Some months ago there was a TV programme featuring some villagers who were using radar speed guns to record motorists speeding through their village. Can't remember where it was but IIRC the guns had been issued by the police who stated they would issue cautions to speeding motorists.
There was also a case of a disqualified driver who was jailed for continuing to drive. The conviction was based on the video evidence of a member of the public. Again if IIRC the member of the public was the father of the lad who was killed by the dangerous driving of the aforementioned disqualified driver.
This was raised in a radio programme when someone, claiming to be an off-duty policeman, was advocating that the public should report all traffic offences they witness to the police. He argued that most of us would not hesitate to report a serious offence like a hit and run driver; so why not lesser offences?
Well few of us would condemn the father with the video camera, perhaps we are less convinced about the speed gun toting villagers. Parking offences?? Nah
So where do we draw the line?
|
Anything with a danger element to a third party, perhaps?
Drink driving, dangerous driving, disqualified driving, speeding in residential areas (particularly during the day), etc.
Mind you, if we all reported every traffic offence we witness, the crime rate would go through the roof!
|
A similar scheme operated in the former Soviet Union.
In my experience, the Police wouldn't be bothered, in fact, when you go to the Police station, it takes about 45mins to get seen by a part-time civilan on £9k pro rata wearing a fancy-dress Police uniform.
|
Wouldn't it be great to live in a country where we spent all day spying on each other and denouncing our neighbours to the police everytime they threw a sweet wrapper out of the car window?
Maybe not.
|
Not really a matter for trivialisation - If your son was killed under similar circumstances would you not do the same (or worse).
Vigilantes take the law into their own hands - maybe the driver was fortunate that the police dealt with the matter?
|
|
|
As I've just been through a very very late amber light on the embankment doing 40 (in order to squeeze through), Tom, I don't think it would be such a good idea!
There was a nice chappie called adolf who encouraged this sort of thing. On the other hand, I have rather more sympathy with the father of the dead youngster.
|
|
|
|
A similar scheme operated in the former Soviet Union. In my experience, the Police wouldn't be bothered, in fact, when you go to the Police station, it takes about 45mins to get seen by a part-time civilan on £9k pro rata wearing a fancy-dress Police uniform.
ST
In Northern Ireland there is/was a freephone number anyone can ring to report criminal or suspicious acts - aimed primarily at terrorist behaviour. The important thing is that anonymity is guaranteed, and you do not even have to give your name unless you want to; the messages are recorded as you do not speak to an operator. Obviously that system was introduced to remove the fear of retaliation.
Would a similar system be a good idea given you were of a mind to report someone, say, the drunk who drove home from the pub every night. Just the threat that he could be reported, and the police be lying in wait, might just act as a deterrent.
Obviously the N a z i/Soviet Union/Iraq police state scenario is the main danger. However there have been posts in the Backroom where untaxed cars, habitual obstructive parking etc have been reported to the police and these contributors did not receive much criticism.
C
|
|
|
|
|
|
Vigilante groups arise in societies where the majority of the citizenry feels that it can get no justice through the legal process. Do we live in such a society in the U.K.? Perhaps SootyTailpipes response gives an indication of the way the wind is blowing.
|
|
Vigilanties of course do cut down on bureaucracy. No messing with an investigation, trial or expensive defence lawyers. Simpler to drag some guy from his car and beat him to death on the spot.
|
|
Well it would cut down on repeat offenders.........
|
|
|
True, and some time you should come down to Bogota with me to see just how well such a system works on the roads down there.
And they have the added advantage that the police have adopted the same approach.
|
|
|
Tom,
please read the original post.
I accept the whole thread is provocatively mislabelled as vigilantes but reporting criminal activity to the correct authorities is not and never will be vigilante action.
Nothing in the original post advocates taking the law into your own hands unless I've misread it in which case I'm happy to be put straight.
|
Two random points:
In my home town of Northampton the locals on a certain estate have got fed up with yoofs riding stolen motorbikes through alleyways. Police did nothing about it, something about lack of resources, not sure I've heard that before so it could be wrong. So the locals have taken to stringing up neck wires. No deaths as yet but only a matter of time I suspect.
In Spain there is a specific office called (loosely translated) the Office of Denunciation where you can go to rat out your fellow citizens. The office dates back to the Court of the Inquisition.
My points such as they are:
I belive car crime is no longer included in the 'crime' statistics so the Police may be willing to record it. They won't do anything about it though. Try getting them to log a burglary, thats fun, they will do everything in their power to get it put down as something else like criminal damage.
In the absense of law enforcement vigilantism will arise and I think we will see a big rise in UK in the coming years.
Back to work...
|
|
Your quite wrong there Thommo. We are now forced to log even minor damage to dwellings as attempt burglary and car crime is one of the many statistics on which my Division is measured. The performance indicators are one of the reasons it takes so long to see a uniformed Officer. The bosses are running scared, so they have stripped the uniform shifts and created 'specialist squads' that work nice hours in order to tackle the problem. I worked single crewed last night, in an area covering hundreds of square miles. There simply are no uniformed officers around anymore.
|
|
|
|
Tom, please read the original post. I accept the whole thread is provocatively mislabelled as vigilantes but reporting criminal activity to the correct authorities is not and never will be vigilante action. Nothing in the original post advocates taking the law into your own hands unless I've misread it in which case I'm happy to be put straight.
Malcolm,
Unfortunately the term 'vigilante' is often applied to mobs who take it upon themselves to hand out punishment.
Without getting into a semantic discussion the Shorter Oxford Dictionary defines vigilante "as a member or a vigilance committee". It defines vigilance committee as "a self-appointed committee for the maintenance of justice and order in an imperfectly organised community"
All members of my local Neighbourhood Watch scheme are vigilantes. However neither they, nor the examples I quoted, take the law into their own hands but merely report to authorities in order to assist them with the maintenance of justice and order.
I submit M'lord that the thread is not mislabelled and it was not intended to be provocative - 'copper's nark' might have been.
C
|
|
|
Point taken, Malcom but the thread strayed a little as they do, and I was going with the flow.
I still don't like the idea of everyone being encouraged to rat on everyone else for driving offences, however minor. Fair enough if someone is getting into a car legless, but if we all reported each other for every little lapse the police telephones would be jammed and we would all be on the receiving end of complaints ourselves.
If anyone had reported the overtake I did a couple of weeks ago (What WAS I thinking about? It was diabolical) I would be looking at bus timetables for the next few months.
|
I wouldn't put myself on the right side of perfect either.
However, with the current lack of traffic cars something has to be done to deter the worst offenders.
I'm not sure this is the perfect solution, whatever happens is a double-edged sword - most people on this forum probably do a little more than 70mph on motorways in good conditions.
Do we want 3 points and a fine every time we exceed 77mph, no thank you! However, general consensus on the forum is that we need more policing on the roads.
I firmly believe that 5% of drivers cause 50% of accidents, it's these drivers that need dealing with.
|
I believe that we need a lot more prosecutions for dangerous driving and far fewer for minor offences.
If speeding is dangerous then prosecute for dangerous driving. Otherwise forget it.
In any accident, however minor, consider whether one driver caused it by driving dangerously: if so prosecute.
If you jump a red light: prosecute for dangerous driving.
Penalties are out of kilter: do 50 past a camera in a 40 limit in the dead of night and it costs you £60 plus 3 points plus goodness knows what on your insurance premium for the next few years.
Cause a massive pile-up and the fine goes up to a couple of hundred quid but everything else is the same.
|
I believe that we need a lot more prosecutions for dangerous driving and far fewer for minor offences.
Brian,
But the exam question(in this thread) is should Joe Public have a role in securing a "lot more prosecutions for dangerous
driving"
C
|
Why is reporting a crime 'ratting' or grassing? If I see somebody breaking into your car, should I ignore it? Probably not. What's so different about the reporting of a disqualified driver? If he crashes into your car, he isn't insured. Anyway, why should he get away with driving without the major costs? I'd shop him in a second.
iirc the speed detector guns were issued to locals who had complained about excessive speed through their village. (I sympathise as I suffer from the same problem).They were trained in the use of the radar(?) gun and they recorded speeds and car numbers, which went to the police. The police wrote to the offending drivers telling them that their speed had been in excess of the limit. I don't recall them being cautions as such.
Maybe we should all take a little more responsibilty for our lives, including helping to get rid of those who spoil things for the majority. The police can't be everywhere so need our help. Likening this to Adolph's reign is a little excessive.
|
|
|
Point taken Cardew.
On balance I'd rather not have vigilantes, but professionals concentrating on the more serious offences rather than chasing statistics.
|
I believe that these 'vigilantes' have been equiped by the police with speed guns in a village near me in Kent. What strikes me as odd is that you are vehemently discouraged from taking the law into your own hands, say when defending your property, but when it comes to motoring people are encouraged to do so.
But then I remember that as long as you remember to slow down for the speed cameras you can speed with impunity around my neck of the woods because traffic police are so rare.
I wouldn't mind if this meant that police were available when you needed them for other things, but then I remember when I did dial 999 they refused to turn up.
I think it is pathetic and will further undermine peoples faith in the police force.
(What would make me laugh is if they catch some patrol cars speeding. In my experience, the police are some of the worst speeding offenders around.)
|
|
|
Quote=BrianWOn balance I'd rather not have vigilantes, but professionals concentrating on the more serious offences rather than chasing statistics
Really couldn't put it any better. It's doing the Police no favours when there's a financial incentive to pursue speeders.
And I bet it's only a matter of time before some loony stops their car in a village "policed" by the OAP Traffic PC and beats them senseless. The proper police get enough grief, an oldie wouldn't stand a chance.
--
Lee
MINI adventure in progress
|
This will be the acid test. When a bunch of MaxPowers stop and cripple an OAP what will the police do?
My guess is they'll slink away muttering that the OAP's shouldn't have done it in the first place and they never guaranteed protection (even if the police gave them the equipment).
|
A copper has to display his "collar number" and thus can be identified.
Do civilians have to display name badges or similar?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
