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Overheating. water & steam from exhaust, steam bubbling from radiator immediately on starting....compression down on 2 cylinders....removed head....gasket surprisingly intact but obviously leaking between 2 of the combustion chambers and the coolant channels....pitting corrosion in head in these areas...questions are: Should I just replace with a reconditioned head or would it be cheaper to dismantle the head and have it repaired in a local machine shop and then rebuild and why has this happened at only 140,000 miles when I have had the car from new (petrol 8v 1.2) and changed the coolant every two years?
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Getting the head skimmed to see if you can machine out the pitted and corroded material should not cost you more than £20. If you find that the head won't clean up, then you need to source another. A good source might be a scrap yard?
'only 140,000 miles' - try telling a Rover K series owner that!
Why does it happen? Castings virtually always have defects in them from new. These defects can be blowholes, or foreign body inclusions. They can frequently form the starting point for fatigue cracks.
Depending on the proposed use for the casting, it may be subject to varying levels of non-destructive testing, (NDT) in the factory.
In aerospace use, you either have to demonstrate strength and fatigue performance on a large number of cast units, or test a few cast units to higher loads, i.e., design loads multiplied up by a factor.
For automotive use, if no obvious defects appear after machining, and the engine passes its pressure test, that is about it. NDT costs money and needs skilled staff - car manufacturers like to avoid these!
number_cruncher
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As Number Cruncher. I think you have done well on it. Some rover K series were lucky to last 50k without new head..wouldnt be surprised if new head was needed. But you may be lucky. Mates 1.2 head needed replacement at 72k. though gather unit is reliable. I suppose it must be. he still has it..as matter of interest what date is it? yours I mean
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Was mech1
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Some rover K series were lucky to last 50k here is another MGF horror
Collegue at work rcently bought second hand MGF 51 plate so still under warranty( Luckily). Well happy with it untill the HG failed 2 weeks later. Car repaired by Rover dealer and given back to collegue.
Over the next 2 days collegue complains about the coolant level drops dealers answer air locks sir engines fine.
That weekend on the way up country temp gauge in the red, steam etc all gone horribly wrong. Car recovered back to dealer.
Just got it back with complete new head assembly, will be for sale soon totally feed up with it.
{Rover dealers location removed as could identify who you are talking about. DD}
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I'd say well done to Fiat for getting one to 140,000!
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May be interesting to see what replys are in a poll. if assuming DD takes it up. ie. how many suffered problems with H/G/H/ failure on K series engine. Not certain it would be overwhelming.Judging by amount of 200 series still going strong.??
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Was mech1
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If it was 140,000 and not 14,000 I would think Fiat will want the car back to strip down and see why it is so different to other Puntos.
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I. had no intentions of turning this thread into rover horror stories.I do know of these problems. As all do. I merely pointed out. Punto head lasted very well. But due to age. possibly another head was needed?. Also bear in mind. I did say "lucky" to last 50k as a lot dont. As a Ps. if job isnt done correctly. It wont last?. Maybe yours is one.I dont know?
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Was mech1
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As an ex Hillan Imp owner, head gaskets were my bread and butter! I can't help feeling that many of these problems stem from the practice of NOT using a head gasket sealant like Red Hermatite. Almost all slightly pitted head problems etc dissappeared when this was used. I always felt that bonding two surfaces together was risky as it depended on perfectly smooth surfaces and a good head gasket seal. Red Hermatite accepted that imperfections extisted and filled them. It also provided anti- corrosion capabilities if there was any water around. The lacquer on a gasket that was suposed to melt and do the same job, just never was as good. I always found use Red Hermatite, and all problems disappeared. Also is great on thermostat housings and water pumps.
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Thanks for the info
However still not sure whether to buy a recon head £350 ex VAT or do a rebuild myself and get the head skimmed.
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greatspirit can you confirm that your Punto has indeed covered 140,000 miles and not 14,000 miles.
brianrh
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Brianch, Yes a few miles short of one hundred & forty thousand.
Sounds as tho I have done quite well.
Apart from the small amount of corrosion on the face the head seems ok. No evidence of wear on the cams and oil consumption has always been negligible.
Will take advice re skimming and have been reccommended a local machinist and am waiting for him to teturn from the TT
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Depending on how much has to be skimmed, you may need a thicker head gasket depending on design of engine. It is also possible ( but do not know the price), that the damaged area can be built up by specialist welding before machining to repair damaged area. I suggest that you take the damaged head into a good machine shop and check with their advice.
Like many others, my view of 140k is that should consider yourself very lucky!
(to MW )
Also as an ex Imp owner, my experience was that I never had Head gasket OR water pump problems. The only nasty that I experienced was the timing chain tensioner allowing the timing chain to slip a few teeth when bump starting the car. Cost me 4 expensive very oversize inlet valves! My view at the time was the cars got themselves a bad reputation because too many garages were not prepared to use a torque wrench correctly. However it was the only car I have ever owned that I could change the clutch quicker than No4 spark plug.
pmh (was peter)
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My local garage man told me that he had heard that many of the Punto cylinder head gasket failures were due to the finish of the cylinder head casting causing the problems. I don't know if he meant due to "flashings" (sticky up bits) or pourous sections of the mating face. I will have to find out.
brianrh
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Take it to reconditioner. They. if worth their stuff. will tell you whether its worth doing. If not get a recon. wouldnt advise getting one from breakers though...May be more trouble than is worth.?
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Was mech1
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Regarding my recent post on blown head gasket and pitted head...thanks to everone for the various advice and:
1.Mileage is really one hundred forty thousand
2.Got the head skimmed and valves reseated for £94 inc VAT (best price for a reconditioned head £350ex VAT)
3.Renewed water pump and thermostat while I was about it
4.Total for these plus gaskets and cambelt etc about £60
5.Put it all back together yesterday....now goes like a dream
I think the cause may have been failure on my part to thoroughly bleed air from the cystem when changing coolant as suggested.
Should I now change the oil (only done 500miles ago) in case water has got into the oil.
Many Thanks
Tim
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Hi Tim,
It is good practice to change the oil and filter now - it certainly won't do any harm.
number_cruncher
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As a family with a Punto which has had quite a few problems, it is comforting to hear that high mileages are possible from them.
I was interested in your comments, I think in another thread, about looking after your Punto and in regularly changing the coolant. Apart from regular servicing what other actions do you take?
Also with modern coolants is it advantageous or wise for that matter, to change the coolant when the old is not discoloured and tests okay for resistance to freezing?
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found a worse engine than the k-series for head gasket failure.
meet 3 owners of daewoo nubira's who all had head hasket failure between 20k and 40 k.
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Hi Brianch
I only started changing the coolant on my cars as a result of advice in HJ's column (with particular reference to alloy heads)having previously left it alone.
I find the Punto spacious economical nippy and fun to drive.
As per HJ's other advice I try and change the oil and filter every 5000 miles or at least every 6 months using semi-synthetic oil (usually Halfords) and change the plugs and air filter while the oil is draining. Very little maintenance seems to be required otherwise as per the manuals, I use both the Haynes & Porter ones. Cambelt & tensioner are changed every 40,000miles but I think could be done less frequently. The engine is "non-interference" and is not harmed if the belt breaks. I find some Fiat garages doubtful and charges high and the Punto is so easy to work on that I do everything myself one out of warranty.
Good Luck
Tim
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AIUI
If you don't change the coolant on this engine you will eventually get internal corrosion problems.
If you change the coolant (to restore the corrosion inhibitors), you need to take great care there is no air left in the system.
It's an exceptional engine, but the plumbing lets it down.
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I agree. The alloy head and iron block are an electrolytic corrosion battery with the water in the coolant acting as the conductor. So...
Why can we not use a non-water containing coolant eg neat anti-freeze, extra virgin olive oil etc?
Or why can we not just add a small amount of concentrated corrosion inhibitor to the coolant occasionally without changing the whole lot and risking an air lock?
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