Mon 12 Nov 2001 14:31 Night Motorway Driving - Andy

Left Leeds heading south on the M1 at 21:00 yesterday (Sunday) night. Traffic was very light and so, although I was one of the quickest cars on the road, I was able to use the inside or slow lane most of the time. What really annoyed me was the number of times I had to move from lane one to two to three and then back from three to two to one to overtake a car cruising along in the middle lane. I do not want to begin a thread about middle lane drivers but am both intrigued and somewhat concerned about the mentality of sitting in the middle lane, especially at night when there is little traffic. My assumption would be that these drivers thought that because it was relatively late, the end of a long weekend, and that there was not much traffic on the motorway, concentration levels need not be as high and they could just drift along until they reached their destination. By leaving a whole lane on either side, their margins for any small error are increased. This mentality really disturbs me and I feel that lower concentration levels lead to a lower standard of driving and the possibility of falling asleep. But this may well not be the case. If anyone has any views on the matter, especially if someone is brave enough to admit to sitting in the middle lane, I would be genuinely interested to read them. By understanding other drivers' points of view, my driving may well improve. Yours Andy Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Mon 12 Nov 2001 14:41 Re: Night Motorway Driving - Dan J

I often drive on various stretches of motorway quite late at night and obviously experience lots of middle lane hoggers. I used to overtake them, now I don't bother and just go past them on the inside. It always amazes me that only about a third of cars I do this too suddenly wake up and shift into the left hand lane. What makes it worse is when you get some idiot doing this at about 60mph which means lorries have no option other than to either drive right up the back of them and flash, hoping they'll move over or illegally undertake them. If I was in charge I'd have their cars confiscated for a week every time they were caught doing this! Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Mon 12 Nov 2001 16:00 Re: Night Motorway Driving - Alwyn This is worse on a dual carriage way where we have nowhere to go. I see it all the time on the A55 in North Wales. Left lane empty for hundreds of yards and the right lane, doing 50 mph chokka block. Hmmmmm Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Mon 12 Nov 2001 14:58 Re: Night Motorway Driving - Brill

" I used to overtake them, now I don't bother and just go past them on the inside " The irony is that they probably 'tut-tut' at your driving. I have to admit though I would never blast past them on the inside (recipe for disaster) , I have caught them up on the inside gradually, met up with them and then carried on in the 'slow' lane, watching v. carefully for them moving back (fat chance). As you say, whether you undertake, or give an irate flash as you overtake, they still don't bother to move back in once you've passed. As you look back you can marvel at the queue of peed off drivers behind them, to which they seem totally oblivious. I think you may have opened a very old can of worms which we keep putting away, but can't resist reopening occasionally. S. Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Mon 12 Nov 2001 15:05 Re: Night Motorway Driving - Andy

Dan Two wrongs don't make a right. Although you have found a solution, I am not sure it solves the problem. If there is an unmarked police car behind you, or If a driver suddenly realised his, perhaps brief, mistake, that he had stayed in the middle lane for too long, and decided to pull in, without checking his mirrors, leading to the a collision, You would be at fault. Having said that, such an accident would certainly make an interesting test case. I am really after someone to explain the mentality behind remaining in the middle lane. I am not concerned with the legalities of who is in the wrong, I simply want to know what advantage such drivers seek to gain. If I do not receive such therapy, my constant inclinations to drive too close behind them and flash my headlights may get the better of me... Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Mon 12 Nov 2001 19:13 Re: Night Motorway Driving - Jim They are ignorant, lazy, inconsiderate poor drivers. Displaying their lack of skill to anyone who chooses to see it. I also think they probably are to frightened to move from lane to lane. Rant over, how much extra do B.M.W. drivers pay in road tax so that they own the road? Reply | Report as offensive | Link Mon 12 Nov 2001 21:27 Not another poke at BMW drivers! - John Slaughter Jim Enough of the stereotypes! You can be an idiot in any vehicle. I pay the same as everyone, and I don't own the road. JS Reply | Report as offensive | Link Mon 12 Nov 2001 21:57 Re: Not another poke at BMW drivers! - FfwlCymraeg What's the difference between a BMW and a hedgehog? On a hedgehog, the pricks are on the outside! FfwlCymraeg Reply | Report as offensive | Link Tue 13 Nov 2001 00:06 Re: another good poke at BMW drivers! - ladas are cool good one FfwlCymraeg, i also dont like BMW drivers, i rate them the same as the stupid idiots in white vans that go around the motorways driving up your boot (and these are usually white ford transit's) Reply | Report as offensive | Link Tue 13 Nov 2001 00:12 Re: another good poke at BMW drivers! - FfwlCymraeg An oldie, but a goodie, as they say. By the way, I owned a Lada once. It was my first car. Orange it was. Sounded like a tank, but good to learn to drive in - wasn't bothered about scratches or dents (none of which actually happened). Passed my test and bought a Metro. Yes I know ...... Reply | Report as offensive | Link Tue 13 Nov 2001 00:33 Re: another good poke at BMW drivers! - ladas are cool what car was better - the metro or the lada, i think it might have been the lada (but only just) Reply | Report as offensive | Link Tue 13 Nov 2001 08:41 Yet another good poke at BMW drivers! - John Slaughter Once again two well researched, well presented and perfectly balanced comments which illuminate the site with their wit and wisdom. Please don't expect any response from me in future, however dire your predicament. JS Reply | Report as offensive | Link Tue 13 Nov 2001 21:23 Re: Yet another good poke at BMW drivers! - FfwlCymraeg Hmmm, a BMW driver with no sense of humour perhaps? Reply | Report as offensive | Link Tue 13 Nov 2001 21:25 Re: another good poke at BMW drivers! - FfwlCymraeg The better car probably was the Lada, at a push. Cost of Lada = £600 traded in after 3 months for £300 (poor image) c. 1989 Cost of metro = £2500 traded in after 2 years for £500 (bag of spanners job) c. 1991 On the metro, I could at least keep my hands warm on the heated rear windscreen. FfwlCymraeg Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Mon 12 Nov 2001 15:11 Re: Night Motorway Driving - Brill

"I am really after someone to explain the mentality behind remaining in the middle lane." Andy, though it's tempting to force them over and demand an explanation, surely it's just laziness/incompetence, so you'll never receive a satisfactory answer to this one. Frustrating though. S. Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Mon 12 Nov 2001 15:14 Re: Night Motorway Driving - ian (cape town) I believe the efficient german polizei take great delight in pulling these morons off the autobahns and nailing them ... Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Mon 12 Nov 2001 15:15 Re: Night Motorway Driving - Brill

Can we hire them? Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Mon 12 Nov 2001 15:17 Re: Night Motorway Driving - ian (cape town) we *wish* ... Fortunately (???) undertaking is legal in this neck of the woods - the 'keep left, pass right' rules are largely ignored. It makes for some interesting driving experiences. Reply | Report as offensive | Link Mon 12 Nov 2001 21:22 South African Driving {:-> - David Lacey Ian, I was over in SA in January 2001. I was pleasantly suprised by the standard of driving. I was prepared for some real driving experiences as we travelled from CPT to PE stopping off at many places on the way. Oh I wish I was back there - whilst we are now sufferingthe British cold weather you are basking in 31 degree heat!! The yellow line that you can drift over to allow a faster car to pass is a great idea. The 'Thank-you' by means of a quick flash of the hazard warning lamps was given by most, if not all drivers who passed us. Great courtesy. Traffic accidents were a different kettle of fish altogether.Driving on the N2(??) after we had been to Addo Elephant Park(Excellent place to visit, BTW) we came across a road tanker which had overturned. If this had happened in the UK, you would not be able to get within 5 miles of the scene - over with you, we drove right past it!! The locals were trying to assist the recovery services in righting the tanker! Best bit? Having a full English breakfast on the balcony of our B&B in Plettenburg Bay watching the early morning traffic wind it's way up the gradual incline. Some of the scenery we drove through was breathtaking. We travelled up a pass into the mountains- I forget the name - possibly named after somebody - the views/landscape were truly awesome. I think us Brits could learn a thing or two from the SA way of driving. Rgds David Reply | Report as offensive | Link Tue 13 Nov 2001 07:44 Re: South African Driving {:-> - ian (cape town) Thanks David - maybe I just look at it with a jaundiced eye! The long trips (Yes, it is the N2 from CPT to PE) are fun, except for the long-distance minibusses... Reply | Report as offensive | Link Tue 13 Nov 2001 22:01 BMW drivers ... - David Lacey As we see all too often, the threads become personal taunts. Stupid. Spoils the whole forum. D Reply | Report as offensive | Link Wed 14 Nov 2001 08:06 Re: BMW drivers ... - ian (cape town) D, my comments re the handbook were far from a taunt - the gist was that BMW points out to a driver *NOT* to be an arrogant ass! As mentioned, if all else fails, reda the instructions! Unfortunately some see poking fun at drivers of other models as 'fun'... BTW, I drove Beemers for 10 years ... Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Mon 12 Nov 2001 15:18 Re: Night Motorway Driving - Dan J

Two wrongs don't make a right - no they don't, but I do wonder why at 2am Sunday morning on an otherwise deserted motorway, I have to drive across from the LHS to the RHS of the motorway simply to pass some berk who can't be bothered to move back onto the LHS in case he meets a lorry he might have to overtake in the next 40 miles. I do wonder if there was some Police presence around whether or not I would be pulled over for this. Really if there IS a Police car around they should be pulling the middle lane driver over. In theory, I am actually sticking to the Highway Code and driving in the correct lane for the conditions, and also not 'purposefully' undertaking the other car. It is only out of frustration that I do this anyway. I have actually come across many drivers who think that because the motorway is deserted, and they are going over 70 (usually about 80mph), they have some right to sit in the outside lane. Invariably you get right up behind them, are forced to brake to their speed whereby they wake up and slowly move out of your way. I'd much rather keep my pace driving on the LHS of the motorway and just sail past them. I bet I would get pulled over before I could say "endoresement" if the old bill were around - I just wish people would drive properly on the motorway (and then I wouldn't end up driving improperly as well!) Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Mon 12 Nov 2001 15:36 Re: Night Motorway Driving - Ian Aspinall

My late grandfather carried on driving till his late 70s, and admitted that, due to his poor eyesight, he had difficulty telling where the edge of the road was at night. He rarely ventured onto motorways, but would stray towards the middle on other roads for fear of hitting the kerb. It took a real concerted effort from the family to persuade him to give up driving. Wonder how many other people are sitting in the middle lane of the motorway for the same reason? Actually, I'd rather not think about it... Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Mon 12 Nov 2001 16:20 Re: Night Motorway Driving - Tomo

Could it be "I'm doing 70 (indicated) so anybody who is bothered must be breaking the law." ? Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Tue 13 Nov 2001 11:12 Re: Night Motorway Driving - Andy P I've come to the conclusion that the crash barrier along the central reservation along the M56 must possess some attractive force to the vacant spaces in some drivers heads. Driving along at 4.30pm, almost every day without fail, I come across a line of traffic in the outside lane doing 60mph, when the middle and inside lanes are empty for at least two miles ahead. Then, one car three miles ahead brakes, and the domino effect ripples through the line of traffic, bringing it to a complete standstill. Maybe if their brain cells got together more often, they'd use the motorway properly and this kind of thing wouldn't happen. But, as with most things, it ain't gonna happen. Andy Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Mon 12 Nov 2001 17:45 Worst motorway for middle lane hogs ? - Jake (uk)

Worst strech of motorway for Middle Lane hoggers ? My vote goes to M6 between brum and manchester. Truly awful any time day or night. jake Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Mon 12 Nov 2001 23:11 Re: Worst motorway for middle lane hogs ? - Derek M40, late at night, when nearly empty. Reply | Report as offensive | Link Tue 13 Nov 2001 10:22 Re: Worst motorway for middle lane hogs ? - John Kenyon M27, especially at the Portsmouth end - more like a 2 lane dual carriageway with a lane bolted onto the left hand side that nobody ever uses unless they are joining/leaving the motorway. /john Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Mon 12 Nov 2001 18:06 Re: Worst motorway for middle lane hogs ? - Honest John

Often, middle lane hoggers are elderly and Ethel has ordered Ernie not to drive in the nearside lane because it can be a bit bumpy over there and anyway the nearside lane is just for trucks ins't it?. But please don't even begin to think I'm defending the Ernies and Ethels of this world. HJ Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Mon 12 Nov 2001 18:14 Re: Worst motorway for middle lane hogs ? - Marman But really if these "Ernies" are driving as bad as this they should have their licences terminated, there is no room for people on the road that drive as stupid as this. This is, I believe, is one way of improving driving standards on our roads and also of relieving them of these congestion creators Reply | Report as offensive | Link Mon 12 Nov 2001 18:52 Re: Worst motorway for middle lane hogs ? - me a few points of note i) on motorways such as the m4 the inside lane has indents where many tyres have passed over it, and you can be tramlined by driving down it ii) driving in the inside lane for long distances will expose you to many challanges from idiots pulling onto the motorway with no consideration iii) you will also suffer from hgv up the bum syndrome try driving at 70 in the inside lane for a few hours, its very hard work real-world driving requires some flexibility regarding the "middle lane drivers" are all hogs rule Reply | Report as offensive | Link Mon 12 Nov 2001 19:14 Driving safety - Kev Firstly, please dont take this as a sweeping stereotype. I agree that there are some very good older drivers, and some very very bad younger drivers? Do drivers reach a peak of perfection between 25 and 50? We must however look at the facts, in general older peoples reactions slow down, eyesight deteriorates, and physical strength lowers. All these are important for good drivers. My solution would be for mandatory eye tests for everybody, free mind you, every year. There is no excuse for bad eye sight. Every few years, there would be a free road skills test, where your driving is monitored. If you fail this, you have to pay to take it again [and again, etc] until you pass it. More priority should be given to dangerous driving, not just fast driving. Using the central reservation warning signs, a variable speed limit should be introduced. At night, when it is not raining, a maximum safe speed should be set. In rush hour, fog, snow, rain, very cold [icey] times a lower limit should be posted. These ajustable limits should be patrolled, and speeding tickets given at the police officers disgression. These are just off the top of my head ways to, I believe, make motorways safer. Please disagree if you do, and I will try to explain better. Kev Reply | Report as offensive | Link Mon 12 Nov 2001 19:32 Re: Driving safety - Alwyn If older folks really are more dangerous than younger folks, I wonder why insurance companies charge older drivers lower premiums? Reply | Report as offensive | Link Mon 12 Nov 2001 20:02 Re: Driving safety - Tom Shaw There is no such thing as a free eye test, Kev, unless you can persuade opticians to work for nothing. Same with a free road skills test, examiners would expect to be paid too. So unless you pay at point of purchase, a rise in tax or fuel duty would be needed. Reply | Report as offensive | Link Sun 18 Nov 2001 08:04 Re: Driving safety - Marty Great ideas, but you've missed an important point. Who's going to pay for this facility if it's free to the motorist. Reply | Report as offensive | Link Mon 12 Nov 2001 19:35 Re: Me thinks I've spotted a MLOCM - Me 2 Me thinks I have spotted a middle lane owners club member! Reply | Report as offensive | Link Mon 12 Nov 2001 21:02 Re: Me thinks I've spotted a MLOCM - Kev Firstly, I do not believe younger drivers are better than older drivers. Thats pure tat, theres far more important variables than age which make a good/bad driver. Round here, there are some shocking young drivers, there are some shocking middle aged drivers [side by side going up a road, single laned, neither was going to move] and some shocking older drivers. What I meant is that we should try to reduce the number of bad drivers. My grandads 82 [shows my age] and he is an excellent driver. If they are compitent and pass the stated test then they have every right to be on the road. But if a 17, 18, 20, whatever young aged is, had shocking reactions or eyesight, untill they improved they should not be allowed to drive. Im sorry if you are determined to slander me whatever I say. We do not allow 12 year olds to drive because we do not believe they are compitent to, why should it be open ended? There has got to be more tests to make sure people on the road are compitent. Answering 'me2' in a way I wish I was a MLOCM, as you put it, as I cannot drive this would be impossible. Seaching back you will noticed I have always pointed this out. I think this gives me an advantage, as I can give an unbias view [ I thought] on what I see on the road. This I what I base my opinion on, so I, in theory, have no bad habits. Sorry for writing long threads. Kev Reply | Report as offensive | Link Mon 12 Nov 2001 21:12 Re: Me thinks I've spotted a MLOCM - me actually not you'd be surprized i was technically a better driver at 21, eyesight was better, coordination was better, and i could put the car where i wanted with more accuracy... at my current grand old age of 36, i am technically not such a good driver as i was at 21, but i am much more experienced having driven many miles all around the world, and i am more aware of my own limitation and mortality and tend to stay well within them i agree v old drivers can be a problem, and i actually saw an old bloke driving the wrong way around a ring road stopped by the cops and let off "cos he looks like my grandad" - which i thought was terrible considering the rest of us get 3 points for doing 35 mph females have much less spacial awareness then men, (sorry but its scientifically true), and this can cause many problems but young men are wired to take risks and act cocky human biology you can do little about, we all have strngths and weaknesses according to our age/sex/etc, its how aware of your own strngths and weaknesses that makes the difference and er none of this is an excuse for the terrible state of the road maintenance of the inside lane comapred with the average middle lane - once again sorry but its true... cheers (not a middle lane hog!) Reply | Report as offensive | Link Mon 12 Nov 2001 23:44 Re: Worst motorway for middle lane hogs ? - Andrew Tarr Just to play Devil's Advocate, why is it OK to break the law by overtaking a lane-2 driver going at the legal limit, but not OK to disobey the highway code by occupying lane 2 ? [No - I always use the slow lane when I can ! ] Reply | Report as offensive | Link Tue 13 Nov 2001 10:45 Re: Worst motorway for middle lane hogs ? - Jake (uk) Ahhh - a prime example of the thinking which leads to perceived middle lane ownership by those who drive fast / expensive cars. There is no such thing as a 'slow lane' in as much as there isn't a 'fast lane' either on the motorway. The different lanes are there with the idea that you use them for overtaking and then get back into the leftmost lane available. I know for a fact that my girfriends father (who drives a new S-Class merc) will NOT use the left hand lane for the plain fact that he thinks that his car is too expensive / fast to share a lane with metros / maestros & HGV's. This applies even when there is no traffic at all in the inside lane. Fortunately I have managed to educate my GF in the etiquette of motorway driving and lane discipline, and she now takes every opportunity to loudly remind him that he should be taking every possible opportunity to keep left. Terribly snobbish attitude I know, but how many other middle lane hogs adopt this philosophy ? Reply | Report as offensive | Link Mon 12 Nov 2001 19:17 Re: Worst motorway for middle lane hogs ? - Jim M25 Four lane stretch in Surrey, mostly they are orf down the shops or taking the kiddies to prep school. Reply | Report as offensive | Link Mon 12 Nov 2001 22:10 Re: Worst motorway for middle lane hogs ? - Sue Ever since the M25 first opened I have felt that it is the most difficult motorway in the country to drive on: traffic regularly more congested and slow moving in the outside lanes than in the inside lanes. And nothing has happened to change my opinion in the intervening years! Reply | Report as offensive | Link Mon 12 Nov 2001 23:10 Re: Worst motorway for middle lane hogs ? - Derek Funny how a jokey choice of names can hit back, isn't it? My late parents' names were.............Ernie and Ethel. And I'm sure they didn't have that kind of conversation. Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Mon 12 Nov 2001 20:07 Re: Me thinks I've spotted a MLOCM - ChrisR

A friend of mine who works in the insurance industry tells me that older drivers do have more accidents (the figure rises dramatically at around sixty). BUT, the accidents they have tend to be small bumps and scrapes, so they don't make an insurance claim - they get this information from questionnaires. Younger drivers have fewer, but bigger, accidents apparently. The insurance company only cares about the number of claims you make, and the cost of them, not the number of accidents. Chris Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Mon 12 Nov 2001 20:28 Re: Me thinks I've spotted a MLOCM - Randolph Lee

I wonder if we were all honest about it if we would admit how good our driving skills are... to those of you that are now young... all I can say is if I had known I was going to live this long 30 years ago I would have taken better care of myself...50! my god that is almost dead! don't trust anyone over 30 man! when I was under 40 (and esp. when I was under 30) I thought I was one of the worlds best drivers I was driving over 25,000 miles a year and I as a teenager had had several weeks of prof. instruction from a race car driver (John Fitch) at Lime Rock race track in my fathers 300SL Gullwing... I was precise and fast... And I had driven the Baja 1000 twice and finished both times... (not in dads Benz!) Still I did dumb(no make that idiotic!) things I once drove Solo almost non-stop from Denver to our New England farm at age 20... in 26 hours (inc a 2 hour cat nap near Davenport to avoid rush-hour) I was having visual hallucinations by the time I reached the Hudson river (A little man sitting on the rear view mirror was telling me at 2AM I was going to crash and I was telling him 'the hell I Am!) and I had a further 2 hours to go at that point...how I made It I do not know god looking after fools I guess! But I just loved driving late at night... the low traffic and CB chatter with long haul truckers warning of speed traps... watching the sunrise... and in much of the west in those years you could drive at 100 mph and if you were doing it with care the cops would not bother you ... After all in 1968 there were about 40% or less of the number of cars on the roads... now in my 50s I know I am at best an above average driver and I drive about 7,000 miles a year and really dislike driving at night... I have my eyes checked every year and now have special glasses for night driving ( the condition is age related night myopia caused by the open iris and reduction in speed of dark adaptation after a bright light dazzle (also common after 50) my daytime eyesight is still 20/20 (down from the 40/20 better than normal eagle eyes of my youth) but all this means I now no longer enjoy night driving... I think that simple eyesight tests and reaction tests are fine each year from say 50 to 70 (after age 50 we all should have a check up each year with our doctor ) but after 70 I think we should all be tested and perhaps our licence restricted to times of the day and sorts of roads until we are deemed "unsafe at any speed" (BTW I have not had an RTA for over 30 years where I was at all at fault (been rear ended a few times but that is another thread ) and some ways I think I am a safer driver today than I was in my hot shot heel and toe 20s... I am more aware of my limits and drive much further away from them then I did then (6/10 to perhaps 7/10 rather than 9/10 to 10/10 is one way of looking at it. all the best And Like everyone else I hate mid lane hogs (and I think that HJ is spot on about E & E and the condition of the slow lanes surface as one main reason for them in the USA the slow lane surface can be very bad due to overloaded 18 wheelers and lack of weight enforcement on them) ~R Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Mon 12 Nov 2001 21:29 Re: Night Motorway Driving - Simon Butterworth

Going back to the question of why a few suggestions:- The old syndrome of slow lane/fast lane. Thumb up bum, brain in neutral- good chance of that late at night, may be a seriously bad idea to startle them by undertaking. Somebody else mentioned ruts in the nearside- these are a real pain and be quite frightening, particularly when they fill with standing water. No excuses at 2am, but in heavy daytime traffic it can be difficult to judge when to pull in. This is a good subject for a return to the old public information film, is it just imagination that lack of lane discipline leads to siginficant under use of the roads capacity. In fact there is scope for a series of 30/40 second road safety primers, probably more effective than shockers about speeding. Anyone remember Mr Reginald Molehusband and reverse parking his BMC 1100, or another about mixing radial and cross ply tyres!. Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Mon 12 Nov 2001 23:50 Re: Worst motorway for middle lane hogs ? - Independent Observer

A lot of interesting points there. And some thoughts: "due to his poor eyesight, he had difficulty telling where the edge of the road was at night" Or is that recognised poor eyesight? Apparently the fastest you can drive safely with good eyesight, good reactions, good brakes etc, on dipped headlights on an unlit road is 56mph. So it must be far lower driving into someones headlights. And what speed do most people (especially the young) do in those circumstances? They are driving where they think they can see the road - if they have guessed right they survive - if wrong................. But who puts it down to being unable to see a thing? (Same with people speeding in fog - do they really have that much better eyesight than the rest of us [oldies]?) "Often, middle lane hoggers are elderly and Ethel has ordered Ernie not to drive in the nearside lane because it can be a bit bumpy over there.......... ..........on motorways such as the m4 the inside lane has indents where many tyres have passed over it, and you can be tramlined by driving down it" Now if you were driving along at night on an empty road where the left hand half of the approx. 2 car wide lane had been dug up for resurfacing, was covered in cleaned out potholes, and raised gratings would you drive (bounce around) two feet off the kerb, or would you drive on the still (or newly surfaced) half. And if another car appeared behind you: would YOU pull onto the dug up half (or expect it to overtake on the OPPOSING lane!)? "They are ignorant, lazy, inconsiderate poor drivers. Displaying their lack of skill to anyone who chooses to see it. I also think they probably are to frightened to move from lane to lane." Is this the middle lane hog, or the tailgater who expects him to pull in so that HE can carry on in the middle lane, without changing lanes, despite the fact that the car trying to to pull onto the inside lane is illuminating the slip road with fogs and spots, as well as main beams and indicators? And one more thought to close with: I don't drive particularly slowly, especially when alone in the car (which used to be most of the time). So in theory I should be forever coming up behind Ethel and Ernie doing 40 in the middle lane next to an empty lane, and rarely have a tailgater coming up behind me, flashing his lights. Whilst I do come across Ernie in that scenario on an empty motorway now and again (as opposed to stuck behind hundreds of other Ernies doing 40 nose to tail in the middle lane, alongside hundreds of trucks doing 30 nose to tail in the left hand lane, and hundreds of young thrusting sh!t-hot drivers doing 20 nose to tail in the outside lane, with the most skilled amongst them peeling off the undertake along the hard shoulder) .............. I am forever being tailgated by same on a long downhill when even with my aged eyes I can see three lanes of crawling nose to tail traffic stretching away to the horizon, or that at the exact time the tailgater is going to come level with me, that car coming down the slip road is also going to be level with me. Perhaps I'd just assumed my eyesight was worse than when I started driving (when I could legally drive without glasses, but got some anyway, because I could "see" that my eyesight wasn't anywhere near as good as it could have been). Perhaps if the tailgaters were issued with glasses too they could see WHY the person in front was in the middle lane. Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Tue 13 Nov 2001 11:13 Re: Worst motorway for middle lane hogs ? - Phil Goodacre

I once had the opportunity to confront a lady driver who had steadfastly refused to move to the empty left hand lane for several miles, when she pulled into a service area. Her response to my very polite question? Oh I'm not allowed in that lane as it's only for lorries! Aaagghh! Can we have less of the BMW stereotyping please, we are not all road hogs (or pricks). Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Tue 13 Nov 2001 11:54 Re: Worst motorway for middle lane hogs ? - John Slaughter Hear Hear! JS Reply | Report as offensive | Link Tue 13 Nov 2001 12:04 Re: BMW drivers ... - ian (cape town) I seem to recall the old 318i handbook had oodles of advice on driving the car, but most important was the continually-used phrase "The considerate BMW driver will ..." Unfortunately it seems many drivers never got round to reading the instructions ... Reply | Report as offensive | Link Tue 13 Nov 2001 21:27 Re: BMW drivers ... - FfwlCymraeg A considerate BMW driver? Anyone got any further examples of oxymorons? FfwlCymraeg Reply | Report as offensive | Link Wed 14 Nov 2001 09:01 Re: BMW drivers ... - John Slaughter There are plenty of jokes about the Welsh, but one shouldn't use generalisations so I'll refrain! Grow up. JS Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Tue 13 Nov 2001 12:35 Conclusion? - Andy

To conclude: As I said in my second post, listed fourth from the top, "I am really after someone to explain the mentality behind remaining in the middle lane". Some of the positive and negative reasons for remaining in the middle lane are as follows, and I quote: Positive: I'm doing 70 (indicated) so anybody who is bothered must be breaking the law the inside lane has indents where many tyres have passed over it, and you can be tramlined by driving down it driving in the inside lane for long distances will expose you to many challanges from idiots pulling onto the motorway with no consideration you will also suffer from hgv up the bum syndrome why is it OK to break the law by overtaking a lane-2 driver going at the legal limit, but not OK to disobey the highway code by occupying lane 2 Negative: laziness/incompetence difficulty telling where the edge of the road was at night lack of skill too frightened to move from lane to lane will NOT use the left hand lane for the plain fact that he thinks that his car is too expensive / fast to share a lane with metros / maestros & HGV's I'm not allowed in that lane as it's only for lorries All of the above responses have really enlightened me and I will, as a result, genuinely aim to be more considerate as I, personally, accept that some of the positive reasons are genuine reasons to remain in the middle lane. Whilst it may annoy me, my driving may annoy anothers, particularly if I have strayed above 70mph. On a more broader point, is not education the key? I feel that The Back Room is visited by enthusiasts and not, in general, by some of the perceived "stereotypes". A suggestion to HJ: Could you persuade those at the DT to print a resume of a key thread each week so that some of these issues reach a wider public. As I try to understand other peoples' driving mentality, if they could have the opportunity to understand mine... These attempts may seem futile but it may produce a positive outcome from The Back Room threads and, with traffic set to increase by goodness knows how much in the near future, may help to achieve a better status quo on the roads. Dissertation over. Andy Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Tue 13 Nov 2001 16:07 Re: Conclusion? - Dan J I'll have you know my 1983 1.3 Maestro with economy box would cruise at 95mph no problems. I used to love seeing the amazed faces of people in much newer (though of course not necessarily better) cars as I went flying past them! Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Tue 13 Nov 2001 12:43 Re: Night Motorway Driving - Mark (Brazil)

> especially if someone is brave enough to admit to sitting in the middle lane, That would be me. Late at night, early in the morning, driving on a UK Motorway. I am frequently the only car around and its just easier to sit in the middle lane. Its smoother, easier and requires less effort. I'm probably travelling around 85mph. I'm usually not one of the slowest around. I'll move over if I see a car coming, if on the other hand he is driving far too fast and flashing his lights like an idiot from two miles back, he can go around me. M. Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Tue 13 Nov 2001 15:29 Re: Night Motorway Driving - Brian

For my sins, I use a short (mile or so) stretch of the North Circular Road (A406) near Woodford/Walthamstow each day. Speed limit 50 mph with one camera (eastbound). It is not too bad going west, but in the evening, going east towards the M11 split there is almost always a middle lane hogger doing 30-40 mph. Part of this may be due to the road design. Where I join the slip road becomes the inside lane. Traffic already on the A406 tends to stay within their existing lines and ends up in the middle. You then gain two further lanes on the left as a slip joins and the Woodford Avenue leaves. Lots of traffic switching between these. You then come down to three lanes, two of which carry on as the A406 and the left one goes off to become the M11. There is time in that mile or 1 1/2 miles to move over into the inside lane, but I can understand the reluctance to do so if you are continuing on the A406 because it means filtering into the joining traffic, then having vehicles cutting across to get off or on, then having to move back out to regain the A406. However, I don't think that excuses effectively reducing north London's major ring road to two lanes. Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Wed 14 Nov 2001 11:58 Re: BMW drivers ... - Independent Observer

Everybody loves the Irish, and everyone "Takes the Mick" out of them. There are plenty of jokes about the Welsh, and one generalisation about Wales is that it is full of call centres because people repond best to a Welsh accent. There seem to be a lot of people around who have "grown up". Perhaps we need more who can "lighten up" ;-) Or am I misreading irony? Reply | Report as offensive | Link