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On the old 306 (non HDI), the CPS sensor also fed the tachometer (rpm counter). Just an idea, look for sudden dips on the tacho. Ideally an oscilloscope should be connected to CPS to check for regular waveform pattern.
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Hey there,
I've taken a couple of pictures of my crankshaft pulley, could anybody tell me whether this looks like it has failed?
www.brunel.ac.uk/~ee04pac/personal/IMG_3260.JPG
www.brunel.ac.uk/~ee04pac/personal/IMG_3262.JPG
cheers,
Paul :)
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Hey there,
just turned the car over without the pulley on, and guess what...................
........STILL there, the problem is still there
I dunno what to do now.... :(
....I think its a fueling problem cos it turns over, but is VERY lumpy and engine very 'shaky'
cheers,
Paul
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You wouldn't have a blown headgasket by any chance? I remember years ago putting (methanol) antifreeze into my parent's Hillman Hunter. Within hours the antifreeze had found a way through the head gasket and the car was running pretty much as you describe -lumpy, juddery and with a sort of 'sloshing' noise!
After that I was advised never to use methanol antifreeze again -apparently it's even more prone to this than glycol.
Antifreeze has quite a 'searching' effect and engines which have been doing fine suddenly spring a leak when they get an aggressive flushout and fresh antifreeze!
Hope it's something simpler, though!
Graeme
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Hey people,
right I've recorded a sound clip of the car running.
The sound clip entails the car idling, the slightly faster, and the near the engine revving a touch, and then we stopped the engine.
www.brunel.ac.uk/~ee04pac/personal/carnoise.mp3
let me know what you think,
cheers,
Paul :)
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just a feeling... headgasket its making a slight chuffing sound.. i am probably totally wrong but i would certainly look in that direction and you have got it hot!...cheers...keo.
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Fantastic recording, it certainly sounds sick. My guess (as also mentioned above) is the method of filling the car with coolant was wrong in that the local overheating may have caused a head gasket failure. On my 406 DT, I used the header tank and bleed method to refill the coolant several times with no problems and no overheating.
Check for water in oil and excessive vapour pressure in the cooling system (if the hoses become hard as soon as you start up, that's a bad sign).
Hope I'm not right and that someone will find a cheaper cause.
Canuck
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Hey there,
Thanks for the comment, yeah the recording was done just by using my laptop's built-in mic!
I'm not sure if the head gasket has gone, but if so there would be 'mayonnaise' on the oil filler cap, or around where the oil is filled, anyhow, there isn't any.
Just thought I'd add that there wasn't any strange smoke coming out of the exhaust, just the normal 'invisable' smell,
cheers,
Paul :)
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Sounds like the timing is well out to me. I reckon you have slipped a cam belt tooth or two.
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Hey there,
would there be considerable damage if the belt has slipped a tooth or two?
cheers,
Paul
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well if it has I wouldnt keep reving it!
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First, not sure about your cam belt tension method so best recheck you have not jumped a notch. However extensive analysis of the sound recording clearly shows the failing pot to be mostly consistantly due to one cylinder at low revs but at higher rpm it is sometimes firing but then upsetting othere firing strokes. ( Use Sound Forge ). It is possible it is the sensor but a long shot. I suspect the timing is really poorly, explain how you tensioned the belt, or you have blown a head gasket between two adjacent pots thus as you rev up the gas cannot escape quick enough and that pot fires up but most at tick over it fails to fire thus overfueling, do that as lot and you can hydralically lock the engine and bend a con rod or worse. I will try and figure out how to post the sound waveform on your site. Regards Peter
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Hey there Peter,
sorry I should of mentioned this before, we checkted the tension with the method of twisting it 90 degrees and not 45 degrees.
I see what your saying about it virtually running on 3 cylinders and only a little on the 4th.
If a sensor has gone, would it be the camshaft position sensor by chance?
I recorded the sound clip using Soundforge and my laptops built in mic. :)
Would you happen to know all of the timing marks, i.e for the crankshaft, camshaft, fuel pump etc?
The reason I ask is we could only find a timing mark for the camshaft sproket.
I think this is the next step, cos if we can determine if the timing is out, then we can go forward, but at the moment, we can't really do anything as we're pretty much 'blind' :O
Anyhow,
thanks for the help :)
Paul
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Ok goto to photobucket.com/albums/y282/Peter_D/ and use Pug Prob to gain access, this shows the tick over and the high rpm. If this was a timing prob all pots would be missing but a sensor or more likely the HG has failed.Getr back to me when you understand. Regards Peter
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I need your email address to give you access to the files. Peter
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ee04pac@brunel.ac.uk,
cheers :)
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Hey there,
thanks for putting up those pics :)
I'm not sure if I totally understand the images, only that when the revs increase, the knocking increases.
When you say 'pot', does that mean piston?
sorry, I'm not too good with terminology of cars :o
thanks,
Paul
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The large spikes are the pot(piston/cylinder) not firing but knocking, and the smaller ones are those that fire up. I would like to see an mp3 of the exhaust noise as well but running the engine is not a good ideal. Does the engine actually tick over but roughly or are you holding the throttle open to keep it running.
The higher rpm image has been stretched in the time domain to show the individual strokes but as you can see the general noise is higher because you are reving the engine.
I will visit the site later today but if the timing marks are all correct then I am afraid your overheat has caused a head gasket failure.
Regards
Peter
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Hey there,
Yeah the engine ticks over by itself, but very roughly, clonking and all that. I'm still trying to find some information about the timing (where the sproket(s), crankshaft pulley needs to be).
I know where the camshaft needs to be as there was some white paint on the sproket and on the engine block, so all we did was line it up when the belt was originally on, with engine working properly.
I'm hoping that the Haynes manual will have info on the HDI to this level :O
thanks for your help mate,
might try and get another couple recordings,
cheers,
Paul :)
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Also post this on BBA_reman.com and Cyril and the guys will be along shortly. I have to go out I have a business to run. Regards Peter
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Hi, I?m back. The reason I ask about was the car really on idle is because, and I have listened and done some further analysis starting to think the peak in the wave form is the good cylinder and the smaller one are duff. This implies that when you started the car from cold the cam belt has jumped thus the dramatic affect. I assume this is a common rail electronically controlled injector system not a pump fed individual feed, if it is the latter then you a definitely looking for a timing problem. Regards Peter
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Hey there,
the car was on idle for a bit, but not for long. I will take another sound sample of the engine ticking over :)
Yeah the car does have the common rail injector system, it has a Bosch fuel system as opposed to the Siemens one.
I'll be back in about 20mins,
cheers,
Paul :)
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Hi mate,
I've recorded the car idling now, no revving or anything.
What you will hear in the clip is of course the car idling, then it goes a little quieter, that is when I try to take a recording of the exhaust note, and then I got back slightly nearer the engine bay, hence it getting a bit louder, I hope this is better than the last clip.
www.brunel.ac.uk/~ee04pac/personal/carnoise2.mp3
cheers,
Paul :)
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I've listen to that over and over and the exhaust note ant carefully timed the main features. It sounds like you have a busted or stuck valve or even a hole punched thru a pistion. Remove the filler cap and listen and then hold a peice of cloth over the filler to observe the air ammount of air flow and direction. This could still be a gasket to sump leak so the filler cap test should help. Next would be a compression test, not easy as athe injectors have to come out. However put the car in gear 2nd probably and pust the car and extablish you get four mostly even sets of resistance with the car travelling equal distance. I think you will find you have 2 then a leap forward past the fourth. Good Luck hope I've been of help. Regards Peter
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There is something very odd about the second recording. It does not have the same characteristics as the first i.e. one big pulse and 3 smaller ones, the second trace has one main one and 2 smaller both when recoding from the front or the rear of the car. This I cannot explain. The timing of these pulses is quite constant which a busted exhaust valve or a piston would show up in the timing although a busted inlet valve would cause the least interruption of the cycle. You will hear and see the effect of that with the filler cap test. Come back and also look at your own time amplitude signatures. I would also point out that the timing implies that the car is ticking over very slowly is this correct what does the rev counter say. Or is this due to the bandwidth of the microphone. With these difficult investigations I use a Knock Sensor and a small amplifier. Regards Peter
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You have a problem, a big problem, after much more analysis it appears that after you revved the engine up at the end of the first recording there was a sharp crack non resonant ( mostly a single sided amplitude spike ) at 10.25 seconds, after which the engine characteristic changed just prior to stalling. When you restarted the engine to make the second recording the car started with the same modified characteristic. This tells me you have either clipped another valve or the gasket has now blown between adjacent cylinders. This engine is very poorly, do not run it again. What is the car worth ??. How do you feel about taking the head off !!. Do the push compression test and come back to me. Do not start the engine. Regards Peter
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Hi mate,
what you are saying sound very plausable ideed, whilst sounded very scary for me :o
Anyhow, the car is a V-reg 2000 5-dr Puegeot 306 in 'L' trim (lowest spec trim), so I guess its not worth alot, when I purchased the car, just before the end of the year (around december 28th 2004) it was worth at a private dealership £3,750. Now it would probably be worth less than £3000, and as the engine has a serious fault (we think), it will be worth even less, possibly scrap value?
I dunno, I have got to get a confirmed diagnosis of the problem. Until then I can't workout weather it will be cheaper to get rid of the car and get another or to fix the problem?
One question though, would the car tick over (however rough) if the pistons/valves and head gasket were messed up?
cheers,
Paul :)
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Hi there mate,
thanks for doing all this audio analysis, very impressive what you've determined! :)
To be honest, I haven't looked at the idle speed (RPM), so that will be my first port of call.
Do you think that if the cranshaft position sensor has been disturbed, it will effect the signal telling the pump when to send fuel down to the injectors?
I've read in the haynes manual that the tolerance (air gap) is set using a feeler gauge, so I guess it pretty slim.
I'm not sure if that when your listening to the tick over, when the car is slow or weather it is to do with that I am using my laptop's built in mic?
I'll have a look at the car soon, once the rain stops, and then I'll post my findings,
thanks for your time mate, much appreciated for that!
cheers,
Paul
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You can hear the difference yourself if you slow the play down: In Media Player Ctrl+Shift+s.
Very good of Peter to spot the difference. Slow it down and the first recording is a definate pop-2-3-4-pop-2-3-4-pop-2-3-4. After the "bang" and in the second recording it's a definate pop-2-3-pop-2-3-pop-2-3. Sounds like it's gone from 4 cylinders to three. Good luck.
--------------
Mike Farrow
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Hi mate,
I see exactly what you mean.
What I need to determine is weather the timing is out, by means of comparing the camshaft to the crankshaft. Does anybody know where the woodruff key on the crankshaft is suppose to 'point' at for correct timing?
Cos if I know this, then I can go a little further to provide a concrete diagnosis about the timing. I would go down the route of doing a compression test, but I don't have one available, and am leaving going to Peugeot's as an absolute last resort due to previous bad experiences with main dealerships,
thanks for the info and help,
cheers,
Paul
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Paul,
Don't worry about the timing now, you've got to get the head off to sort whatever's wrong anyway. I know you're hoping for a quick fix, but with one piston gone already and another making that terrible racket, I doubt there is one. This is not a timing problem.
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Mike Farrow
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Peter,
I think the use of the sound recordings to pinpoint the sound is really rather impressive. I haven't progressed beyond the use of a stethoscope myself!
When you use a knock sensor to obtain a vibration trace, what type of amplifier do you use?, a charge amplifier, or a more conventional type?
number_cruncher
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As far as the 306 is concerned I would not run the engine again. As you can not drive it to an independant diesel garage. I would strip it down to the cam belt, inspect all timings to see if the belt has jumped and assuming not remove the cam sprocket to see if the woodruff key has sheared. Then remove the head and see what has been going on inside. At this point you could still get a garage to come collect it and do the appropriate repairs, you may only be into a 4 to 5 hundred pound bill. A bit expensive for a replacement water pump but a car worth saving I think. Your cam belt tensioning still worries me. Regards Peter
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Hey people,
I have confirmed my worse fears, by taking the cam cover off,
please feel free to comment on what further damaged could be been caused by the breakeage of this part,
Again, many thanks to all of those who have offered advice and replied to my posts.
Ironically I filled in some online forms for reconditioned engines, so lets see...
Pictures below(3):
www.brunel.ac.uk/~ee04pac/personal/1.JPG
www.brunel.ac.uk/~ee04pac/personal/2.JPG
www.brunel.ac.uk/~ee04pac/personal/3.JPG
cheers,
Paul :(
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I doubt that breakage of this part (just a rocker, btw) on its own would have caused any significant damage. The question really to ask is what caused it to break. Only way to know that would be to take the head off and inspect the pistons. When you're in there check for piston damage, foreign matter and cylinder scoring. If everything looks OK then leave the block and just get a reconditioned head.
My reckoning is that this is what we heard at the end of the first recording, and is hence why we only hear 3 cylinders (1 sick) since going through compression.
I'm only going on judgement though, not experience, so Peter might have something different to recommend.
--------------
Mike Farrow
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Hi Number Cruncher. I?ve been using acoustic and contact i.e. knock sensors for many years and have designed an built a few clever pieces of kit that have allowed me to look further into some of my and many others engines. I have even used knock sensors for tuning prior to the easy access to rolling roads. I used to regularly build long stroke Pinto 2.1L, Holby Roller Cam head and 16 to 1 compression 240 BHP normally aspirated twin 50 DCOE?s choked to 48 revs to 8k used for Rally purposes, torque, guts, grunt and revs. This is what was in Malcolm Wilson?s ex works escort that I owned and rallied for 5 or 6 years. Ah good times. !. However back to your question, I use a 2 channel two stage conventional amp giving me a choice of inputs, knock, mic, line DC and A/C coupled DC for the knock sensors, gain 1 to 200 and outputs for a scope HP180C in my case, headphones and line out for recording / PC analysis. I am by profession an electronics engineer so these bits of special kit were easy for me. With S/w like Sound Forge and other around diagnostic became even easier about 15 years ago I guess. Definitely the last 10 years have seen many packages that help but you have to understand engines and rotary analysis. Some spectral analysis is also useful and diagnosis of bearings, big and small ends, piston slap, chains, belts. A knock sensor is great for finding misfires, coil pack failures, burnt or sticking valve all sorts of things sometimes of coarse you need to know where N01 TDC is so a senor on the cylinder and a trigger level control identifies that cylinder if all you want is when it fires rather than true TDC. I use a few magnets to hold sensors on or epoxy putty if on an ali block/head but just holding it on usually suffices. Other uses of the amp are things like 5 turns of wire, although I use a clamp, around an HT cable, you are now measuring the HT current to that plug and a knock sensor can identify a faulty plug ( breakdown ) as the current is ok but the pot fails to fire as the spark is either in the cap or up in the neck of the plug, testing coils, packs ignition amps all sorts of thinks especially those intermittent one that are difficult to find. Record them and sit in front of the PC with a cup of tea and analyse the problem to point you in the right direction. Also very useful for characterising your engine when all is OK so when something does play up you have a baseline for comparison. Before you ask ?why the A/C couple option? This van be used to remove the DC content i.e. the battery voltage so you can see what is going on in the electrics, duff diodes, bouncing brushes in the alternator, voltage transients as current change and may be should not, like fuel pumps surging and should not. That?s it I need a cup of tea. I hope that answers your question. Regards Peter
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If the recently exposed surfaces of the broken metal are cystal like and all the same colour then it was not a metal fracture finally giving way it was a piston smacking a valve i.e the timing went wrong. Off with the head. Regards Peter
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Hey there,
yeah its not looking good is it?!
I'm not heavily technical in the internal engine components, so please forgive my ignorance.
SO a piston would cause the valve to damage that?
Does that mean the piston will be damaged as a consequence of hitting the valves?
All of the other cylinders look fine, well from looking under the camcover.
Well I've got quotes rolling in for replacement engines.
cheers,
Paul :)
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>>I've got quotes rolling in for replacement engines.
Have you spoken to Galv (AKA derv doctor) off the pug forum? I would imagine he'd be able to source you a decent replacement lump.
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Would think you would get away with new valve(s) and rocker(s) without expense of replacement engine or a secondhand head if cam bearings/head casting is damaged. The top of the piston is thick and is usually serviceable after cambelt failure despite being marked by valve head.
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Paul,
Not good :-((
What has happened is that cam timing has gone out of synch with the crank timing (either because you fitted the belt in the wrong place, or not tight enough and it jumped a few teeth). When this happened the valves have not closed at the right time, and one (or more?) has been open when it should have been closed, and a piston has hit it. The piston / con rod / crank has much more inertia than the valve so the valve gets pushed upwards until something gives way to make enough space. This is usually the valve bending, but in the case of HDi engines it seems to break the rockers.
Have a look here:
groups.msn.com/honestjohn/problems.msnw?action=Sho...6
showing a similarly damaged rocker from a cambelt slip. DL took the head off that engine but found no damage, so I think you are going to be 'in luck'. Fit new rocker(s) refit the timing belt (correctly!) and see if it will run OK. If not then it will be head off time.
On the XUD engine (forerunner to the HDi and which uses an almost identical block) the camshaft is timed by inserting an M8 bolt through the crankshaft sprocket into the head (it's at about 4 o'clock on the XUD), and then an 8mm rod into the flywheel through a hole in block flange behind the starter motor. I imagine the HDi will be the same.
I think that the tensioner for the HDi engine is the 'slide' type, and the bolt that secures it has a very low tightening torque. Overtighten and the bolt shears, letting the belt go slack and out of position.
I suggest you arm yourself with a Haynes manual and torque wrench before fixing this!
--
RichardW
Is it illogical? It must be Citroen....
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Ok here's what to do. Strip the covers off and remove the cam belt carefully turn the crank to a half stroke position i.e. not TDC or BDC now rotate the cam sproket and estabmish if the other valves operate and measure the clearance. No clearance when the rocker up means you may have bust a valve head off. Assumming everythings seems OK replace the broken rocker and realign all the pulleys and refit the cam belt. Now do a push compression test and see if you have four evenly spaced compression strokes. You can do this with a driver on the crank pully nut but the push test makes it clearer for a novice. If so remove the used belt and fit a new one as jumped belts often have tooth damage, re-align and tension belt properly, recheck all timings and rotate engine by hand at least three times checking alignments each cycle and when you are really happy start it up. If it runs OK then you are really lucky. If it doesn't then it's only cost a rocker and belt and some time which can be re-used after you have taken the head off. Regards Peter
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And get the tension right this time. Its sounds like you may have had it timed up ok last time, but first cold start slipped it a few teeth.
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Number_Cruncher. Send me an email and I'll give you the pass word to access the audio images for your interest, and a pic of the Malcolm Wilsons Escort taken at a speccial stage of the DCC Championship at Knockhill, I think we won, we won most championships, second one year then too busy to compete and moved on.
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Peter,
Thank you. You have mail!
number_cruncher
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Hey there,
Been a little busy this afternoon, went to see the parents
Anyways, cheers for the advice, will check the valves to see if they line up the same, from a glance they all look alright, even the hydraulic tappet which was located under the broken rocker.
But I think I will replace that one as a matter of precaution along with the rocker.
I have taken some pictures of the engine block with the camshaft housing off.
The camshaft seems to be in a flawless state, i.e. all the oval/egg shaped bits are still perfectly formed, no strange scuffs or deformation, so that all looks cool.
Here are the images:
www.brunel.ac.uk/~ee04pac/personal/4.JPG
www.brunel.ac.uk/~ee04pac/personal/5.JPG
We haven't taken the engine head off yet, but it all seems fine so far. But we will take the head off tomorrow, and go from there.
As for the timing belt tension gauge, I saw one on ebay, A Haynes one but it has 6 days to go and current bid is £0.99, so that will rocket.
However I am having trouble located Haynes' own tools, i.e. a website or catalogue, do any of you know where I could enquire for these?
cheers,
Paul :)
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I wouldn't worry Paul - you could make a fortune selling off those photos as artwork.
It really looks like you've spent hours deliberating the camera angles and focus and this:
www.brunel.ac.uk/~ee04pac/personal/1.JPG
would look nice over my fireplace!
--
Adam
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cheers for the comment :D
best comment I have heard in ages, LOL
Could place the photo in your garage, :P
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The Garage - that's a good idea mate.
With the caption - "How not to adjust the timing on a HDi" ;-)
How much do you want for it?
;-)
--
Adam
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To you............FREE :D
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Only made 24 posts and I'm beginning to like you already.
I'm going to shut up now before all this gets deleted.
--
Adam
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lol,
nah its good to have a sense of humour, is much needed when things have gone wrong elsewhere,
keeps the spirits up, makes a bad situation slightley less worse :)
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Thats really good paul
It makes an excelent windows desktop!
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I'm glad I bought that A2 printer now ;-)
--
Adam
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