2) FSH although it has its flaws, helps get a feel for how a car has been looked after. It obviously shouldn't be used in isolation when deciding on a car.
Like the man says the stamp is only as good as what it is stamping and should form one part of the decission to buy or not to buy. When I by a car I tend to contact the last owner and delaer/garage which has 'stamped' the book to ask about the history.
Most times I've found the people and companies helpful and open. And although not fool prrof in itsels, enquiries can help to put to rest, or raise, any doubts you might have on that 'bargain'.
It's like looking for obvious signs of 'clocking' - look for everything and see what emerges. One item on it's own is not absolute proof.
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Got caught this way once. Reported the guy to Inland Revenue, Customs & Excise and Trading Standards.
Quote from Trading Standards, 'John Bull printing kits are cheap'.
Agree, do the deal, pay a deposit in return for the keys and the log book, to return with full balance in cash in a few days, then call the people listed in the stamp book to confirm details. Service Departments are usually surprisingly helpful.
As to FSH, motorway miles, female owner, lets not go there again...
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" 1) It is obviously being marketed as a create your own history."
Yes, I realize that and see no problem with it. In fact I dare say its a good thing as maybe it will stop people relying so heavily on a book full of stamps that may or may not mean anything at all.
I am sure the legal eagles could shed light on it being possibly illegal as its a form of misrepresentation etc, but I don't think along those lines.
If I draw a pretty looking certificate with fancy coloured pencils which states that my car has always been serviced and looked after with loving care and show it to a prospective buyer who is then willing to pay more for my car because of that pretty certificate then I certainly won't lose any sleep after taking that extra money off them.
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Hmmmmm...interesting line of reasoning.
How would you feel if you were treated this way by someone?
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I wouldn't fall for that, just like I don't fall for the whole "FSH" bit. I didn't even open the service book when I was looking at the car I last bought. "Buy on condition", meaning the condition of the car, not it's service booklet.
Further proof of the redundancy of car documents (other than the V5)is the MOT on the car when I bought it. It was only 1 week old, and the seller said it passed after having to change only a suspension bushing. After having driven the car for less than 2,000 miles I got a puncture and had to change a tyre. I was shocked at how low the brake pads were and there was no way it could have passed an MOT 2,000 or even 4,000 miles ago.
That "valid MOT" was worthless when it came to proving or at the very least supporting the car's roadworthiness, but I only had myself to blame for not checking the car further after taking possesion (and thinking that brake pad sensors would actually work and alert me to a low pad condition).
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SFAIK, the MoT test doesn't require examination of the amount of friction material left on the pads, which would probably require the wheels to be removed, but only a test of the braking effect on the day. Two of the last 3 cars I've owned had the brake pad sensors cables cut (cut, not broken), one of those I think during a main dealers service for guarantee purposes. I think the sensors are unreliable.
"I wouldn't fall for that...."
"If I draw a pretty looking certificate...........which states that my car has always been serviced.........then I certainly won't lose any sleep after taking that extra money off them."
That's a matter of personal integrity and honesty. Whilst you may feel that you know a lot about cars and won't get caught out, there must be other areas in which you are less confident and where you are obliged to put your trust in knowledgeable professionals whom you have paid. You wouldn't be amused if you were to find that they had used their expertise to mislead and cheat you, would you?
For example, how about a pension? How would you feel if you had worked for 10 or 20 years and then found that some weaselly accountant had embezzelled most of your pension contributions and then got off with a suspended sentence? Or, how about food? How would it feel if you learnt that chicken burgers your family had eaten were made from suspected condemned meat, sent for dog food and chemically treated to remove the mould? What would you do if your child suffered salmonella food poisoning, later causing failure of both kidneys?
It happens. Yes, in every field of human endeavour there are shifty scum-bags with shifty eyes and their stupid grins trying to rip people off.
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" 1) It is obviously being marketed as a create your own history." Yes, I realize that and see no problem with it. In fact I dare say its a good thing as maybe it will stop people relying so heavily on a book full of stamps that may or may not mean anything at all.
I'm sorry, but that's a terrible point of view. This amounts to someone lying about the history of their car, and you don't see it's wrong?
It's a good thing if people get ripped off, coz they'll learn a lesson from it? What about people getting burgled? Is that a good thing, coz they'll learn to fit better security to their houses?
The people who would do such things are scum - life shouldn't be about 'learning to avoid them'. Attempts should be made to sort the problem, not learn to avoid it.
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A similar thing happens on e-bay where people sell VIN plates from pre-1973 cars. A little note at the bottom of the listing says 'can supply V5 to match'.
Basically they've figured out that when breaking a pre-1973 car there is a certain value in the car's identity.
Someone owning a late 70s example of the same car will happily pay £50 or so for a pre-1973 VIN plate and V5. They simply notify the DVLA that they've scrapped their own car, then swap the VIN plates over and register their 'purchase' of the car that was being broken. Get some new plates made up and hey presto, no road tax.
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If you had a FSH with bills, you could have looked at it to see when the brakes were last checked and or replaced. If they had no work done, this might have been a pointer that they needed doing.
What checks do you do, as you missed the brake sensor light not working also?
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>>If you had a FSH with bills, you could have looked at it to see when the brakes were last checked and or replaced. If they had no work done, this might have been a pointer that they needed doing.
With what some dealers get up to now.and in years gone by.FSH is really a total waste of space.One comment I always have made.Even to those that I know..I dont trust em never will..I also have never bought a car on strenght of FSH!.
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Steve
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Of the last 5 cars I have bought / traded in, I have never once been asked if it had a FSH at time of agreeing a trade in price.
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Well I respect your point of view, but I couldn't disagree more.
1) I have always been asked if a car I am trading in has a SH. Somes dealers have even chipped me if it is not all manufacturer done.
2) When I buy a car, I take a number of things into account FSH being one. What the owner is like, the area it is coming from, is the car clean, how many owners, overall car condition...all these things go into the mix of my buying decision.
I would not say a FSH is the beginning and end of whether a car is good or not, but I cannot see that it can be dismissed as an irrelevant factor either.
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So you think that people should rely on service book stamps, pay more for a car with a full service history and somehow feel more comfortable with the fact that they have a fully stamped service book?. How is that beneficial to the car buyer/owner?.
I am not supporting the dishonesty of suggesting that your car has a full dealer stamped service history. My analogy of creating a fancy, but obviously meaningless certificate was to prove the point that people will pay more for something that is inherently useless, such as a stamped service book.
My car is fully serviced and lovingly cared for, there is no lie or con in that, but unless someone has a book with a rubber stamp in it to give them a warm fuzzy feeling they look further afield for a car with a fully stamped book, but may not have been as well serviced or cared for as my car is. If they fall for that, then thats their tough luck.
Lots of "blank books" on ebay should be a wake up call for car buyers out there who still place so much weight on stamped service books.
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A service history needs to be supported by invoices. True they can also be forged, but it's more difficult and less likely. I should magine though that anyone tendering a forged invoice would be guilty of uttering a forged instrument with intent to deceive, at the very least. That makes it a BiB job.
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As already mentioned a FSH supported by the relevant invoices is a good way of assisting you in the decision to buy a vehicle, an HPI check is essential though. Another good idea is to get the previous owner details from the log book & give them a call. If anything sounds a bit dodgy then simply walk away, lots of cars out there that are genuine
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I agree that people should not rely on a FSH, but your first post claims that you see nothing wrong with people forging them.
There's a great difference between thinking people should be wary of that, and thinking it's perfectly acceptable for someone to do it.
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" Unless the Ford stamp was stolen or forged, whats the problem?."
That was the first line of my first post. I thought it was clear from that line that I did not condone forged stamps?. Its a service book with stamps in it, thats all thats being sold, and no I do not see anything wrong with selling such an item. If more people realize how easy a "full service history" is to come by, maybe they will stop paying premiums for a car with one.
Sorry, I can't understand what is wrong with that line of thinking.
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" Unless the Ford stamp was stolen or forged, whats the
Its a service book with stamps in it, thats all thats being sold,
But surely the only possible use for that is to forge a service history? What difference does it make how the book was stamped? They're still using it to claim something which isn't true, in order to get more money out of a victim.
However much you feel it's the victims fault for falling for it, surely that does not result in condoning the actions of the scammer?
If I leave my front door open all day while I'm at work, it's my fault if I get robbed. Doesn't mean the person doing the robbing isn't low-life scum who should be locked up.
I'm not sure whether it is actually your opinion, but what appears to be coming across is that ripping people off is perfectly fine in your book - it's their own fault for being gullible.
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I would be a very wary of this seller. He has been a member of e bay for 15 months and this is the first item he has ever sold so he has no "Feedback" and the item is unusual to say the least! Mind you, if there is a problem it isn't going to ruin you, at the asking price, is it?
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If you do something silly like leaving your front door open then yes its your own fault. If you do something silly like paying more for a car because it has a book full of stamps then yes its your own fault.
I don't think its perfectly fine to rip people off, but if people leave themselves open for such scams then yes they should bear some if not all of the blame. There is a reason why those "Nigerian" scams are so commonplace, and no its not because Nigeria is full of scammers, its because people don't use common sense and leave themselves open for a swindle. A bit of natural selection I say, if you can't keep hold of your money sensibly, might as well hand it over to someone else.
I trust no-one is going to somehow deduce that I support Nigerian scammers or in any way feel that what they do is justified, but please do understand that I have no sympathy for those who get taken by them...or burgled if they leave their front doors open...or buy a rubbish car because it had a book full of stamps.
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If you do something silly like leaving your front door open then yes its your own fault. If you do something silly like paying more for a car because it has a book full of stamps then yes its your own fault. I don't think its perfectly fine to rip people off, but if people leave themselves open for such scams then yes they should bear some if not all of the blame.
Sorry to draw this out, but the impression you gave higher up was that you DID think it was perfectly fine to rip people off, if they're asking for it.
You don't see a problem with selling that service book, for the purposes of falisfying a service history? Then you think it's fine to do so. What's the difference?
The point is that I'm agreeing with you that people may be 'asking for it', but I completely disagree that this means it's OK to go and swindle them.
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>> If you do something silly like leaving your front door >> open then yes its your own fault. If you do >> something silly like paying more for a car because it has >> a book full of stamps then yes its your own fault. >> >> I don't think its perfectly fine to rip people off, >> but if people leave themselves open for such scams then yes >> they should bear some if not all of the blame.
Where, exactly, do you stop?
You bought a car for too much by relying on forged stamps to show an FSH? Tough - you should have checked with the issuing garage.
Your bag was nicked from your hallway? Tough, you should have locked your front door.
Your car was nicked? Tough, you shouldn't park in places like that.
You were mugged and spent a week in hospital? Tough - you really ought to stay indoors these days.
Behaviour is either moral or immoral. We can debate the precise location of the line, but forging an FSH in order to persuade a naive punter to part with more cash is never going to be moral. And suffering as a result of another's immorality is not your fault.
Yes, I'll take common sense precautions to limit my risk. But don't suggest that in doing so, other's immorality becomes my fault.
Here endeth....
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Behaviour is either moral or immoral. We can debate the precise location of the line, but forging an FSH in order to persuade a naive punter to part with more cash is never going to be moral. And suffering as a result of another's immorality is not your fault.
Thanks Patently, I was struggling to put my thoughts down here, and this paragraph describes them perfectly.
You can bemoan the gullibility of the buyer, but that doesn't change the innate wrongness of what the seller is doing. By supplying something specifically for that purpose, this seller is just as wrong.
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"If you do something silly like leaving your front door open then yes its your own fault."
No Trancer. It is your fault for leaving the door open, but a burglary is the fault of the opportunist thief who walks in and helps themselves.
afm
(from a part of the world where, in my memory, people DID usually leave their front doors open)
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Whichever way you look at it, its dishonest.
It appears that dishonesty is OK as long as you are not adversely affected by it, at least according to some of the people posting on here!
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