I realy dont hold with any compliants regarding any garage that says either shoes or pads need replacing.For one if you havent a clue.Replace for safety.On the other side it could be false what you have been told.But is it worth the risk-I dont think so
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Steve
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If it will remain serviceable until the next scheduled service, then it should be left alone.
90% worn? Sounds harsh for a 17K mile car!
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groups.msn.com/honestjohn - Pictures say a thousand words.....
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Not sure I follow you here Steve. A few points in no particular order - I did write a long and detailed reply but I timed out!
There's either enough friction material remaining to do the job effectively, or there's a thin sliver that's about to wear through. I'd agree with a policy of change if in doubt, but where is the doubt when there's several mm left? There is no mystical rocket science happening, it's all pretty simple. Automatic or manual adjusters (if working or adjusted) will ensure that the same braking force is applied whether you have 10mm or 1mm of pad remaining.
The manufacturer's spec will be set with a massive safety margin. Which also conviniently helps sell more pads.
Brake fade? I thought this arose when the hydraulic fluid can't cope anymore, usually as a result of excessive heat during sharp or prolonged braking. I suppose worn pads might contribute slightly if there's less pad material to absorb/disperse the heat, but the difference that makes will be small and if you're braking so intensively that it matters then your driving style probably isn't especially suited to a public road.
Just because the pad thickness has fallen below an arbitrary level doesn't mean they're less effective.
I have a problem with garages advising brake pad changes when there is several mm of material left. If you think they suggest it because they're concerned for your safety then think again. These people are running a business, not some sort of public information or risk prevention service.
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Oh and to answer the original post:
Fozzie you really need to have a look at them yourself. It's not hard, if you have a 4-motion then I assume it has alloys and the brake pads can be seen easily.
I'm assuming you know what to look for. If you don't, ask the forum or look in a book - it's not complicated at all.
There's a good chance the dealer wants to sell some brake pads (and some labour at god-knows-what per hour) and has come up with some random but serious-sounding description of how worn they are.
If you have more than a few mm of pad left, wave your finger sternly at him and warn him not to try a stunt like that with you again.
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Would agree I missread the post.Though I dont agree pad level should be ignored.Pad and as I stated depends on makeup of pad.contributes to how well the pad to disc perform/ie the lower the pad gets the lower brake performance gets..though as its time related as well it is not easily noticed..Brake fade occurs when the pad to disc overheat.the lower the pad depth is the more likely the pad/disc will overheat causing brake fade-Loss of brakes!
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Steve
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I don't know about the detail of the braking system on this car, but it seems unusual that rear brakes have worn out at this mileage - as DL says, harsh!
Questions I would be asking are;
Does the handbrake work via these pads? If so, is the handbrake mechanism working and releasing properly?
Is there any load sensing valve for the rear brakes? If so, is it working properly, reducing rear braking force while unladen? If the valve is sticking, this is a serious fault.
Are the pistons in the brake calipers free? Do the rubber seals pull the pistons back properly, or do the pads bind on?
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So far, the only person to have inspected these pads is the original mechanic doing the work. I don't see how anyone who hasn't seen the pads, or at least the measurements of remaining pad depth and compared that with the VW spec can say that the garage is not being honest.
There are two areas of car maintenance where I am profligate with both my own, and customer's money, nameley tyres and brakes. I have never heard a customer coming back, saying thank you for saving me twenty quid by letting me go with those nearly worn out pads. However, I know that I would be in the dock in short time if any car I had worked on suffered brake failure just after I had worked on it.
DIY limits and tolerances cannot be applied in a commercial garage situation. You have to be sure that the car you send out is safe. If sometimes you err on the side of caution to acheive this, then, so be it.
While I agree that garages should not be given carte blanche to specify extra work without some checks to make sure the work is necessary, I find that excessive cynicism doesn't help anyone - not the original poster, and certainly not the garage / customer relationship.
Number_Cruncher
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There is no other business that has such a massive reputation for dishonesty. Unfortunate for those who are honest, but that's how it is. In this game, I believe 100% cynicism is necessary as a consumer.
The circumstances described in the original post sound so unlikely that if it were my car I'd immediately want to have a look myself.
All I'm saying to the guy who asked the question is have a look. It can't hurt (except the mechanics feelings, but why should it - it what other line of business do you commission and pay for work without seeing it?)
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Well, I suspect that the following may be a more serious potential threat to your wallet;
Builders
Purveyors of double glazing products
Estate Agents
Lawyers
Accountants
Car Salesmen
I'm sure there are more, but this is the list I came up with after thinking for a minute. I think the financial pain that can be caused by a man with a spanner, taking a slightly cautious view with your brake pads pales into insignificance when compared with the activities of real con-merchants.
I am not condoning or approving of dishonesty in the motor trade - although I know it goes on. Those found to be ripping people off should be dealt with by bodies like trading standards and the courts.
While you believe 100% cynicism is necessary, I would suggest that you have much more to gain by building a good working relationship with a trusted independant than you have by sniping over relative trivia. From my experience, the people who get most help, the best deals, the best advice, and the odd free favour out of me aren't the ones who treat me like a potential thief.
I agree that the OP should look at his brake pads, and continue to ask questions of the type I outlined above.
Number_Cruncher
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Hi all,
Thanks for your posts. I think the main consensus is that 17,000miles is a bit on the lean side for a set of rear pads. I did originally check them myself and they did look rather thin.
This now begs the question of was there an issue with the hand brake set up. The car is only 1 year old.
Over the past year I have noticed that the performance (acceleration) of the car had a marked improvement on some days over others (could be due to a sticky hand break? thus causing the pads to wear). I mentioned this on the service an was met by blank looks at the desk. I did phone another VW dealer and asked what the life expectancy of rear pads were and they replied that the rears do seem to wear quicker that the front but did not get a miles covered figure.
Forgot to mention that I have had and increase of 1.5mpg on the trip in the car. Was this due to the service, break pad change or coincidence???????? There was a gap of a week between the service and the rear pad change and I didn't notice a difference in economy then.
The thing is VW have got you by the spherical objects for the first 3 years because of the warranty
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Hi Fozzie
just to say that in Feb this year I had the rear discs and pads changed for the first time since new on my 2001 Passat Estate.
The front discs were worn but serviceable but they needed the first set of new pads since new as well.
Work was carried out by a VW Independant who took the view because of the handbrake working on the rear discs and problems with corrosion the rear discs and pads are often the first to go. At this point the originals had lasted for 72000 miles which I though was acceptable.
All in all I had a major service, brake fluid change, new wipers all round, new brake pads all around and new rear discs for less that £400 all in which was a fraction of what the VW dealer wanted.
17k sounds on the light side to me unless corrosion has eaten your disc surface,
as always
Mark
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To be fair to dealers, where a manufacturer is specifying very long service intervals and it is likely that the car won't be checked for many thousands of miles, changing pads when they are only part-worn might be the safest option. Otherwise at some point the customer will be in with failed brakes and discs destroyed by the pad backing plates.
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NumberCruncher,
Whilst I agree with your list to a certain extent, most of those you mention are regulated by various bodies to whom one can appeal/complain - some of them have real teeth too, such as the FSA. To my knowledge, no such facility exists with the motor trade.
I have a trusting relationship with the independent I use at the moment. I have tried numerous garages over the years, and only those without a sniff of dishonesty or 'trade maximisation' on first use get repeat business from me. I'm sorry to say that by following such a policy, most places have only seen me once.
I don't display my cynicism to garage owners or mechanics, but keep it ever-present in my mind. Perhaps some places have wondered why I haven't come back, perhaps they've not cared. I know why I haven't, and I hope that they figure out that they've been 'rumbled' on that occassion and it discourages them from trying it on with others.
DoctorChris,
Many years ago cars came with a proper technically-written owner's manual, documenting many checks and adjestments that needed to be made daily, weekly, etc. Doesn't happen now, but by still following the basic idea you can be sure your brake pads (or any other component) will never wear out without you knowing about it.
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