Cheers No Do$h, was actually thinking about an Alpha 156 JTD....
Thats that off the list!
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Remember, fun is the key, but remain seated at all times or you may die. SHABBA!
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Cooking oil thinned is not a good idea on relatively modern diesels at all, as the gunk in vegetable oil eventually 'cooks' the delecate injector assemblies. Bio-diesel is not the same thing as cooking oil at all. It is far more refined and anyway is usually blended with mineral diesel. In France all disel is 5% RME (rapeseed methyl ester) and is now accepted by most if not all manufacturers as being acceptable and within the warranty conditions.
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Roly i dont know anything whatsoever about the make up of the different oils , i have done this purely as an experiment and if things break then so be it. the van is old and will probably be scrapped in the next year, it literally owes me next to nothing. but at the moment it seems to be going very well...cheers...keo.
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What's the basis for that ND? Is it in the manual or something?
I'm sure I remember reading a post from someone on AO who had been using bio-diesel.
For that matter, isn't there very little choice in some European countries?
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I'd happily try biodiesel in my '94 Passat TDI, only there's nowhere near where I live that sells it. I've searched the net to no avail. No doubt new outlets will open in the next year or two.
Cheers, Sofa Spud
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Im fortunate really...there is a farm/garage about 3 miles from me that sells it at 75p per litre...used to be 69 ppl, but the cost of the additives has just went up so he has put the price of the fuel up.So he says!
Does anyone know if a 96 P reg Vectra could take bio diesel?
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Remember, fun is the key, but remain seated at all times or you may die. SHABBA!
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I'd be surprised if you had any problems as long as the fuel concerned meets the appropriate standards - search the forum for a posts from andymc on the subject. If you're concerned then I would suggest mixing it with regular diesel, maybe starting off at 50/50 and increase it from there.
One other thing to bear in mind is that biodiesel is a lot cleaner than regular stuff so you it may dislodge any residual rubbish in your fuel tank which will get caught by your fuel filter and you may have to replace it. Therefore, starting to use biodiesel shortly before your filter is due for replacement / service anyway is a good idea.
Where are you located by the way - I'd love a biodiesel supplier near me.
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Matthew Kelly
No, not that one.
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Matthew I live near York.
I read andymc's posts a while back with great interest...they went on for months! I have no real concerns with using the stuff in my car, I just need to know what cars are able to take it before I buy my next auto trader "bargain buy"! (Just tried to jump the Passat and it didnt like it....engine turning slowly and nothing happening.)
Anyone know if a Vectra 96P can run on it?Isuzu engine I believe.
Cheers
T
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Remember, fun is the key, but remain seated at all times or you may die. SHABBA!
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Sofa Spud
Try This
My supplier isn't on here, and ther is more all the time, but if you use a local gut, make sure they hit the relevant EN standard, and check waht they drive!
ofwww.biodieselfillingstations.co.uk/index.htm
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What's the basis for that ND? Is it in the manual or something? I'm sure I remember reading a post from someone on AO who had been using bio-diesel. For that matter, isn't there very little choice in some European countries?
The manual to my beloved and a series of conversations with the customer holding facility at Alfa UK.
You can use the 5% stuff sold across mainland Europe as calling this Biodiesel is a bit like calling butter "water" on the basis that it contains some. You still wouldn't put it on your toast.
No Do$h - Alfa-driving Backroom Moderator
mailto:moderators@honestjohn.co.uk
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Wouldn't mind running my 530d off it but don't know where to get the stuff in SW London.
I think that in Germany bio-diesel is very popualr and therefore I would imagine that most German diesels could probably run on it happily. Is this correct?
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CM, Im sure someone on that andymc thread of old was running a really new BMW on it...not sure the mix of it though.
I will try and find the thread and give you the link.
T
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Remember, fun is the key, but remain seated at all times or you may die. SHABBA!
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I'm sure Andy Mc will be along in a bit to offer a fuller response than I could ever pull together.
But there are a couple of things to be wary off. There is a difference between chucking some crisp and dry into the tank and running your car on biodiesel. I'm not a chemist so I wont try to explain.
Be wary also of those selling "bio diesel" significantly cheaper than derv. It may be that the Road fuel duty has not been paid on it or corners have been cut in the manufacturing process, ie filter out the crispy bits and bung it in with some heating oil or paraffin or even diesel. Both are false economy, one will damage your pocket and your criminal record if caught, the other will damage your engine or fuel pump.
I own a 2001 Seat Leon 1.9Tdi (90) this has the TDi engine from the MkIV golf. I have ran my motor on 100% pure biodiesel for close on 60,000 miles. No adverse effects whatsoever. It takes a fraction longer to fire up in colder weather < 5 degrees C but this can be overcome my adding 20% (or more if you wish) Derv.
Leoness had the the Golf with the same engine. Interestingly Seat approve the use of biodiesel in this engine and state this in the documentation, the golf manual advised against it!
Have recently converted a colleague onto 100% biodiesel he is running a 2001 Mercedes A class, he is well pleased with the result.
Do search for posts by AndyMc in this forum. Most aspects of the subject have been covered at length and in depth before.
I appreciate some of this is not directly relevant to your question but I hope it helps.
Leon
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On the TV news and also in this week's Autocar there is mention of Bio-ethanol, made from wheat or maize, for use in petrol engines. It is widely used in South America and Scandinavia and also in USA in varying percentage blends. Engines need minor modification to valves and fuel pipes, and produce notably more power and torque.
Being a distillate, bio-ethanol production would, I imagine, use more energy than biodiesel production, which is mainly a matter of pressing and filtering.
Cheers, Sofa Spud
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MB W123 diesels are supposed to be particularly good at running on second hand chip oil. (Something (but no doubt Aprilia will put me right) to do with having injectors the size of the neck of a champagne bottle.) That will give you an elegant shed for a handful of hundreds of pounds.
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Hello chaps, sorry it took me so long - haven't had much time to visit the Backroom recently!
To be honest, although I feel flattered by seeing my name mentioned and all, the main things have been said already! Biodiesel is definitely not the same thing as vegetable oil (or even vegetable oil mixed with diesel). It's the end product of a chemical process normally involving vegetable oil, methanol and sodium hydroxide. Note that a chemical reaction must take place, it's not just a question of throwing the ingredients in a bucket and waiting for nature to take its course.
Most modern diesels should be fine with even 100% biodiesel as fuel. Fuel sold as biodiesel is often a blend of biodiesel with derv, in proportions as low as 5:95. This is sometimes referred to as B5, while a 20% blend would be termed B20, etc.
I have run B100 in a common rail engine without trouble for over 11k miles from new - however, I have heard that some of the most recent high-pressure injection systems not coping with biodiesel that has a high level of viscosity. No Do$h mentions this in relation to the GM units such as those in Alfas, Vectras and Saabs, and Aprilia posted a while back about the latest VAG engines no longer being suitable for pure biodiesel for the same reason (now that I think of it, I never got around to replying to that one - sorry Aprilia!). Fuel lines and seals etc shouldn't be affected though.
I'm still running B100 in a VW Passat and a Seat Leon, both with the 1.9 TDi engine. I've covered nearly 120k miles on biodiesel by now, about 90k just in those two cars, and it has never caused me any problems. I find that the power and economy show a very slight improvement over derv, but nothing overwhelming. There was a more noticeable improvement when I ran it in a BMW 525 TD. This runs contrary to accepted wisdom, which indicates that there should be slightly worse power and economy than when running on derv.
I would be a bit wary of any suppliers claiming to offer biodiesel at much below 80p a litre, and certainly below 70p - as I've said before, it really is too good to be true. Biodiesel should be made to a standard, and round where I live there are quite a few cowboys advertising fuel as biodiesel when I know for certain that it is very far from that - it may be smuggled fuel mixed with vegetable oil, or kerosene blended with a small amount of genuine biodiesel, etc. This sort of practice will eventually lead to engine damage. Make sure your supplier is trustworthy. Check out the list of suppliers at www.biodieselfillingstations.co.uk/
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andymc
Vroom, vroom - mmm, doughnuts ...
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andymc, what year was the 525TD? Im thinking thats the same engine as that in my Omega 2.5 TD right? I have a 95 N reg...fingers crossed I can put BD in it!
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Remember, fun is the key, but remain seated at all times or you may die. SHABBA!
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I run an Omega of veg oil mixed 50:50 with diesel, I have used higher blends but over the months, it makes a sticky deposit on the back bumper like spray mount and I need to wipe it off with white spirit.
It is a 1997 model, and I've run it from 120,000 to 175,000 miles, and it runs like a dream.
I get KTC Edible's halal-approved oil from the cash and carry, it's a blend of soyabean and rapeseed.
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tamginelli, mine was a 1996 car. It was the TD, not the TDS - the slooooowwww one! I think it was an intercooler (or lack of) that made the difference between the two engines. Mine did run quicker on biodiesel though, which was a nice surprise, and handled beautifully. Shame about the (relatively) poor fuel economy and the awkward seat height adjustment which would make the car too uncomfortable for long journeys. Nevertheless, I still remember that car with a certain amount of affection. Made a £250 profit when I sold it, too!
Now that I'm toying with the idea of a car just for cruising along at the weekends (as opposed to blatting everywhere during the week), I'm considering an old E-Class Merc, one of the 300D engines - they're supposed to be very well suited to biodiesel (and veggie oil, if you're interested). Has to be in black though!
Anyway, I'm pretty sure it was that 2.5 BMW engine that went into the Omega, but not 100% - seem to recall some mention of it on this site somewhere before, might be worth a trawl.
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andymc
Vroom, vroom - mmm, doughnuts ...
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I am using a 25% mix of KTC vegetable oil with normal mineral diesel in a 525TD. I am wary of going higher as I understand the fuel pump may fail, any advice appreciated.
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Can I use 100% in mine, wary due to rumours of fuel pump failure on 525td
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Check your manual, it will say in there whether it can or can't. Mine can't (Roomster TDi) but in addition to that its a Motability car and they won't let you use the stuff even when the Manufacturer says that you can (like the Citeon Berlingo for instance!). I think they are worried that people will use their own mix of the stuff, or some bought from non-regulated outlets.
Edited by b308 on 16/05/2010 at 09:26
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You seem switched on mate.
I'm a heavy fuel user (about 400l a month in our two cars) and feel pink fluffy dice about the consequent pollution and money in the pockets of gangster politicians like Bush and his cronies. I have been reading up on biodiesel for a couple of years, and contemplated making it at home. However, lack of a good space to do it in, the time to invest in making it, plus concerns over my three young kids around caustic soda and methanol meant that was not a possibility. Now however, a couple of guys have set up a small scale commercial facility 5 miles down the road. I went and checked them out, and they are right on the ball.
They use random waste oil. They filter out the water rather thean boiling it off. They use a post reaction sodium filter to take out the residual methanol and detritus instead of washing it with water and boiling it off again, and, on the face of it produce a high quality product, running their own new(ish) motors on it, as well as Lister generators to power the operation off their own fuel.We run our old townace on it, and that seems to have a new lease of life. Our other car is a 2000 Alfa 156 2.4l diesel. This cost a few quid, so I am naturally more nervous about using the biodiesel in it. Some info says that newer diesel engines have problems with even this type of high quality biofuel, and of course, trying to get information off of the motor trade about htis kind of thing is a waste of time. They just stick their heads in the sand and quote 5% at you. Of course the B5 standard is obligatory for them due to the french policy that ALL their diesel has to be 5 % bio diesel.
Waht I am looking for is people with real first hand experience of running modern high tech diesel engines on this type of fuel and their experiences of it. Any info you have would be gratefully received.
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No Do$h - Asking those pink fluffy dice - {last time I will edit, next time I will just delete! DD} is like asking a turkey to vote for christmas. They all quote the 5% because if they didn't accept at least that, they couldn't sell their cars in France, which insists all diesel contains at least 5% bio diesel. Bizzarely, this is related to the 2001 foot and mouth epedemic, after which all EU nations agreed they would no longer feed waste veg oil to livestock, and in oreder to encourage the take up of this resource agreed to lower the duty on "proper" biodiesel to 25p less than that on mineral diesel. The French, being French, decided that the best way to ensure take up of this waste prduct was to insist that all pumped diesel had 5% biodiesel in it. If tomorrow they say the proportion has to be 10% then your manual, and the Alfa customer holding facility would just quote that at you. In reality they are not motivated to explore the possibilities as they are wrapped up with the petrochemical indusrty. You watch what happens as more and more people get switched on to biodiesel, adn the scale of production starts increasing and moving the price down to the theoretical 60- 65p per litre. If there are any technical problems with their cars using this kind of fule they will very rapidly be eliminated. Volkswagon are already quoting 100% biodiesel as safe, and the others will soon follow. What I am triying to find out is if real technical issues exist with the JTD engine vis-a vis 100% biodiesel use or if it just politics. and inertia.
Does anybody have some real technical reasons why the JTD engine will not run for extended periods on EN14214 biodiesel at 100% concentration?
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Don't get anything with a Fiat/Alfa JTD engine as they can't run on it (more's the pity)
Why Not?
I've just filled my Alfa 156 JTD up on it.( prpoer EN12412 compliant stuff, not some old crap from someones shed) I'm on my first tankfull but it's running fine.
It should have synthetic rubber hoses and seals which the biodiesel won't break down, but getting info from Alfa is a waste of time. These big car manufacturers are so wrapped up with the petrochemical gangsters they won't come out with the truth. They all quote 5% biodiesel as O.K., but if they didn't, they wouldn't be able to sell their cars in France, where all diesel is that mix. So I am scouring the internet for people that have experience of using biodiesel in a JTD engine in greater proportions to see what they say. Yours is the only posting I have found so far, so if you have any more info, please post it here or email me @ nina@blueyonder.co.uk.
Thanks
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I was using 100% bio in my 96 Golf Estate TD last year (Stoke-On-Trent). Noticed a small drop in fuel consumption but the rear kick in the teeth was that I needed to call out the AA on 2 occasions as I had fuel starvations coming from the filter. I had changed the filter as part of a service 1000 miles after starting the Bio (once the gunk was washed out of the pipes) but then had 2 stoppages. In the end I went back onto normal diesel and haven't looked back since. Whilst the engine loved the stuff, to prevent blockages again I'd probably try it 50/50.
The bio was excellent quality, with proper filtration, and before anyone asks, no a chip didn't get caught in the tank...lol
Rich
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My supplier in Belfast is running his company X-Type on a 30% blend of the company's own fuel.
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andymc
Vroom, vroom - mmm, doughnuts ...
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