Not being cheeky, but I'll offer a slight correction to the above - what Makro sell in 50 litre drums is vegetable oil, which can be used to make biodiesel via a chemical reaction with methanol. To my knowledge Makro aren't selling biodiesel. If you just pour vegetable oil into your fuel tank you would be inviting a number of problems such as gelled fuel in the fuel lines, coking of injectors, etc. For a list of biodiesel outlets visit
www.biofuels.fsnet.co.uk/biobiz.htm
and
www.biodieselfillingstations.co.uk/
Not sure how up-to-date these are.
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andymc
Vroom, vroom - mmm, doughnuts ...
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We have a 406 d circa90 which runs very happily on standard cooking oil ,not sourced at Makro as they are far to dear.A heating tracer is fitted to the fuel line for winter.The vehicle plods round town no problem at all and has done for now for nearly two years.
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DON'T try biodiesel in any Fiat group JTD/Multijet (and I suspect the new GM engines built using Fiat technology). They simply are not compatible with biofuel and you will rapidly kill your fuel pump and lines.
Mind you, it took Alfa nearly a week to find this information for me...... :tut:
Very disappointed as I am keen to use alternative fuels and traditional methods wherever I can.
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Cheers Andy, I didn't know you'd made an adaptation to your car which deals with the cold fuel issue. I only felt I should post in case someone read the comment above and decided to just dump a whole lot of veggie oil in the tank, only to have a difficult time starting it the following day! I'd still suggest running a dose of injector cleaner through the car from time to time - can't do any harm and could save you forking out for a new set of injectors further down the line.
ND, if you have a link to any information provided to you by Alfa, or if you could e-mail it to me or even post here, I'd be very grateful. I'm interested in what type of fuel pump your car has and what Alfa have to say about fuel lines. The reason for the latter is that if the fuel lines are prone to corrosion by biodiesel, then they aren't suitable for ULSD either.
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andymc
Vroom, vroom - mmm, doughnuts ...
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Looking at the links above, I notice that Tesco's sell a '5%' biodiesel, I assume that this is 95% 'normal' diesel and 5% bio, what's the point in that? Is there some tax-advantage somewhere?
I'm also surprised that Alfa says not to use biodiesel, perhaps they are just covering themselves from people who throw used chip-pan oil into their tanks.
Finally, is there a diesel equivalent of 'octane' that you could compare the potentcy of real vs. bio diesel fuels.
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Truck
I think biodiesel has a lower rate of duty, and of course it helps with the "green" credentials of Tesco so it must be a good thing.
There is a diesel equivalent to octane it is called the cetane index which quoting from my trusty copy of "Technical Data on Fuel" 1977 edition (I am really up to date here) measures the ignition delay between injection and ignition. There sems to be a tes set out by the Institute of Petroleum (now called the Energy Institute)to measure this. Unfortunately my book does not give typical values of real fuels or of bio components.
Mark
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ND, if you have a link to any information provided to you by Alfa
Sadly all done over the 'phone to their customer service centre. I'll have a dig around, but last time I looked there was nothing concrete in the public domain.
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No worries No Dosh, if you can come up with anything then brilliant.
The reason I was asking is that I know that rotary fuel pumps (as once used by Ford) have a history of failure with viscous biodiesel or vegetable oil. Off the top of my head I can't think of any car currently in production which still has rotary pumps, but I'm not an expert on diesel engines so there could well be - the ones you mention for example. If there is a problem with another type of fuel pump I'd be very keen to know about it.
As I mentioned previously, there used to be an issue with fuel lines - they were once made of natural rubber, which would be corroded by biodiesel. Once moves were made to remove the sulphur from derv, it was found to have the same effect on fuel lines. This led to manufacturers using synthetic rubber for lines/seals/etc which was impervious to the corroding effects of ULSD. By happy coincidence, the same stuff is also impervious to biodiesel. Any car made in the last 10 or so years should be fine.
If these are the issues your Alfa dealer was concerned about, he may have been misinformed or have out-of-date information. I'm not saying this is the case, I'm just remembering that highly inaccurate feedback from BMW regarding biodiesel was once quoted on this site. See posts dated Fri 24 Jan 03 in the biodiesel thread -
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?f=4&t=97...4
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andymc
Vroom, vroom - mmm, doughnuts ...
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"not sourced at Makro as they are far to dear"
So, where *is* the cheapest veg oil?
V
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Bookers was cheapest last week.
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"If you just pour vegetable oil into your fuel tank you would be inviting a number of problems.."
Including a visit from HM Customs & Excise..!
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Not correct,it is quite legal to use vegetable oil,all across europe.Also ragarding Alfa/Fiat jtd they run perfectly well on bio and are sold as such in Germany and Italy with many taxis and ministry cars using nothing else
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It is quite legal to use Veggie Oil providing you have paid fuel tax on it.
As to the Alfa/Fiat thing, why on earth would Alfa UK tell me in no uncertain terms NOT to use the stuff? I know many fuels branded as "bio" are little more than 5% of the green stuff. Could this be the answer?
I'm going to get back on to Alfa and see if I can get a definitive answer.
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For a comparison of the various criteria which have to be met by derv and biodiesel respectively, visit:
www.biodieselfillingstations.co.uk/approvals.htm
Here are a few of the more relevant ones:
Criteria Derv(EN590) Biodiesel(DIN51606) Biodiesel (EN14214)
Density @ 15°C (g/cm³) 0.82-0.86 0.875-0.9 0.86-0.9
Viscosity @ 40°C (mm²/s) 2.0-4.5 3.5-5.0 3.5-5.0
Flashpoint(°C) >55 >110 >101
Sulphur (% mass) 0.20
I\'m just a cynical git, ND! In my experience there\'s an awful lot of ignorance and/or misinformation about biodiesel. It could be that whoever you spoke to didn\'t really know what they were on about. Equally, they might know something I don\'t. It could be that the higher permitted water content in biodiesel is what they\'re concerned about (though I would wait for them to tell you that - the effect over long term use is simply that the fuel filter needs to be drained/changed a bit more frequently) I\'m just surprised that the fuel pump would be mentioned when the viscosity of the two fuels (derv and standardised biodiesel) is actually so similar. They might, as I\'ve speculated before now, just be taking precautions against people who choose to make their own fuel at home, but maybe don\'t take precautions to ensure the particles are all washed out (or that the reaction goes to completion, or that the fuel isn\'t too viscous, etc).
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andymc
Vroom, vroom - mmm, doughnuts ...
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I see that hasn't lined up very well in spite of my efforts - if any mod feels like sorting it out, there's a virtual yard of my own extremely good homebrew (beer, not biodiesel!) for your trouble.
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andymc
Vroom, vroom - mmm, doughnuts ...
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if any mod feels like sorting it out,
Better?
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LOL, not for me looks like it's been in a blender, was OK earlier though.
I suppose it will never be OK for everyone at once.
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Could be that I'm viewing it on a 17" monitor set to 1024x768 pixels. It might not look right on a 15" monitor, or if you've got your settings at 800x600.
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Cheers DD, looks ok to me now. Am also using a 17" monitor with the same settings as yours.
Caxton's or Munton's? ;)
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andymc
Vroom, vroom - mmm, doughnuts ...
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Cheers DD, looks ok to me now.
Similarly to how you do ittalics, bold, underline text on this site, if you use the word 'pre' (without the quotes) and use the < before it and > after it, that's how you can get around the problem you had.
Caxton's or Munton's? ;)
Never heard of either, but Munton's has a better sounding name ;o)
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Hmm - trying to work out why. \"I\'m getting muntoned\", perhaps? (Truth be told, I am ...)
Back on topic - I seem to have missed Longdriver\'s post above. This table may be of interest:
einstein.unh.edu/~msbriggs/biodiesel/cars_on_diffe...m
And from the Veggiepower site (note - B100 is pure, 100% biodiesel, while B20 is a mix of 20% biodiesel with 80% derv):
\"Biodiesel is the first and only alternative fuel to have a complete evaluation of emission results and potential health effects submitted to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) under the Clean Air Act Section 211(b). These programs include the most stringent emissions testing protocols ever required by EPA for certification of fuels or fuel additives. The data gathered complete the most thorough inventory of the environmental and human health effects attributes that current technology will allow. A survey of the results, averaged with other major studies, is provided in the table below.\"
BIODIESEL EMISSIONS COMPARED TO CONVENTIONAL DIESEL
Emission Type B100 B20
Regulated
Total Unburned Hydrocarbons -68% -14%
Carbon Monoxide -44% -9%
Particulate Matter -40% -8%
NOx 6% 1%
Non-Regulated Sulfates -100% -20%*
PAH (Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons)** -80% -13%
nPAH (nitrated PAH\'s)** -90% -50%***
Ozone potential of speciated HC -50% -10%
* Estimated from B100 result ** Average reduction across all compounds measured *** 2-nitroflourine results were within test method variability
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andymc
Vroom, vroom - mmm, doughnuts ...
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Oh, pink fluffy wotsits. I must have been supposed to put "pre" in again at the end, and I thought I was doing so well. Now I've messed up the page format. Then again, maybe it's just a side-effect of being muntoned ...
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andymc
Vroom, vroom - mmm, doughnuts ...
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Oh, pink fluffy wotsits. I must have been supposed to put "pre" in again at the end....
You certainly did. Perhaps it was my fault for not mentioning you have to also close off the "pre" just like you do with itallics, & bold by using a forward slash.
Anyway, sorted it now. DD
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Wow, that was fast. Driving a Batmobile?
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andymc
Vroom, vroom - mmm, doughnuts ...
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There is a rumour that ND is lurking around wanting to do some moderating and editing. I didn't want him to break the habit of a lifetime and actually do some ;o)
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Yes, all three of you seem unusually active at the same time this evening. Is it a competition for who can do the most modding?
(starting with moving this to the Silly Thread, no doubt)
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andymc
Vroom, vroom - mmm, doughnuts ...
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