After a fair amount of thought and research I've narrowed the choice of my next car down to either a late 306 hdi estate or a 2001 toyota avensis 1.8vvti.
I've got £5000 to spend and have found good examples of each (cargiant for the avensis)
However the problem I've come up against are two points of view which seem equally valid. They are:
1. Yes, Toyotas are extremely reliable but the spares are very expensive and more complicated to fix.
2. Peugeots are cheaper to service with cheaper spare costs and with lots of people saying they are reliable.
The reliability statistics shows that Toyota beats Peugeot but with a 4 year old car with 70-80k miles, simply from a total running cost, which makes more sense?
The Avensis seems well built if a little boring, the 306 not so well built and slightly interesting.
Help!
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If reliability is the main factor then you'd have to go with the Toyota, looking at the last Top Gear survey results the bottom 10 cars in the survey were filled with Citroens, renaults & peugeots.
Having said that the 306 will be a more rewarding drive - depends on your priorities really
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I would say Toyota have the mechanical reliabilty.
Get yourself over to the toyota owners club (www.toyotaownersclub.com) and register for the forum-it has an Avensis section and lots of info.
A tip-the 1.8 is giving a few 'issues' as they get older. The 2.0 doesn't suffer apparently.........
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So when a jap car goes wrong they are "issues" are they. Well well well.
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It must be infuriating for someone to start a thread asking for advice on a choice between cars A and B, and inevitably someone else comes along and suggests car C (and sometimes D to Z as well). This is something of a Backroom speciality - so here goes.
You might find it helpful to decide whether you want diesel or petrol - if you go for diesel the Avensis 2-litre engine is qute lively. A Golf TDI would satisfy you on both counts (I stil think reports of VW unreliability are exaggerated, and it was the petrol 1.8T engines that had the faulty coil) - but they hold their value and £5000 would get you an older model than the equivalent 306 or Avensis.
So have a look at an Octavia TDI - hatch or estate as you prefer - and you might find it the best compromise between your very logical priorities. (Although, as you have done some research, you may have dicsounted this for other reasons.)
Good luck - and do let us know what you choose.
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He said he's thinking about a Peugeot HDI estate.
Mechanically, my Xsara has now covered 74000 miles with not the slightest problem with the engine. (touch wood.) It's the old 1.9TD XUD which has loads of grunt and performs flawlessly.
I think all French cars have minor problems which shunts them to the bottom of these listings. Mine's developed an irritating squeak when moving the gear lever across of reverse to first (something needs oiling!) and the central locking on the boot has broken. (actually broken, I can hear it rattling.) Both these will be fixed under the extended warranty I bought with the car.
I think you'll enjoy a diesel more, and the French engines are famed for reliability, even if the rest of the car might start falling apart...
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Which do you like driving the best?
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>(I stil think reports of VW unreliability are exaggerated
Interesting that the Germans themselves are complaining about them !
As regards Toyota, the wife runs a company Corolla which is one of a fleet of about 30.
Most of the girls who drive them complain that the seat gives them back ache.
The gearbox has lost its Synchro on Second and is a fairly grim gear change in general.
The local dealer is disorganised and generally appalling!
Just the later would put me off a Toyota.....
But then again I had negative experiences of a Scooby Legacy which put me off them, despite it being top of the reliability polls!
Jim
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For sheer reliability I think you would have to say Toyota. But that's not to say you wouldn't have an enjoyable experience with the Pug. My neighbour has a 306 HDi estate and is very pleased with it. It's a 2001 Y reg to replace an extremely reliable 405 diesel he had.
Peugeot have been building diesels for years and years. The HDi is a lovely unit, responsive and economical. I've not heard of any particular problems with the engine.
If you fully check out all the electrical toys on the Pug before you part with your hard earned, I can't see you would go far wrong.
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I would ask you the following question?
Do you maintain your car carefully with a well chosen competent garage at the manufacturer's schedule.
If yes: buy the Pug. More fun to drive.
If no, then the Pug will go wrong and the more you neglect it over the years the worse it will get.. The Toyota is so well deisgned it shoudl last longer.
madf
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Pug.
No Do$h - Alfa-driving Backroom Moderator
mailto:moderators@honestjohn.co.uk
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We had a 2001 Avensis D4D as a pool car here, and I went home in it one night. Only car I have backed off in on my normal route home beacause it felt so unsettled on the windy stuff - scarily so. The pug on the other hand will just beg you to throw it into corners... :-))
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RichardW
Is it illogical? It must be Citroen....
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French flair ........... from Coventry?
For the money I would probably look for an Astra ideally a 1.8, gutsy free reving well equipped in CD spec not glamourous though good to drive.
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French flair ........... from Coventry?
Just because they are manufactured in Coventry doesn't necessarily mean that they are designed in Coventry. (Not that there is anything wrong with Coventry, far from it. I lived there for about 14 years, 10 of which were spent working for Rootes Group, later known as Chrysler UK Limited, now known as Peugeot Citroen Automobiles UK Limited).
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L\'escargot by name, but not by nature.
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>> French flair ........... from Coventry? >> Just because they are manufactured in Coventry doesn't necessarily mean that they are designed in Coventry. (Not that there is anything wrong with Coventry, far from it. I lived there for about 14 years, 10 of which were spent working for Rootes Group, later known as Chrysler UK Limited, now known as Peugeot Citroen Automobiles UK Limited).
Sorry, only joking. My Dad had a Chrysler Alpine, went well for 1442cc.
Regards.
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I can't remember the exact quote but late last year at something like their AGM one of the head guys at VW came out with a quote something along the lines of
"Toyota wish to have the perceived build quality of a VW, we here at VW wish to have the actual build quality of a Toyota"
I'm amzed by someone actually having troubles with the handling, i'm a enthusiatic driver (also have a Pug 205 as my own personal car) and can honestly say i've never really had a problem with a corolla or an avensis's handling. Only one i've backed off in is a Yaris 1.0 which don't like being thrown through corners at 60mph.
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Don't Toyota build Yaris in France now?
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Yes some of the Yaris are made in France and if you believe what the technicians say the french built ones aren't as good as the Jap built ones.
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base yaris has thinner tyres than the others, thats the only issue, if you put the wider wheels on you'll find they are great handlers
corollas in my experience benefit from better tyres than they come with as standard, and this transforms them
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"if you believe what the technicians say the french built ones aren't as good as the Jap built ones"
Certainly true of Yamaha pianos (i.e. Jap built better than UK).
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Re. Mk1 Avensis handling - you have to treat it like a barge, not a sportscar. It does "barge" things well (refinement, motorways, straightline acceleration). It's Ok in twisty stuff but no more - if you want a handler, go for the Pug, a Mondeo, a Focu or a Primera (not the latest model).
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These are two different cars - the Avensis is bigger and petrol-engined. You're not quite comparing like with like. Do you need the extra width of the back seat in the Avensis? Do you cover a great mileage and need the fuel economy of the 306 HDI ?
The fact that you're considering the Avensis and highlighting its reputation for reliability and build quality makes me suspect that you are concerned about reliability. But you must ask yourself just how big your concern is - is it enough to overshadow other factors? In the end, the reliability of the 306 will probably prove to be "fair enough". Do you want to take what might seem like a slight gamble, in order to experience enjoying 306 'handling fun' on each journey, or do you want to play safe and take comfort that the Avensis never risks letting you down, even though you're niggled evermore that you're missing out on more enjoyment?
When you have some excess money, do you like to spend it? Or like to see a bigger figure in your savings account?
Or maybe you're not that bothered about the last ounce of handling anyway, in which case the Avensis couldn't be called a bad decision.
Supposedly, if you want a good balance between reliability and servicing costs (= the overall running costs you were concerned with), Ford are a good bet. And the Focus handles well too. Considered one of those?
Not that I can ever make my own mind up...
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thanks for your thoughts.
went for a test drive in the two this afternoon and without a doubt preferred the 306. having said that if i had to do 1000 miles in a straight line, and not worry about the fuel bill, would probably go for the avensis.
after an above suggestion went to the toyota owners' forum and found lots of mention of the 1.8vvti and burning oil (up to 1litre per 1000 miles)the salesman denied this but a mechanic said it was a big problem!
so now to find a suitable 306. have found some nice looking examples at car giant - following hj's advice. some with only 20-30k, 2001-2002 for under £6k - seems too good to be true..
btw tunacat - had thought of the focus but not sure about their diesel and find the petrol underpowered with (relatively) high mpg..
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Hey Ho - how about a nice used Primera 2.0. Mechanically as robust as the Avvnsis (provided you maintain it) and with the fun o' the Pug too. As I have said elsewhere - I adored my 2 old 2.0eGT's I had.
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Hey Ho - how about a nice used Primera 2.0. Mechanically as robust as the Avvnsis (provided you maintain it) and with the fun o' the Pug too. As I have said elsewhere - I adored my 2 old 2.0eGT's I had.
Yes, the old P11-144 Primeras are cracking cars. Very very tough engine and super handling into the bargain. Not much to look at though. The only thing I don't like about them is the turning circle is rather large. Everything else is good.
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thanks again for your advice.
finally found, after countless hours of searching, a near perfect example of a 01 306 hdi estate with 34k miles, fdsh etc
great to drive and i know i made the right choice..
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