I've had a 2000 A6 quattro from new. It's only done 23K miles and has been religiously serviced throughout its life. I had been hoping to keep it for ten years. Recently it had its 50,000 mile service and came back with an unsolicited "estimate" from the Audi franchise for work apparently required as follows :
1) Replace rear tie bar bushes, worn to excess.
2) Replace secondary sump gasket due to leakage
3) Replace drivers door latch due to activating while driving
4) Replace high level brake light LEDs
5) Replace LAMBDA probes due to no activity in probes
£956 if you please.
I smell a rat. The car was MOTd only a month ago with a LAMDA reading of 0.97. There is no evidence of oil leaking nor any change in the oil level. Most of the brake light LEDs still work. The central locking control unit, I have learned, is located at the bottom of the passenger door cavity - essentially at the bottom of a water tank. It's not surprising if it short circuits so Audi should eat that one.
The other thing that's bothering me is that in addition to the service itself they charged £22 to replace the wiper blades "due to juddering." The old ones were fine. The new ones judder as well. All wiper blades judder on every Audi I've ever had and it may be a coincidence but needless replacement of wiper blades is one of the most notorious swindles perpetrated by garages on unsuspecting punters.
What it seems to amount to is that on every item that can be independently verified the garage is wrong. And on everything that can't be checked by me they're saying "trust us."
Am I being taken for a mug ?
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In the long distant days of old when I had occasion to own a Vectra, upon collecting it from my local VX dealer after a service they charged me £15+VAT to 're-adjust the windscreen washer jets' - yes £15+VAT - when as far as I was concerned, the jets were hitting the middle of the screen and prviding excellent cleaning.
Needless to say words were exchnaged and I ddin't pay the cost - but I hope you now sleep easy as you read down your 'job list' ;)
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Im not plain stupid, just a special kind of stoopid.
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If I were you I would obtain a second opinion from an independnt Audi Specialist, assuming you have one within a reasonable distance. Evan if the work is needed, indepedent labour rates are usually much lower than franchised dealers. Do you know how much of the estimate relates to labour?
If you do use an independent you have to judge how/if this would effect the resale value of you car as compared to a fully documented dealer history. Personally I think too much emphasis is placed on dealer history for most cars, however your quattro is a car that really needs expert maintenance. No harm in gettng a second opinion and if necessary return to the Audi garage to 'discuss' matters. especially if you are a regular customer who buy you next Audi from them!
Good luck!
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I agree with islandman. Find a good independent and get better work at much lower prices. I found one (originally for my Audi 100) by enquiring at a local independent VW/Audi parts/accessories shop. I wouldn't even bother returning to the dealer.
By the time you want to sell the car, a full service history isn't going to suffer that much from the lack of dealer stamps, and anyone with any nous is going to place as much, and perhaps more, value on the independent's work than on the illusory authority of the dealer's name. Better still, you'll be able to do what I did when I sold the Audi: invite the prospective purchaser to talk directly to the independent service shop about the condition and history of the car.
I hope you're giving the car regular Italian tune-ups to offset the deleterious effects of the low mileage. Regular doses of the VAG fuel additive would do no harm either (part number G 001 700 03).
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Forgive my ignorance. What is an Italian tune up ?
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Drive it hard, perhaps in 3rd or 4th, instead of 5th. This is recommended for diesels on their way to an MOT. Blows the system out by running a few miles with the rpm near the red line.
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An Italian tune-up is where you thrash your car for short durations, i.e. take it for a spin, and while doing so, take it to maximum revs before changing gear! The theory is it blow all crap out of the exhaust system etc and makes the car run better (diesels anyway), but I'm not sure of the benefits if your car is a petrol!
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Of course, there's no problem (apart from the inconvenience) taking it to an Audi dealer for it's routine servicing (probably not much more than an oil change anyway) and thenhaving any additional work carried out elsewhere. You'll still get all the stamps in the service book that way.
If you're thinking of keeping the for 10 yrs anyway, then dealer servicing is likely to have cost much more compared to independant servicing than the car would be worth (not just the difference in value, but its total value).
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As others say a second opinion is needed.
To be fair to the garage some owners would probably welcome an account of upcoming problems, particularly if thinking of changing. 12/24 month service intervals also mean judgments being made on the longevity of components.
Even if all are extant now you can defer/tolerate/prioritise. The first might be a priority (handling/safety), but even if the leak was dripping on your drive you might choose to live with it
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My experience of Audi dealers is they maintain cars to perfection. If it is broke fix it. At high cost. And if it's not broke, ensure it does break soon (not replacing timing belt tensioners at 70k miles )
Great for company cars and the rich and gullible.
For the rest of us, we can live with unimportant non - safety faults.
They will also fill your washer bottle and charge 10 minutes labour at £50-£70 per hour..
It's called "relieving punters from their money".
Or a fool and his money are quickly parted by dealers of cars with upmarket pretensions.
I agree: an independent who is competent (and honest) is a lot better deal...
madf
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Hearing this sort of thing makes me feel mad as hell, I already have many reasons not to trust garages over the years, yet they get more blatant day by day.
These supposed faults on your A6 look like utter rubbish if you ask me, but I suppose quoting you for such work serves a dual purpose, ie 1) if they can get the money for this pointless work they have made a fat profit and 2) showing how expensive it can be to have out of warranty work done on older cars stimulates the market for new/newer car sales !
I have an Audi myself, and when I take it for its first service which is a rip-off anyway considering the cost, I will tell the dealer that I do not want any work done that is outside the service shedule or warranty, to stop them from replacing 'phantom' worn parts !!
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2) showing how expensive it can be to have outof warranty work done on older cars stimulates the market for new/newer car sales !
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This is probably counter-productive - especially for someone doing such a low mileage as ubidenmark - I'm sure it puts people off from having another Audi, but then the service dept doesn't see the whole picture.
I think cars should come with a 10 yr w'tee and all you should have to pay are the routine service costs. But then how would these dealers finance their glass palaces?
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Thanks. Does anyone actually technically know if these reported faults are likely to be bogus ?
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Thanks. Does anyone actually technically know if these reported faults are likely to be bogus ?
1) Replace rear tie bar bushes, worn to excess.
Quite possibly true - these wear quickly on the Audi.
2) Replace secondary sump gasket due to leakage
You can check this.
3) Replace drivers door latch due to activating while driving
Ditto.
4) Replace high level brake light LEDs
Well, are there any that don't illuminate?
5) Replace LAMBDA probes due to no activity in probes
£10 check with four-gas analyser at your local MoT station will tell you if this is true or not.
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Lets get one thing clear from the start, I own a small independent garage.
My father always tought me this.... when testing/servicing a car, and you come accross a defect, take the rule of "would you have it on your own car". This has held me in good stead over the years, but still at times, the customer finds me at fault.
Either because i reccomended to replace a component, that still went on for several more miles. Or because I said not to replace a part, only for it to fail sooner that I thought it would.
The Audi garage will have to service/ repair the car to exact Audi standards. And if it is found that they are not servicing the cars to those standards, then Audi can withdraw there francise. Is it any wonder therefore that no component is given the benefit of the dought? (But I bet that the mecanics own cars will have oil leaks from the engine that they would recommend to have done on a customers car.)
I would have to therefore take the view of the dealer, knowing the standards that they have to work to, with the exception of the Lambda sensors.
At first I thought that I would find that Audi recommens there replacement at regular milage intervals, but my book does not show this. The garage explanation of "no activity" beggars belief.If there was not output from the sensors then the fuel economy would suffer, the engine management lamp may well be on, and the car will not run as it should. I would push them further as to there thinking on this one.
It may well be that during the service it was noted that the sensors are "lazy". If the car is used for short runns, then this is normal, but not a good thing to have.
As has been posted before, a regular run of over 60 mph for a min of 20 minutes, (in forth gear if possible) will help to clean the sensors, and the exhaust cat. Also be sure to use a good high grade fuel. (As honest John is often known to recommend....)
Regards Tony
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Is there any chance of clearing the LAMBDA sensors by giving the car a power run ?
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As in my last post, the answer to that would be yes. But ensure that, if possible, the car is kept in fourth, and a good quality fuel is used. (By "Power run" I take it you mean "Long run" and not the "Italian tune up", that I am not a great fan of. People drive far to fast down B roads as it is.
Regards Tony
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I only use Shell OPtimax, is that fuel good enough ? I'll take it for a motorway cruise in 4th and see what happens. Thanks.
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Shell Optimax? Obviously a Telegraph reader then.
I doupt that you will notice the car going any better, after all, I take it you where not complaing of a running problem when the car was serviced?
I may be a bit smoother however if the car has not had a run for some time. The voltage that is generated by the Lambda sensors is very small, (Under 1 volt) so any "sooting up" of the sensor will affect its operation.
Regards Tony
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Anyone know where the LEDs for the high level brake light can be bought ? Suspect it should be possible to make a modest saving on the £50 quoted by Audi.
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Italian tune up does not mean fast. Italian tune up means high revs for a period of time
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Well whoopee, I've worked out how to remove the high level brake light and can confirm that one segment is defunct. This is a major discovery for a mechanical caveman. If anyone can tell me where to buy a replacement I'd be mighty grateful and I can tick that box on the dealer's advisory report.
Incidentally, the Monty Python stuff with the central locking (open door, all windows come down; lock car, all windows come down; interior lights flashing when driving along etc) has mysteriously disappeared since the weather turned a bit better.... Wonder if it was just soaked ?
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Are you suffering the same problem that the passat does ? Water leaks through the pollen filter and the 'comfort' module in the passenger footwell gets wet ?
Check the fit of the pollen filter cover and that there are no cracks in it. I would lift the carpet - if the underlay is damp you are getting water in from somewhere.
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I'm not well enough up on cars to say if it's the same problem Passat have but it wouldn't surprise me as I believe they both use the same body shell.
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If anyone can tell me where to buy a replacement I'd be mighty grateful
Best place would be www.maplin.co.uk
Are you sure they're LEDs? I thought LEDs didn't blow? At least I've never seen one blow unless you put too high voltage through them (at 240v they really do "blow" :-) ). Are they not something like this www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=29584 ? Just a thought.
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Mike Farrow
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No, they're not bulbs. It's a single plastic strip of about 8 lights, one only of which has gone. Audi describe them as LEDs.
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I'm wondering if one or more of the LED's have actually failed, or there is a dry joint betwen them and the circuit board they're soldered to?
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And a dry joint would be !
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LED's have very long MTTF (mean time to failure) - of the order 10exp5 hours or more. It is most likely a poor connection on the circuit board (dry or fractured joint as said above).
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And a dry joint would be !
It's where the LED is no longer attached to the PCB (printed circuit board) although at first glance it appears to be.
Pictures tell a thousand words, so:-
www.markl.f9.co.uk/howto/electrical/main-relay/mai...m
Look at the pic at the bottom of the page for info.
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Try swapping the LEDs round to see if you still get the problem. As Aprilia states, LEDs last a very long time, and I've had one on my old computer still working constantly (albeit the wrong colour!) even though I'm running 5v instead of the max 2.x volts, so they're pretty robust.
I would reiterate DD's feeling therefore that this is a dry joint. They might be difficult to spot. Look for dull cracks in the solder joints or any movement of the pads/pins in relation to the board.
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Mike Farrow
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I finally dismantled the whole "LED" housing and, as suggested by many, they are not in fact LEDs but 12v 2.3w wedge base, capless bulbs. And they are the devil itself to find. I have tried all the UK/Euro suppliers without success. Maplin has a similar bulb but rated at 24v to 30v and I don't know enough about the subject to risk using anything other than the correctly rated bulbs. Anyone have any bright (!) ideas ?
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Have you tried Vehicle Wiring Products link suggested by mfarrow?
www.vehicle-wiring-products.co.uk/VWPweb2000/light...l
I suspect that the bulbs are actually W2.1x4.6d.
You might try asking for part number N 500 910 02 at your local dealership. It's listed as "bulb W5 1.2-12V2,3" for MY 200 A6Q sedan. Once they have a part number they may realise they sell them separately.
Failing that, all I can suggest is a call to an Audi breaker like All Audi of Bristol - no doubt they can supply 10 pre-owned bulbs for a modest fee, complete with stylish holder...
Ian.
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They look identical to the W2.1x4.6d but they are rated at 2.3W, not the 1.2w quoted for the W2.1x4.6d. I guess I could just replace them all, having a slighter dimmer high level brake light isn't the same as the end of the world.
Incidentally, I took a chance on some Maplin 24-30v bulbs. But when I plugged them in they were appreciably dimmer than the others - obviously because they're only receiving half the voltage they're expecting. A £1.96 experiment (four bulbs are gone, not one as I originally thought) but it'll still be a considerable saving on the Audi dealer quote. What a rip that is, they're asking fifty quid to replace four little bulbs costing less than 50p each ! And you can pop the whole housing out and back in 30 seconds.
If nothing else, this has been a clincher for me. I'm never getting ripped off by franchised dealers ever again. Maybe not even by manufacturers - I see the Skoda Superb and suspect it's made from the same parts bin as the new A6 and Passat at two thirds of the price.
Thanks for all the help.
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Another thing I've discovered on this interesting sojourn is that these same, elusive bulbs are used by - at least - BMW and Volvo.
Presumably no substance whatsoever in my paranoid suspicion that a cosy little cartel operates whereby the giant manufacturers stitch up relatively tiny bulb producers into exclusive supply with the unfortunate side effect that you can only get the exact spec bulbs from the franchised outlets at a mark up of n thousand percent ?
That would be seriously naughty in any language.
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I've only just this minute tried there frostbite as rswww.com seems to be my personal saviour whenever I need anything electronic. It appears though that they only do the 1.2W bulbs or lower, which is a shame.
Try www.elta.co.uk/new_page_13.htm
They might not be interested in such a small order but it's worth a shot. Otherwise they might have a shop they supply in your area. Incidently, on their home page, if you go looking through the "application lists", you will find that they say the A6 has LED third brakelights. They must have been mis-informed...
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Mike Farrow
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Perseverance pays ! The husband of a colleague of my wife runs a little garage repair business and was happy to supply the required bulbs (and a few spare) for a nominal sum.
I've been away for two weeks so I'll check my drive in the morning for any sign of oil leakage (there hasn't been any before) and of course check the dipstick.. I think the only thing this Audi dealer has achieved is to drive me right away from using a franchise. In future I'll buy from one of HJ's linked net outlets and have servicing carried out by an independent.
Congratulations to a very greedy Audi dealer.
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<< Ithink the only thing this Audi dealer has achieved is to drive me right away from using a franchise.
Whilst I sympathise with you in this particular instance I don't think its fair, or justified, to tar all franchised dealers with the same brush. There are some excellent franchised dealers.
--
L\'escargot by name, but not by nature.
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Do you work for a franchised dealer then ? I agree ubidenmark stick with the independants cost less and you get just as good a service if not better !
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Fair point, L'escargot.
However, all franchised dealers will charge much more than independents for servicing and repairs. They also generally -- but not always -- charge much more for parts that can be sourced from the likes of Euro Car Parts and GSF, parts that in many cases are absolutely identical.
My own experience with Ford, VW, Audi and MB dealers over 30 years or so has convinced me that they are to be avoided as far as possible. I can cite examples of rip-offs and incompetence involving them all; indeed, I have reported and commented on this previously on this board. I have no doubt that I get better work at much less cost from an independent, with whom I can also have sensible discussions. When I was stuck with company cars I had no choice; since owning my own cars, I've made up my mind.
Top of the franchised dealer's priority list is selling new & used cars; next is selling parts. The 15-minute repair that needn't involve a whole new part often does so because it is more profitable to replace than mend. Their palatial premises involve high overheads, which can be covered only with full-blown operating margins, hence their prices. Even if they do perform well, I doubt that the work is any better than that of a good independent charging half as much.
There are of course some very good individuals working for franchised dealers, but they are caught up in a culture that is generally not operating in the customer's interest. But that's only my opinion, of course.
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I could'nt agree more with you Roger !
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Years ago, I was a mechanic on The famous English Electric Lightning, a Mach 2 Interceptor and after that, other multi-million pound fighters and more.
Anyone with similar experience in this field will know of two sayings that they will have heard on an almost weekly basis about the state of the hardware concerned and will know that these two are equally applicable to cars.
There is no such thing as a fully serviceable aircraft...or car.
And
It will do a trip!
The Audi dealer (along with any other sensible one) is attempting to make money, by, as someone else has said, maintaining this car to perfection. That's fair enough but if you explain to them that you would rather know how serious the sump gasket leak is and how long it will go before replacement is ESSENTIAL and request similar details of all other recommended repairs it would put you in a much better position to give them further business.
If this is unacceptable to them then find a servicing agent who is a little more realistic.
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If you want to get ahead - get a Van!
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Ah...The Lightning. There can be few plane that were operational AND leading edge so long. Lump in throat time
Relevant to the gasket query really, as I heard they used to seep fuel. I recall the old saying "What do you call a lightning that did not leak"......."empty"
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Moving to discussion later today
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The sequel.
The arresting thought of the engine suddenly being completely drained of handy lubricant persuaded me to book the car into a independent Audi specialist to have the "leak at secondary sump gasket" gasket diagnosed by the Audi franchise rectified. I know it was slightly improbable but when you know next to nothing about the mechanics of cars it doesn't put you in holiday cruise mind set. It's this mechanical ignorance which also tempts at least one Audi franchise to assume you also lack the power of reason, which is quite a different thing.
It's a considerable inconvenience to get work done on the car actually because I work away from home - as the car's mileage suggests - so it involves all kinds of hassle with keys and collection and delivery and remote payment.
Having obtained a quote from the independent of £136 for the work, compared to £245 from the franchise mob, The independents picked the car up one day and called me the next. Oil leak ? What oil leak is that then ? We've cleaned up the area, the secondary sump gasket is as tight as a duck's what'sit. There might be a weep somewhere behind the timing cover at the rate of approximately one drop every second blue moon but it's nothing to keep you off your breakfast. And the timing belt looks fine too so sorry we can't charge you £500 to change that either.
I'm reminded that for all the slightly absurd, spacey, glass roof structures, dolly birds in suits and the fashion anoraks on display an Audi dealer is just a car selling and repairing shop, arguably just another predator on the unwary motoring consumer. It's to the absolute credit of the independent that they had the integrity to resist a quick buck or several. If they'd handed me the car back with a bill for £136 and you car's ready sir I'd have been none the wiser and paid up like a lady.
So that's my conversion complete. No more Audi franchise again. You can only lose somebody's trust once. The empowerment of the 'net - and this site in particular - now gives me, an engineering ignoramus, enough confidence to venture forth into the dangerous motoring shark pool without a dealer's concrete "life ring" to cling on to. I might even break a 25 year tie with German cars - 5 BMWs, 3 Audis straight - and try a Honda Accord. Leather, air, cruise, auto, sat nav and an unburstable motor for £16k at motorpoint.co.uk. Not quite as plausibly evangelical but just half the price of the Deutchers and maybe the Japanese boys won't steal from you.
I'd love to mention the Audi dealership involved but I won't at the moment. I have the documentary evidence though. One unsolicited statement from them, after I'd gently queried their "advice", might sum it up: "We're not in the business of inventing work to be done." I had never suggested they were....
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Thanks for the follow up and glad this site, amongst others, has been of help to you.
No Do$h - Alfa-driving Backroom Moderator
mailto:moderators@honestjohn.co.uk
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