I had poor service from an independent VW dealer too, so it's no sure thing that they'll be better.
List of faults on our 150,000 mile Passat filled a side of A4 paper, SWMBO was on the phone to me asap obviously distraught and wondering if the car would make it the 3 miles from the garage back to the house. Interestingly, they were quite keen to sell her a new car that was on the forecourt....
Casting a realistic eye over things shortened the list of faults dramatically and almost a year later it hasn't missed a beat.
Moral: filthy, rotten, stinking, theiving car dealers aren't necessarily main dealers.
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My (ex!) Renault main dealer told me
(a)I had an oil leak calling for a new sump gasket, cost something like £250 on account of the work needed to drop the sump.
(b) The brake pressure distribution valve had seized, replacemnt cost £280.
Regarding (a)I asked why, if I had an oil leak, I had a spotlessly clean garage floor. Shrug of shoulders. Now suspicious, I took (b) to an independent who fixed it in minutes by greasing and freeing a seized pivot on the external link. Who'd allowed it to seize? The main agent, in the course of non-servicing.
I've never been back -- and I'd bought the car from them.
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An afterthought. I realise that, even for main agents these dys, ethics is somewhere you drive through on the way to Sussex, but does it ever cross their minds that such actions are not just unethical but actually criminal? Surely the act of deliberately and falsely claiming that work needs doing amounts to obtaining, or attempting to obtain, by deception. Perhaps a few prosecutions along these lines would concentrate their minds.
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HJ: during another recent thread about VW dealers you said that VW's management was aware of the issue - did they provide any feedback?
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In response to Bill Payer, what do you mean, feedback? VW knows it has a problem with some of its dealers, but it isn't going to tell me which ones or what it has done about it. HJ
The point is VW have known there is a problem with its dealers for about 5 years and has never done pink fluffy dice all about it. They are too arrogant to care, the sad part is I love the cars but hate the dealers !
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Bloke over the road from me has a VW touraeg 4.2 V8. Its just (yesterday) had an electronic meltdown so that nothing would work on it at all (couldn't even get in). So he phones VW customer service who say theyll have someone out to him as soon as possible. 5 hours later they turn up, look at it, say its broken, and say theyll have to take it away and bring a loan car. So, after another 2 hours a low-loader with, wait for it, a lovely pea green Lupo on turns up. They say its all they had available at the local dealer and it was either that or nothing. Needless to say he wasnt best pleased and has vowed to never touch anything with a VW badge on it again.
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Unfortunately the sad reality of the situation is that conning customers like this DOES pay for the dealerships.
Ok so we pick up on it whenever we see it and try to make as much noise as we can, but the scams work and they get away with it in the majority of cases.
If it didn't pay, they wouldn't do it. They may be thoroughly immoral and their activities may often be technically criminal, but they certainly aren't stupid.
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Just over a year ago I had a similar experience at the local VW stealers. They claimed front wishbones had gone on my 2001 Passat and the thick end of £900 was needed. A month later I took it to the local Seat dealer for a service and pre-MOT check, they said wishbones were fine and the MOT garage said they were fine as well. The local independant who saw the car in Jan this year for a major service said they were fine and the MOT place which saw the car last week also said they were fine. Car has done 20K since the VW place they needed replacing.
Now I wonder who was right about the state of the wishbones..........
as always
Mark
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"stealers."
The word is "Dealers" - you may be overwhelmed by your wit in cleverly substituting the word stealers, but I am not. Its asking for trouble - you do realise that it is an accusation of an illegal act ? Now you may be prepared to back the statement up, but we are not.
So a general comment to all - dealer, not stealer. And you should resist any other cunning subsititutions of devastating wit as well.
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Ok, since I have been asked in e-mail, a little clarity is perhaps called for.
I find the whole thing about subsituting "stealers" for "dealers" tiresome from a humour [or lack of] perspective.
It is also needlessly risky; imagine that you and I discuss the same dealership - without intention I name it without insulting it and you refer to it as a stealership without naming it; before you know where were are, the Backroom has a problem.
So, not funny and potentially troublesome - therefore just don't.
Where something is even more blatant - such as "Fords" and "Frauds" (and I just made that up) then its even more unwise.
I struggle to believe that anybody is so struck on this as an example of humour that they would find it limiting not to be able to survive without it.
Thank you.
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Where something is even more blatant - such as "Fords" and "Frauds"
>>
just try a forum seach for "hal------"
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That borders on the ridiculous. Were they trying to sell you whole new wishbones? Not just bushes or balljoints or something?
The wishbone is a solid lump of metal and doesn't really have any 'working parts'. The idea that one could 'fail' after four years is simply incredulous.
If the British Leyland ones on my Spitfire can last 33 years, I think some modern German examples should be good for more than four.
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>>The wishbone is a solid lump of metal and doesn't really have any 'working parts'. The idea that one could 'fail' after four years is simply incredulous.
See "Lancia Betas - the rusty years" for details on how this is possible
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The wishbone is a solid lump of metal and doesn't really have any 'working parts'. The idea that one could 'fail' after four years is simply incredulous.
What about the bushes? I swear the bushes are attached there. I could be wrong though.
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The time and effort (and varying results) involved in swapping out the bushes on a wishbone mean it is often more cost effective and reliable to simply fit new wishbone assemblies, complete with bushes. Rear trailing arms are another prime example.
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My original post was drawing attention not just to excessive charging (£115 for a front wheel alignment) but also that the dealer was not interested in looking at the fault (under warranty) that the customer took the car in for. They had the car for a day and it appears that they did not investigate the knocking noise at all; instead they appear to use this as an opportunity to "sell". Wanting to keep the car for three days is OTT just to locate the source of the knocking (I found it in about 15mins, including a 10 min test drive).
I was shown the paperwork for this car (the dealer gave the customer a kind of MoT-style check-list with faults ticked on it and a quote for the tyres and alignment). I find £115 an incredible price for a front wheel alignment. I often take cars to a local specialist suspension garage when they put them on a modern 'Jim Beam' laser aligner. The cost of that is £59 inc. all the adjustment work, front and back.
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Aprilia,
Does this 'Jim Beam' system do a full geometry check, or just front/rear toe? As modern VW's (including polos) have adjustable camber/castor and toe, the dealer will want to check this. When I had the alignment checked on my old VW polo after noticing uneven tyre wear, the camber was out, not the toe (1 hours labour).
My new touran is even worse (as are Passats, Golf V's...). You can't check the tracking (toe) without loading the front suspension. £180 to check thankyou at my prefered dealer! Its still £80 at an independant.
On a general note, as I and others have said before, VW dealers are a mixed bunch, and all expensive. I won't touch my local one with a barge pole, but the next nearest ones are OK.
Joe
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The strategy of telling you of a horrendous list of often miniscule faults, seems to be quite common in VaG dealers now. I think it is a deliberate revenue-boosting move. If criticized, all they have to say is that our policy is to maintain VaG cars to 'as-new' standard. However quite apart from the fact that this is impractical, it isn't even close to economic at their labouor rates.
I have a fairly new Audi, just coming up to its first service, and I'm damm sure I am going to be clear with them that I do not want any non-warranty or non-service specific work done on my car when it goes in.
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As far as I can recall, the quote included replacement of the wishbones for the reasons No Dosh mentioned, the bushes and joints are part of the assemblies and it would be "quicker" to swop components than to dismantle and and fettle them. I did find a complete assembly for both sides on one of the Euro spares type sites for about £350 but given several other professionals gave the opinion that replacement was uneccessary I did not feel the need to purchase these.
as always
Mark
as always
Mark
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What really saddens me, Graham, is that you are absolutely right.
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If main dealer mechanics (or any other mechanics) have trouble replacing suspension bushes, then maybe they need a little 'back to basics' training?
Perhaps a little less reliance on electronic fault diagnosis and the 'whole new assembly' approach would make them better mechanics?
What does a bush cost? £2.50 tops? What does a wishbone cost? Three figures probably. It must be a very difficult job if it's more economical to fit a whole new wishbone assembly...
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I quite agree, not knowing a great deal about these assemblies (but having looked at an exploded parts diagram) I can see several joints which I presume pivot on a metal or nylon bush and I would have thought these could be pressed out and replaced. Though the skill needed to make sure these are suitably aligned is probably greater that that required to undo and redo a number of bolts. Therefore whilst a swop of the assemblies maybe "quicker" it also brings with it a greater cost as more components are replaced. It makes me wonder if they even have a press in the workshop.
as always
Mark
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Though the skill needed to make sure these are suitably aligned is probably greater that that required to undo and redo a number of bolts.
At £50 per hour, or whatever dealers are charging these days, a customer is entitled to a considerable degree of skill from the mechanic. They'd be foolish to expect it, though :(
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I talked this through with my local Alfa specialist as the 156 has an appetite for rear trailing arm bushes. The bushes are £4, whilst the whole trailing arm is £35.
Factor in 45 minutes of labour to get the old bushes drifted out and new one's pressed in and you are, at best, cost neutral. That's at an independent. Try the same at main dealer rates and the complete trailing arm makes sense. This assumes that one bush is worn and the other A-ok.
With front wishbones you normally have three bushes. Do you remove the wishbone and replace only the failed one, leaving part worn ones in-situ? Do you replace all three? Certainly the latter makes sense as otherwise you will be duplicating the work in a short while as the part worn bushes wear at a greater rate than the new one.
Suddenly a complete new wishbone starts to make sense.
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I must be the odd one out on this post because since I bought my Polo from the main dealers "Gilders of Sheffield" three years ago I have been very satisfied with the work they have done and the courteous way they have treated me.Having said that, so they should at approximately £65 a hour labour charges
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I've done a bit of bush replacement recently, and there are a few simple tips which make it easier and more effective.
If you car 'eats' bushes, see if you can find some polyurethane bushes to the same pattern - they last much longer than rubber ones.
Getting old ones out should require nothing more than lots of penetrating oil, a drift, a club hammer and a vice.
Use washing-up liquid (not oil) to lubricate the new ones as you press them in. Oil will help destroy them over a relatively short period of time. If you can't get them in with washing-up liquid and a vice then they're too big, no wonder they break up - the structure has been almost destroyed forcing them in.
The bush housing must be cleaned to the point of being spotless. This is commonly disregarded and causes most problems.
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The problem with replacement polyurethane bushes is that they are less compliant than the OE ones. Whilst most are available in a variety of shore ratings (stiffness), they are invariably of a higher shore rating than the originals, hence claims of superior longevity and durability combined with more responsive handling. That more responsive handling will translate into a more jittery and/or noisy ride in most instances as the OE bushes are usually a compromise between longevity, ride compliance and NVH. The Polyurethane ones, however, are usually sold on the basis of lifespan and handling, NOT ride comfort and reduced NVH.
I'm toying with the idea of putting PU bushes on my 156, but need to have a spin in one that has had them fitted before I take the plunge as there are numerous tales of "squeak, squeak, squeak" after these have been fitted.
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I can vouch for the competency and courtesy of Gilbert Lawton,
Macclesfield. They had a tough job taking over from the much lamented Links Garage.
Expensive though - but nice loan cars!
--
I wasna fu but just had plenty.
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" there are numerous tales of "squeak, squeak, squeak" after these have been fitted."
People have gotten around this by drilling and tapping in a grease nipple.
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You shouldn't use washing up liquid it has a high salt content and promotes rusting in the bush housing.
Normally use plenty of vaseline on poly bushes or swarfega for rubber.
Jim
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I'm afraid I disagree Jim.
Although I will concede that what I should have written was 'warm water with washing-up liquid' rather than implying neat washing-up liquid.
Vaseline and other oily substances never dry completely. Which means that the bushes constantly move about in their housings rather than drying to a tight fit as they do if you use warm soapy water.
I'm surprised people still use vaseline. The instructions with any set of poly bushes tend to say in very large letters that nothing oil-based should be used to fit them.
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Most PU bushes have stainless inserts do no problems there, and some suspension components are alloy rather than steel to reduce unsprung weight. Now alloys can corrode just as much as steel, so I agree that any exposure to salt is bad (do a Google for Passat wishbones and corrosion for empirical evidence if it were ever needed). Notwithstanding that, there is the small matter of the car getting a near constant spray of salt water for 4 months of the year.
A little dilute washing up liquid wouldn't seem to be here or there in the grand scheme of things.
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This may not be true now, as the formula will have changed, but back in the 80s, the company my brother worked for had checked and Fairy Liquid did not have any added salt. Main use here is as a cheap bulking agent.
Any chemists here?
WD40 by the way does not attack rubber that badly, as it does not contain much oil and the water attractor can be washed out. I've used it on shock absorber bushes and the shockers wore out first.
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Yep, I'm a chemist. By training and qualification though, not currently by occupation.
WD40 IS oil.
It's not really about anything attacking the rubber or PU, although this doesn't help. Yeah, hydrocarbons degrade rubber (do a Google for Vietcong, grenade, elastic band, and petrol tank), but mainly the lighter fractions.
What I'm getting at is the physical rather than chemical properties of the lubricant used to insert the bushes. If you were to disassemble it six months later, a bush inserted with any sort of oil would be relatively easy to extract - the oil would still be there, making it easy to move. A bush inserted with a water-based lubricant would be totally dry and stuck fast in position - you'll need some force and more lubricant to get it out.
If that oiled-in bush can be removed easily, it can move within the housing under pressure. And if a bush moves within the housing while doing it's job, it wears quickly.
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englighten me - !
googling for vietcong grenade "elastic band" "petrol tank" found no results
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englighten me - ! googling for vietcong grenade "elastic band" "petrol tank" found no results
I imagine they put a grenade in a fuel tank with an elastic band ready to pull the pin out when as it got eaten away.
Result? BANG
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"I imagine they put a grenade in a fuel tank with an elastic band ready to pull the pin out when as it got eaten away."
Surely the pin will have already been pulled and the elastic band used to keep the lever down.
Can't help thinking that if cars in Vietnam ran on KY Jelly then the above device wouldn't work very well.
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What about something like the water based jelly they use for ultrasounds?
OK OK...KY....
Blush.
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8< snip 8<
Sorry - all you innuendo experts, get started now!
Er, I don't think so. Take your inuendo elsewhere. DD
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KY would be ideal. You simply need water-based lubricant rather than oil-based, so that it dries quickly leaving a tight fit.
The Vietcong used to sneak into US bases and drop grenades into fuel tanks. These grenades had the pins pulled out and an elastic band around their body - holding the lever down.
In time the petrol degraded the rubber and the lever was freed - with predictable results.
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