Just booked my Seat Toledo TDi in for its 20,000 service with the dealer. Was informed when booking in that it "requires" a brake fluid change at 2 years old, and did sir want this doing at the same time as the service (the car will be 2 years old in June). Price quoted is £41 (for the fluid change, that is!).
Just wondering what your opinions were on this - is it regarded as essential in terms of maintaining warranty or is it optional? When do others change their brake fluid?
Thanks
John
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I've just changed mine on the back brake of the bike after two years. I did this because I had some fluid left after changing the front the other week, original stuff put in over five years ago in Japan!
I try to be conciencious with two year intervals in the cars, but not always. I suspect there are many vehicles running round out there with brake fluid that is ten years old or more. Be interesting to see what everyone else does.
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My understanding is that a 2-year interval is about right. Brake fluid has a fairly strong tendency to absorb moisture but I'm not sure whether the adverse result of this is corrosion, or reduced effectiveness, or both.
Oz (as was)
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BMW does it. Reason given by the dealer was that braking systems are so complex now that its essential. Could also lead to warranty
issues in the event of the faliure of a brake component.
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Moisture in the braking system has an adverse effect because it lowers the boiling point of the fluid. If it boils, you get air in the system and reduced braking efficiency.
Disc brakes get incredibly hot; you must have seen the video of the ones on the Merc-Maclaren glowing red hot, and I gave myself a nasty burn t'other day on the one on my mountain bike.
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The change interval on my Xantia is 36k miles. I always change it at the recommended interval, it does brakes, steering and suspension. On a more "normal" setup, there is more tendancy for the fluid to absorb moisture in the system than in a sealed container because there is a vent in the master cylinder.
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Hmmm i'm not so sure. Fiends have often asked me about this. All i say is in over 20 years of motoring i've never had brake fluid changed and never noticed any deteriation. Or any problem.
But for piece of mind and the sake of 40 quid, get it done.
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I agree with you, Imagos, it was never high on my agenda with "normal" hydraulic systems, and I never had a problem. The Citroen system is a bit different and potentially a lot more expensive, thats why I do it. as you say, for the cost, I would have it done.
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Is this a relatively new idea that changing brake fluid should be done every 2 years? When one of our two Ford vehicles went in for it's second year service I was told that the brake fluid change was not necessary until 3 years, and then when the other car went in for it's 2 year service (at a different dealership) we were told that it was now *recommended* practice to change the fluid every 2 years; even some dealerships don't seem to know what they are meant to be doing. It seems to me an unnecessary expense, I can't understand any problem with 3 year changes; unless brake fluid has been watered down to such an extent that it only remains effective for 2 years? Might as well get it done considering your warranty will otherwise most likely be void.
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I understand that a small sample of the brake fluid can be tested for moisture content and the results then point to change or retain.
How would you confirm that a complete fluid change has been done?
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The change interval on my Xantia is 36k miles. I always change it at the recommended interval, it does brakes, steering and suspension. On a more "normal" setup, there is more tendancy for the fluid to absorb moisture in the system than in a sealed container because there is a vent in the master cylinder.
Why would it be based on mileage?
Brake fluid is hydroscopic and absorbs moisture over a period of time. 36k miles could be covered in a few months or take 10 + years.
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Xantia's are a different kettle of fish altogether.
They don't use conventional DOT brake fluid - they use LHM+ which is a thin mineral oil and is nothing like brake fluid, and in any case the reccomended change interval is 36k or 3 years, whichever comes first.
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When my car is serviced, I am always told the boiling point of the brake fluid. If the B.P. is below 200C, it is recommended to change it.
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>>is it regarded as essential in terms of maintaining warranty or is it optional?
If it's mentioned in the service guide/handbook then I would say that it may harm your warranty if ignored, but you dealer makes it sound as if it is an option and not necessarily a 'must do' operation.
The brake fluid in my Polo was over 4 years old when it got changed last year. It was a job which I though I must get done at the next service, but always forgot about. The garage I use has your services logged, so they know what?s due and when, but I still requested to have it done just in case they had forgotten. The brakes were nicer to use after the change, but as it cost so little to have done, i didn't see the point in neglecting it, I will probably have it changed every 2 years (as per manufactures guidelines).
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Thanks for your comments everyone. Very interesting. My query arises from the fact the fluid has never been changed so early on my last 2 cars (fiat puntos). Checking out my manual it does indeed state brake fluid change service at 24 months, I guess as it's going in for its service and only 3 months off 2 years old, I might as well get it done now, for warranty's sake if nothing else.
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There's a saying about crash helmets: if you have a $10 head then a $10 helmet is just fine.
This seems to be the same principle: the question of whether £41 is justified is rather depends on whether you regard the brakes as an important part of your car or not. :-)
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Various factors at work here.
Firstly brake fluid is hydroscopic and once it absorbs water to any great extent the water will boil. This is made worse by thin but legal pads, or a long down hill run. I've experienced fluid boil and it isn't pleasant.
Secondly older cars would generally have work done on the brake systems on a yearly or so basis so they had fluid changed on a regular timescale anyway. Also cars were then relatively lighter and slower, without ABS pumps etc.
Thirdly modern cars have very expensive ABS pumps, calipers etc. This moisture will corrode & seize parts of the braking system. ABS pumps cost around £ 1,000! now still think £ 41 for a fluid change is not needed.
Jim
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I recently changed the seals all round on my brakes. The horrible sediment in the calipers and pipes made me decide to do regular fluid changes, looked like rust in suspension. It doesn't need much fluid pumped through each bleed nipple to get to clean stuff.
Martin
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All toyota's now have a 2 year brake fluid change as part of the servicing schedule. Deviate from this and warranty goes out of the window.
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Cars (ok landrovers) used for wading, a one year change is recommended (just in case the seals havn't kept everything out.
Price depends on labour rate but ought to be quick and easy for a dealer. Pressure filler, car in air wheels off - piece of cake. Given that a good service requires them to take the wheels off and get it in the air, the extra should be cheap.
£41 may seem expensive, but boiling brake fluid leads to hitting things. For most people, more expensive.
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Dont forget. main dealer charges for manufacturers time limit on doing the job..Not actual time taken..Difference is bonus for fitter.mind you Tech (should have said that before. they get annoyed when called fitters)But as mentioned.If brake fluid not changed at correct time/mileage.Will most likely be damaging and costly..
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Steve
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Not disagreeing with anything said but it does puzzle me how the absorbed moisture gets as far as the wheel cylinders.
This moisture can only get in is via the fluid reservoir and the only part of it which reaches high temperatures is adjacent to the disks.
Does this same moisture travel along the brake pipes??
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it does puzzle me how the absorbed moisture gets as far as the wheel cylinders.
Ingress via/around the seals on the wheel cylinders.
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it does puzzle me how the absorbed moisture gets as far as the wheel cylinders.
Diffusion.
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I have struggled in the past changing whel cylinders where the internal pistons were corroded and disk calipers where the bleed screws were rusted solid, calipers corroded and slides almost solid with rust.
I chaneg all brake fluids at 2 years and check all pipes/slides for corrosion and treat accordingly.
No maintenance of braking system is imo just plain stoooopid. And as cars get older a false economy. With modern complex systems and finer tolerances, more maintenance is required rather than less..
Driving is risky enough: I want to limit my risks . Brakes which can fail on me is something I can do without.
madf
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It's always been recommended that brake fluid is changed regularly, but most manufacturers seem to be making the point with more insistence these days. One key reason may be that the moisture the brake fluid picks up can start to corrode components like ABS units, and they are far from cheap to replace! So, I'd go for it, especially as the car's still in warranty.
JS
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Had my gran's 51 reg Focus in for service the other day, the fluid has never been changed in it, and the boiling point had dropped to something like 130 degrees IIRC.
Anyway, as I worked at the dealership where I got it serviced I got the fluid changed for £25. Money well spent I should imagine, plus if she had said no, she would have had to visit the garage herself to sign a disclaimer, absolving the garage of responsibility if the brakes failed because of the dodgy fluid.
Blue
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I was going to mention "hygroscopic" myself but our guru HJ beat me to it.
Are we talking the old DOT 3 or 4 fluid? Definitely hygroscopic, does degrade and requires replacement on a regular basis. I was always taught if you open a can of them and don't use it all you should dispose of the remainder. DOT 5 however is silicone-based I believe and has longer life, although I only know this from motorbike experience.
Might be worth RTFM.
But it is clearly stating the obvious to get the stuff changed if in doubt. Brakes and tyres I treat with almost religious devotion myself.
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My limited understanding is that it knackers the ABS components if left more than two or three years unchanged.
I'm sure that HJ has made reference to this in his Saturday column in the Telegraph at some time.
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Forgot to add that I've just had my three year old Passat done at a cost of £50ish.
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DOT 5 however is silicone-based I believe and has longer life, although I only know this from motorbike experience.
I may be wrong. but I dont think it can be used on cars.Instead of absorbing the moisture.it forms into droplets which lay in the lowest point of system.Dot4 is more hygroscopic than dot3.Which is the reason why fluid change is needed more often.Anyone correct if wrong?...
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Steve
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Dot 5 silicon fluid can be used on cars - ive just done a fluid change on a 1960's MGA (leaking master cylinder) You can't mix it with Hygroscopic earlier Dot 4 fluid however. Silicone fluid does not absorb water, neither does it damage paintwork if spilt. I understand however that it is not as good at transmitting braking force to the calipers- and it costs a lot more.
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£41 sounds expensive to me. I was charged £27 in April last year by a Ford main dealer in Doncaster.
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L\'escargot by name, but not by nature.
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All silicone fluid is Dot 5 but Dot 5 can be either standard synthetic or Silicone. Not all cars can run Dot 5, the ALfa 164 for one suffers seals swelling if run on it.
Silicone doesn't absorb water but if introduced water tends to collect and can still boil. The main reason its used is because it doesn't damage paintwork.
Also all fluids are inter mixable as its part of the spec, however the advantages of Silicone are removed once you mix it.
Jim
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The longer you put off a brake fluid change the more seized the bleed nipples become. then, if they shear off you have the expense of new brake cylinders os callipers.
I had a boil up of brake fluid in my 13 year old Triumph Herald (brake fluid nver changed as far as I know). Coming down off a Welsh mountain with no brakes has left me a fanatic re brake fluid changes.
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I have a 10 yr old Primera and, as far as I know, the brake fluid has never been changed.
And, you know what ? In the past 3 years the brakes have been getting worse and worse. I know the pads & disks are all OK and and I saw in the local dealer that the 'Level 3' service consists of a brake fluid change ever 2 or 3 years.
Anyway, this Primeras' days are numbered, but it's replacement shall have its' brake fluid changed.
£41 doesn't seem a lot really. I guess the chances of the bleed nipples shearing off on new cars are pretty slim compared with trying to do it on my old Primera......
Stu
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Frequent brake fluid changes are not a recent thing.
Mercedes have long recommended an annual fluid change and twenty years ago when I was 'spannering' we always recommended a two-yearly change.
I always found that (somehow or other) there was a little air in the system and so most owners found the pedal feel was better after a change. Don't forget the hydraulic clutch too - many feel a bit better after a bleeding through with new fluid.
Enough DOT 4 fluid to do a complete change will only cost about £5 from a factor. Buy a Gunsons Ezibleed or a MityVac to do the bleeding work for you (£20-30) and you're all set for years to come!
Use a bit of Plus-Gas around the bleed nipples and give them a gentle downward tap with a small hammer to unsieze them. Then use a snug-fitting hex spanner or socket to crack them open. Don't overtighten when you've finished. Put a big blob of grease around the thread to keep things free for two years' time...
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The trauma of sorting siezed caliper pistons made me resolve to do frequent brake fluid changes.
Gengis
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Aprilia is correct (again:-)
A Gunsons Easibleed is worth every penny. Had mine 15 years - makes bleeding easy compared to old manual method.
madf
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I had my brake fluid changed on Friday after leaving the fluid in for 30 months. Now the pedal feels a lot better and I feel a lot more confident that I will actually stop the car in time.
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Ford dealers insist on changing the brake fluid every 3 years max. Last year they changed the fluid of my Y-reg Ka because the boiling point has gone down below the recommended limit.
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Its not what you drive, its how you drive it! :-)
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VW dealers recommend bi-ennial changes too.
Just had mine done, for the second time, on our four year old Skoda Fabia tdi (VW & Skoda same franchise & workshops in Marbella). Cost was 35,28 Euros (about £24) Mind you their hourly labour rate is fairly high for here at 36,00 Euros, (about £24.50)It was cheaper when they had a dedicated Skoda workshop!
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Roger. (Costa del Sol, España)
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