Now that I'm a master criminal of the first order, OK it was 3 points and a £60 fine for speeding over 30 mph, do I now have a criminal record? It may sound daft, but all these forms that you now have to complete these days and the fact that I work in public service area, what gets put in the box when it asks about a criminal record? I know that you have to inform your insurance company, they said OK but it won't affect you as it's happening to so many other people these days. Good for Churchill.
Any sensible comment would be welcome, and it may settle a pub debate..
Slight tweak to a historical subject line !
Edited by Pugugly on 12/03/2008 at 16:45
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My understanding is that if you get the points via a fixed penalty notice then it is not treated as a criminal conviction.
DVD or PU may be able to point you to a definitive answer.
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There are three types of motoring offence, Minor, Major and Hybrid.
Minors (ignoring signs, speeding, etc) do not carry a criminal record, Majors and Some hybrids do. For example D&D is a criminal offence for which you can be chucked in jail, and is time served (ie no longer counts as a criminal record) after 10 years.
In general you should reveal ALL items (inc speeding) unless specifically not asked for. Some checking (ie for security clearance or for public positions like child care, taxi license etc will reveal speeding offences (and local police cautions), and they may come back to you and say "why didnt you mention this"?
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>>) unless specifically not asked for
For once, not being pedantic because the difference is important;
What RF meant was "specifically excluded from the question".
i.e. "have you, within the last three years, blah blah blah". thus excluding blah blahs over 3 years old.
The difference is important because, certainly within insurnce, they don't have to ask. You have to tell them. They ask questions to help the thing along, but they don't need to.
Examples of questions which they might not ask, but which you must tell them would be;
Do you frequently use other cars using your DOC extension ?
Do you carry really expensive stuff which you frequently leave in the car ?
Are you frequently parking the car somewhere really high risk, even though you live elsewhere ?
etc. etc.
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To clarify even further. I was thinking about specific statmemts for example I have seen:
"except speeding convictions"
or
"except parking violations"
so I was trying to say - unless there is a specific "exception" include it.
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When I had to apply for MoD Security Clearance I still had 3pts on my Driving Licence, so I played it safe and ticked the 'yes' box for the Criminal Convictions question, and wrote the details on the form. Everything went through OK.
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As a public servant needing enhanced disclosure, I've had to answer this question. You should reveal everything. It's very unlikely that a 3 point speeding conviction will raise anything but a smirk, but a former colleague of mine was stuck with having to reveal her caution at age 18 for attempted fraudulent use of someone else's railcard. It's only more serious offences, such as dangerous driving, d & d etc. which will start to bring your professional progress into jeopardy, but you should still declare everything.
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ask the local safety camera partnership and they'll say it's a hanging offence!
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ask the local safety camera partnership and they'll say it's a hanging offence!
But drawing and quartering are thankfully only applied in particularly serious cases, such as "failing to remember who was driving at the time".
;-)
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ask the local safety camera partnership and they'll say it's a hanging offence!
they might say that in public, but actually they'll want you to carry on doing it so they can carry on raking the money in.
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It's only more serious offences, such as dangerous driving, d & d etc. which will start to bring your professional progress into jeopardy, but you should still declare everything.
Or, often, serious lapses such as a failure to mention a minor offence when asked to....
If it's irrelevant but mentioned then it should be ignored. If it's marginally relevant but not mentioned then you have a problem!
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Thanks all for your answers. Just as I thought. As they say, confession is good for the soul. As for Blue Haddock, harsh but fair methinks..
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You're safe, no Criminal Record ;)
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Im not plain stupid, just a special kind of stoopid.
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DVD or the legal beagles will give a more informed opinion than mine.
However it is my understanding that if you get a fixed penalty notice(and pay it) you have technically not been CONVICTED of any offence.
If you challenge the offence and the matter goes to court(even for a minor offence like parking) you are now convicted of an offence - obviously if found guilty. This would be on your 'record'.
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What happened to the notion of 'spent convictions'?
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'Spent convictions' don't exist within certain employers - MOD, Security, working with children etc.
It depends on who is asking as to whether spent convictions are reported.
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Fixed Penalty Notices (endroseable or otherwise) DO NOT EQUAL CRIMINAL RECORD - even if you contest them (and loose) at Court.
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Im not plain stupid, just a special kind of stoopid.
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Fixed Penalty Notices (endroseable or otherwise) DO NOT EQUAL CRIMINAL RECORD - even if you contest them (and loose) at Court.
I deliberately put 'record' in my post - not criminal record.
I have no idea what constitutes a 'criminal record' as opposed to 'police record', and a search of the internet did not enlighten me.
I recall that Ian Huntley - the Soham murderer - had extensive entries on his police file/record for alleged offences involving underage girls, but had not been convicted for these alleged offences.
If my contention that a fixed penalty offence/violation is not a conviction is correct, it is obviously still recorded - presumably at DVLC. This will be taken into account if further motoring offences are committed. If I have a string of fixed penalty motoring offences/violations can they be taken into account in sentencing for a non-motoring offence?
What happens for non-motoring fixed penalty offences? dropping litter for example.
If I am a serial litter dropper, can these previous offences be taken into account?
Does a Police Caution give you a criminal record? Presumably it is recorded.
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Fixed Penalty Notices (endroseable or otherwise) DO NOT EQUAL CRIMINAL RECORD - even if you contest them (and loose) at Court.
Is this really correct? My understanding is that if, for example, you contest (and lose) a fixed penalty for speeding then you're likely to end up with (at least) a bigger fine. The fact that you've then been convicted in court means it becomes a criminal conviction.
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If you had been dealt with for disqual driving, causing death by dangerous driving, or i.e. anything that would require prints and DNA to be taken from you and would give you a "club number" to use plod parlance, you would have a criminal conviction. 3pts on your brief for a speeding or traffic light offence etc doesn't count.
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... do I now have a criminal record?
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Cardew I was merely responding to the concern(s) expressed by the originator of this Forum thread in my post.
The 'record' you are referring to would be only local to the Force where the offence was committed, perhaps on the Command & Control system or even the Force Intelligence Database. Other than that, the details would be used for statistical purposes and for identifying crme trends. Any interaction with the Police which results in something being written down, will result in a 'record' being created on some database somewhere.
This is different from the Criminal Record that people refer to - which is the 'real deal'. As I said, being issued with a ticket (and even contensting it) DOES NOT GIVE YOU A CRIMINAL RECORD. I hope that it sets the 'record' (sorry couldn't resist the pun) straight :)
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Im not plain stupid, just a special kind of stoopid.
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criminal convictions:
if you seek an insurance quotation, you will generally be told
" Details of convictions should include fixed penalty points and disqualifications, and whether the driver has had any criminal convictions (other than for the motoring offences above) "
i believe that it used to be the case that the visa-waiver scheme for travel to the usa specifically included any uk motoring offence as a criminal record, and spent convictions for any offence (motoring or not) were not considered spent.
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i believe that it used to be the case that the visa-waiver scheme for travel to the usa specifically included any uk motoring offence as a criminal record, and spent convictions for any offence (motoring or not) were not considered spent.
This may or may not be true, but it's been established that the US Immigration service does not have access to the UK criminal records, so there's no way they could know.
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but it's been established that the US Immigration service does not have access to the UK criminal records, so there's no way they could know.
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well, to prove your statement false, here is one way they could know: they could ask to see your driving licence and if you have any current endorsements ( or expired ones that you have not had removed ), they could see your record.
i would bet that telling lies on an immigration form counts far more against your entry to the usa than declaring the facts about your past convictions.
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I once had a conversation with an immigration officer about the visa waiver form.
The question was something like "are you know or have you ever been involved in terrorist activities ?"
I was asking him who on earth would say yes ? Because I'm fairly sure a terrorist wouldn't.
His answer was that the burden of proof to show that you had lied, or been less than frank, on your immigration form was significantly lower than that required to prove you guilty of terorrism in a court of law.
And that to be associated with terrorist activities might or might not be against the law, but to lie about it was definitely so.
Seemed a reasonable explanation to me at the time.........
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>> i believe that it used to be the case that the >> visa-waiver scheme for travel to the usa specifically included any uk >> motoring offence as a criminal record, and spent convictions for any >> offence (motoring or not) were not considered spent. >> This may or may not be true, but it's been established that the US Immigration service does not have access to the UK criminal records, so there's no way they could know.
The subject of entering USA on a Visa Waiver, or indeed a Visa, is discussed more on some USA forums than speeding and cameras are on this one.
It is important that the above quote is corrected.
Firstly there is a reciprocal arrangement where UK and USA authorities have access to the criminal records from the other country. Details of how and when this information is requested is not in the public domain; however with millions of visitors it is reasonable to assume it is not routine.
Details of all passengers on a plane are sent ahead to the USA and everyone is now fingerprinted and photographed on entry. It is very easy for US immigration authorities to check on anyone they whom they have suspicions. Clearly they are more interested in terrorism and Serious crime.
The Visa Waiver form asks if you have ever been arrested or convicted of a crime of moral turpitude. The US Immigration and US Embassy regulations give no guidance on how to interpret that question; except to say that minor traffic offences do not debar you - no definition of minor traffic offences. As you are entering under US law it specifically states that no offence is time expired. Also if you were arrested even if it was a case of mistaken identity, let alone not guilty, you must declare it and you are ineligible for entry under a Visa Waiver
The US Embassy absolutely refuse to discuss in writing, or on the phone, this issue. Their stock answer is if you have any doubts apply for a Visa.
It is the definition of 'conviction' that causes much soul searching amongst some.
It was in one of these forums that a policeman posted the information that a fixed penalty notice is not a conviction as you have not been found guilty in a court; but an appearance in court for a similar offence is a conviction.
It is pertinent to point out that before the introduction of fixed penalty notices all offences however trivial resulted in a court case. Thus a 5 shilling fine for riding a bike without lights some 40 years ago meant a conviction.
Undoubtedly if you chose to lie about even a serious and recent offence there is only an outside chance you will be found out; however as Mark points out you have lied and that may come make to haunt you.
In the future it will certainly be possible for technology to routinely compare fingerprints/photos and check CRO records. It is perfectly feasible that all passengers will then be routinely checked out. To forestall any 'infringement of Civil Rights' argument, you don't have to travel to America and if you do you will have to agree to this procedure.
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"Firstly there is a reciprocal arrangement where UK and USA authorities have access to the criminal records from the other country. Details of how and when this information is requested is not in the public domain; however with millions of visitors it is reasonable to assume it is not routine."
To clarify further. There is no link between US and UK records*. Any request for a trawl of UK records has to be raised and approved manually and is therefore time consuming and cant be done during UK/US flight times.
*Another tale hangs on this. Remember the oft delayed (by days) BA flights to Washington? This was being used as a pawn or bargaining chip by the US. A plan to link the US/UK records (well US access to UK not the other way round) was being discussed but little or no progress was being made. The delayed flights provided the required momentum and plans are now progressing.
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"To clarify further. There is no link between US and UK records*. Any request for a trawl of UK records has to be raised and approved manually and is therefore time consuming and cant be done during UK/US flight times."
Very true RF. However time is not a problem as US Immigration has plenty of room at the airport where people can stay while they await the resul of the trawl.
I do know of cases where people had previously lied about offences on the Visa Waiver form. Getting cold feet with the new procedures in place they decided to apply for a Visa and were refused - not because of the offence but because they had previously lied.
I really do not want to be alarmist about the situation as currently it is not a big problem. However people need to think ahead as my gut feeling is this will become a big issue in the years ahead.
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There still seems to be some confusion here I think.
A criminal record is one that would appear on the Police NATIONAL Computer together with your CRO (Criminal Record Office) number. In general, a CRO number is attached to you if you have been convicted of, or cautioned for a criminal offence. A criminal offence would be something like criminal damage, ABH, shoplifting, money laundering, burglary, disqualified driving, death by dangerous driving. It does not relate to minor infringements of Road Traffic Act or Con & Use Act such as speeding, going through red lights, defective brakes, missing tail light etc. These minor offences may appear on a criminal conviction record but only where in connection with conviction of a serious criminal offence such as Taking and Driving Away, and dealt with at same time.
If you go for a job where a "clean license" is demanded by the prospective employer, to fail to apprise them of the fact that you have points on your brief may open you up to a criminal conviction, i.e. obtaining a pecuniary advantage by deception (getting a job by deceiving employer) That is a different matter altogether. If you are applying for a job as a Banana Ripener at Spitalfields Fruit Market and all you do is spray polymethylmethaculate gas on the bananas, it don't matter squat that you have 3 points.
Local police records are just that. If police are called to a minor disturbance and stop three hooded yobs (at Bluewater!) their names will go into a local database. That is not a criminal record. If they stop you driving your car and warn you of future conduct, that is not a conviction and will probably be a local record.
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Tack sums it up succinctley in Para 2 above.
There are "recordable offences" which attract a 'national' Criminal Record Office Number (CRO) for the individual together with Photograph, fingerprint and DNA record. These are the serious offences as outlined. It is these that are referred to as Criminal records and also fiqure in the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act spent convictions in certain cases (but they stay on file for life IIRC)
The minor road traffic offences which attract an endorsement also attract a record nationally at DVLA for totting purposes and looked at as a conviction and generally asked for as such when past history is sought.
www.tinyurl.com/dpyu3 an overview from CRB
www.tinyurl.com/9cwmt list of recordable offences which
from time to time are added to.
DVD
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Under Section 7 of the Data Protection Act 1998 'Right of Subject Access' an individual is entitled to make a Subject Access request to an organisation for information which may be held about them.
If you wish to obtain up-to-date details of any criminal records in the UK, you will need to make a subject access request directly to the police force in the area where you currently or last resided in the UK.
This Subject Access Police Contacts (pdf, 20kb, new window) document gives the contact details of each constabulary. www.crb.gov.uk/pdf/Subject%20Access%20Police%20Con...f
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In the USA, criminal records are consider public information and anyone can see them. Several companies even provide instant access to criminal record backgroundsearch.com-background-search over the internet. However, certain types of jobs (such as teacher, health care workers, emergency responders, nannies, coaches, volunteers, etc) have to get both local and national criminal records check through the FBI.
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Er, local, how did you dig this 3-year old thread up?
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Er local how did you dig this 3-year old thread up?
Some threads are "spent" after 3 years, but they remain on the record.
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Cliff, yes, I really should have asked WHY local dug up and posted to this thread. Curiosity killed the feline predator. Edited to add my 1987 motto: Yesterday I couldn't spell engineer, now I are one.
Edited by Billy Whizz on 12/03/2008 at 17:39
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