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if you ever wondered where our money went as motorists, £100 million goes to the EU every day, and the only thing we get for that is - we are allowed to be in the EU. it makes you wish we could pullout of the EU, doesnt it.
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Yes.
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But its really too late. So what do we do now? I mean dont we all want be like France? What a wonderful country, due to their fears about being totally overtaken by the germans we have the CAP which makes our food cost about 30% more than it should, and discriminates against the third world. Wonderful. So people in this country go over to france and spend all their money on cheap beer and food, because this country is " a rip off". Irony anyone. I mean we really should copy the French, with their entire population and protectionist descriminatory policies they have managed to equal the GDP of California.
In all seriousness, i dont like the Eu and its institutions, but what political leaders actually offer any alternative? Duncan Smith- who are they- lives in his own little world which no longer exists. The fities were a long time ago now, someone should tell him.
Ben
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Not all well in the fifties - and after, remember the out of hand unions?
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No man is an Island, not to be part of the EU would be detremental to Britain in the long term.
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Not true Eleanor,
They are after our gold and oil reserves and Princess Bliar wants to be Queen of Europe.
Happy New year
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Nothing to do with motoring today, huh? Read Mark Steyn in the Telegraph Opinion yesterday on the Euro, with his comments on the EU vs the US.
I long ago decided I want nothing of the UK and even less of Europe. Where I live may have its faults but:
Gas is just over a pound a gallon
I bought a brand new US 4WD V-8 truck for the equive of GBP16k
My living costs inc food, utilities, housemaid, local taxes, gas, air-con are on average GBP700 p.m.
Medical care is as good as anywhere, granted you have to pay, although insurance costs about GBP1000 p.a. (I am in my early sixties)
Traffic and pollution is awful bit only in the city. After recently going to LOndon maybe not as bad as I thought compared with there.
I am 2 hours away from some of the world's finest beaches and diving.
Spectacular scenery
I pay no tax whatsoever provided I have no income arising in the Philippines
It rains a lot 6 months a year but it never goes below about 18 C at night (Unless in the mountains)
Roads are generally bad I agree
People speak or at least understand some English
Beer is GBP3.50 for a case of 24
Gin is 85p a bottle (gilbeys)
LAw and order can be an issue, so it is in Britain.
Drugs also, likewise Britain
The RP is a free democracy (not like Singapore, Malaysia or HK) Volatile politics it's true, but they don't bother foreigners
The women are among the world's most beautiful (AND available)
We have Marks and Spencers
International cuisine dinner for two with wine say GBP30
A new Corolla Altis (I just checked) is the quiv of GBP11k, I don't know what it is in UK
Road tax is about GBP15 p.a.
Comp Insurance (the car is insured not the driver so everybody pays the same premiums) for the Corolla would be about GBP650 p.a. Quite dear, I guess.
All this and more for depositing US Dollars 50k in the Central Bank for a Philippine Retiree Visa. You can live here as long as you want and the money can be used for anything provided it doesn't leave the country.
Who wants the EU? What's the point of it anyway? It's just an institution whose soale mission is to perpetuate itself. Look at the Euro notes they don't even have real buildings on them. Gimme a greenback at least everyone knows what it's worth!
Happy Motoring everyone and a Great New Year.
THe Growler.
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Sounds like prison
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You've stayed in some strange prisons
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I voted "no" in 1975, but nobody listened.
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The truth is more like that the EU cannot survive in the long term without Britain, hence their keenness to get us to join the euro as an irrevocable step to full union.
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I wish people would stop thinking it's inevitable. To the people who say we can't go alone, the answer is a straightforward one. The UK is the world's 4th largest economy, if we maintain our current growth rate we will overtake German GDP within four years, that makes us No.3 and the biggest economy in Europe.
France and Germany want the UK in because we have the one of the largest finance sectors in the world and it will give the Euro the credibility it needs. Frankly, it's laughable that Frankfurt see themselves as the hub of the Euro and the financiers know it and the EU knows it.
The Eurozone so far has stagnation in the German economy with growth stalling repeatedly. The Irish and Portuguese are in an inflationary boom and are finding it difficult to control. The French economy is in an 18 month boom-bust cycle.
France and Germany have around 10% unemployment, we have 3%.
I want nothing to do with a political stunt that keeps 10+ million people out of work and destroys free enterprise and competition; I see that as immoral.
They need us, we don't need their restrictive practices or excessive regulation, look where it has got them. They are the Sick man of Europe, how ironic.
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From tomorrow the Euro will be used by more people than currently use the US Dollar. The Euro economy as a whole is far more powerful than Britain's. It's no longer useful to talk about individual economies in Europe; the British economy may be stronger than France's or Italy's on their own, but lump them together with the other Eurozoners, and we're way behind the big boys. And anyway, if nothing else it will be much more convenient all round when we're using it. That way I won't have to have three bank accounts in different currencies to run my business competitively. Staying out is already costing UK businesses big money in currency charges, and guess what? Quite a few are already sourcing materials on the continent of Europe so they can keep their money offshore. That's costing us in jobs, too. It's fine and dandy for the moment while our economy is doing well, but when a recession hits, or when the traders in New York wake up one morning and decide to dump the Pound, as they surely will, we'll be in big trouble - it won't be as bad as the Argentina/US Dollar problem, but the effects will be of the same type.
Chris
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One point that is not very often heard is that the whole point of the single currency is to remove barriers to trade. However, the currency itself and associated costs are not the biggest barriers. It is the differnt nature and levels of tax systems. If a group of countries want to get the benefit of all adopting the same currency, the must also adopt the same tax system. I do not want to see French and German levels of taxation in ths country. We would be giving away all our advantage. I think this will be a far greater cost to your business.
Im not concerned with overall GDP, this figure can be used very misleadingly. The concept of purchasing power parity is particularly important here. PPP per capita is far more improtant figure in estimating "standards of living"..
The economies of China and Indain are set for enormous growth in the near future. We dont we trade with them. Instead we choose to join a group of countries all joined together for fear of being outdone by one another, that has some of the most slow and beauracratic governmental institutions in the world, and support completely rediculous policies such as the CAP.
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Last night on BBC World I watched a news item where comments from all over Europe were solicited on the feelings toward Euro introduction. Two items stand out -- one, a German banker who noted that only a min ority of Germans were in favor and that the test of the Euro would be the longer term one of whether Germany would stay IN the Euro. The second was the endless parrotting of how much easier the Euro will make it for holidaymakers. If that's the best they can come up with as an argument then the damn thing might be doing better service as lavatory paper.
Again, the EU is not a democratic institution. It will continue to bulldoze consolidation and centralization until the remnants of any sovereignty of it members are gone. It is about control, plain and simple. The Euro is another example. If we can control your currency we have another hand on your goolies. The wretched thing can't even hold its value, from 117 at launch vs the greenback to 87 something now.
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Surely the reverse could happen ?
A few countries within the euro zone having political/economic probems will make any country outside the euro very attractive to investors.
Do people remember the european exchange rate mechanism ERM from 1990 ?
total disaster.
Centralistion of power is always a bad idea ,Britain should run its own economy not failed politicians in Brussels ( Neil Kinnock/leon Brittan....)
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The size of the Euro economy should spread the load over the whole area, making recession gentler. A recession in Italy will be much the same as a recession in Staffordshire would be for the UK: not a big deal for the economy as a whole, and a whole lot better for the Italians than if they had to deal with it in isolation. The UK left the ERM because of speculators devaluing Sterling. George Soros was the main culprit. Our currency, and our economy, is much more vulnerable to that if we stay out. The fact is we haven't had full control of our economy for decades, and it's nothing to do with the EU, just international trade. The Euro will make such fluctuations less damaging to those countries using it. In world markets, size matters.
Chris
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This is not true. If there is recession in one country the central bank may wish to reduce interest rates. if they do and they are unsuitable for this country we will just have to put up with them. Not good. Our economies are no way near as closly linked as they should be for such a policy to work.
Ben
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ChrisR,
I agree with your points 100%. However the discussion started on our membership of the EU and seems to have migrated to the merits of GB adopting the Euro as its currency. Joining the Euro has divided informed and moderate politicians of both the major parties, but few want us to leave the EU.
The loss of Sovereignty argument appears to be a major factor for opponents of the Euro. Lets assume we take the plunge and join; and the economy does well. We will never know if we would have done better or worse had we stayed out.
Bob H
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There is no reason we could not pull out of the EU, Switzerland is happy and successful even though it surrounded by EU countries. I don't see why we should prop up Greece, Turkey and the other hopefuls from Eastern Europe.
The world will not ignore us if we leave and we can trade more widely.
There is a case to join NAFTA.
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This is a very naive opinion. The implications of pulling out entirely are huge. It would be a very complicated step.
Ben
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Why should we join a bloated European Union when they can't even enforce their own laws. How long has France refused to allow the sale of British Beef, and what has the EU done? Nothing!
How many Eurocrats actually turn up and do a full days work? Very few
Would you like to be extradited to Greece on some trumped up charge that isn't even legal in this country?
If we do get sucked into Europe, I'm emigrating to Australia..or New Zealand...or anywhere!
Andy
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Ben
On the contrary, the adverse implications of pulling out would, at present, be purely political. Phoney Tony's chances of becoming El Presidanti of Europe would go down the drain.
On the economic front, we would no longer have to contribute to the EC budget, we would be free to trade with whoever we wish worldwide, we would be free of the mad Common Agricultural Policy, we would be able to return UK fishing waters to UK boats, we would be able to exchange the dotty VAT system for a simple sales tax, prices of foodstuffs would fall, the threat of having to pay for German pensions as well as our own would be removed, we would be able to remove the useless tier of Members of the European Parliament (do you know who yours is and what he/she does? No, I thought not).
There really are no valid reasons for staying in, are there.
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I dont think i can agree that the only difficulties are the political ones you describe. For example the european court is superior to the Uk legal system. It can overrule any decision made by our home secretary if it chooses. How are you going to sort out problems like this overnight? It would take years and years to withdraw.
Ben
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let it take years. at the end of it all we would be separate, we could be part of the commonwealth again, dealing with america, australia, hong kong and all the other countries.
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Brian, you are quite right. The sooner we leave the 'Socialist State of Europe' with its loony interfering policies, the better. Lashing previously independent countries together didn't work for the USSR and it won't work over here. All it will lead to (as we are already seeing) is bloated central control and a quasi police state.
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i think that we should get a working mans party together, and when we get in we should pull out of the EU, imagine what this country could do with £100 million every day, we could have NO tax on petrol, some of the best hospitals in the world, a wonderful education system. when you consider that we were part of the commonwealth, we were friends with america, australia, hong kong etc etc. now all we have is the boring and sad little EU.
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I have never read any thing as stupid for a long time,If you knew anything about the EU economicsn you would find that the UK receives back in grants to farmers ,roads ,bridges and general infrastructure some 95% of what we pay.But then the originator of this thread is in cuccoo land .
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if we are getting most of this money back then how is the government in debt of about £3 billion pounds, and where do they spend this money, its certainly NOT on the roads, bridges and general infrastructure that you say its spent on, but seeing as each farmer get at least £1 million pounds compensation i do believe you with that, and YES i do know about the EU ecomonics, as i have studied them.
i do not live in a cuckoo land (or cuccoo as you spell it), i just see this country going to pieces.
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It's simple really.
If we were not in the EU then the European Court would have no jurisdiction here and the Law Lords would revert to being the final court of appeal.
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seeing as the house of lords can overturn ANY decision made by the law courts, its hardly worth having them in the first place.
for an example... everyone said that hunting would be banned, but the house of lords overturned the ruling.
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if any group of farmers ($1.5m per year) or Crown Court judges (pointless because of the Law Lords) wandering the streets looking for revenge would like his address, just ask.
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You are going back to your lieing phase ,You are supposed to be at some sort of youth training school,a self admited liar,mot tester, have your own garage ,and now a economist the mind boggles.You no nothing about the workings of Europe and I suggest before you raise such a complex subject you should do some basic research.If you want some evidence in your area of EU moneythere is the Berwick bypass two tyne bridges ,the new motorway through Newcastle ,The modernisation of the main hospital various inner city rejuvination projects do I need to go on.In fact in your area the amount of money taken in taxes would leave a shortfall against expenditure of some 27%.
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i have been memorising the EU policies for britain, and i know that this country doesnt get £95 million a day spent on it from the EU, for one thing you say TWO new tyne bridges but we only have one new bridge, and thats the millenium bridge and the EU only paid about £1 million of that.
plus MR Bairsto, in which country do you live, because i dont believe that anybody in britain LIKES the EU.
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No sooner has the Euro been launched than that loony federalist Romano Prodi has insisted that the 'next step must be a EU wide tax system...'
OK Blair, how long can you keep telling us that a federal superstate is not going to happen.
Count me out. Better still count yourself out at the next election.
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I refer to my above letter,the UK is the highest taxed nation in the EU ,In germany I pay 27% of my pay which includes my health care and tax but not my pension.In the UK my colleagues pay 46% which includes useless health care and a pension which will be non existant on retirement day.A basic married pension in Germany is 800 ukp a month tax free in France it is more and Italy about the same.Road tax is lower fuel tax is lower ,private health care is cheaper along with pensions.A European tax system that is fair has to be better than the chaos that reigns in the UK.
Headline yesterday the railsystem is almost ready to collapse allowing for press scarism compared to the rest of europe who are building a new Euro wide highspeed network it makes the uk look a little sick.
Just my twopennyworth.
Andy Bairsto
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Not said anything on this thread yet.
If we get what the rest of the EU take for granted, then you can stuff the pound and soverenty up your ahem.
Look at the mains coutries. Their roads are better than ours. Arrow straight and perfectly smooth [except of course tiny village ones] but their hignways put us to shame.
Their railways, France 186mph trains, Germany 186mph trains [I think], Spain 186mph trains [same as Frence TGVs]. And they are cheaper. And they dont have constast speed restrictions.
Virgin have been told to sod off about having 140mph trains on the west coast route. British rail wanted 140 running on the east coast but didnt. How many people know that in the beginning their class 91s could do 140, and designed to tilt?! What happened to that?
Its rediculous. We are shipping our hospital patients abroad as they have efficent hospitals.
Can anyone give a sensible reason to stay out?
European human rights act not included, as we would have this anyway. Which is a travest in its self.
Kev
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But taxation as a proportion of GDP is higher in germany. I'm intersted, where did you get this figure of 95% from in your previous post, i thought the figure was significantly lower.
Ben
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well if we pulled out of the EU, we would have alot more money to play with, i see that MR Bairsto is from Germany, i wonder if he has EVER driven on our roads, i am sick of driving on badly repaired roads that are covered with ice because the councils cant afford to grit the roads, one MP even said "if we were not part of the EU we would be able to lower taxes", so i say to you andy, if you think that the EU does so much for Britain, why dont you come and live here.
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The topic of the thread is whether we should remain in the European Union.
We ARE in the EU, and have been for many years.
It has done nothing for our public services.
QED
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because of the EU we have many stupid rulings, like the ones saying that people can keep rare and dangerous animals in ordinary houses, because of the EU my next door neighbour can keep a poisonous snake, and when you think that we live next to TWO schools, imagine if that went missing. anybody can keep an owl now, and what with harry potter out at the cinema i can see many owls being dumped in the future.
AND NOW WE HAVE LOST THE POUND AND OUNCE,
WE DO NOT WANT TO LOSE THE POUND AND PENNY.
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