The situation:
Single carriageway road with NSL. The road widens to three lanes as it goes uphill - two for uphill and one downhill with double white lines against the downhill carriageway.
Whilst out and about on my advanced driving run I was asked the speed limit on the road and I replied that it was 60mph as it is a single carriageway. But, the observer informed that it was in fact 70mph as it was a dual-carriageway on the short section that we had the crawler lane. I do not think that it is dual as there is no central reservation.
I think I am right as a friend was fined for doing 69mph on a similar road eleswhere.
Any comments?
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I don't think it has anything to do with the number of lanes, but as you say, on the existence of a central reservation dividing the two carriageways.
There was an earlier thread discussing exactly what constituted a "central reservation" (eg was a fence alone sufficient?).
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White lines down the middle of the road mean the road is single carriageway, no matter how many lines or how many lanes.
A dual carriageway is where oppossing trafic flows are seperated by a physical barrier.
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Also, there will be signs, before and after a dual carriageway if it really is one, and not a barrier on a bridge, or lighting/sign island or as part of a junction.
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The A525 near Whitchurch has 'dual carriageway ahead signs' for a part of the road that has passing lanes. There is no physical barrier between you and the opposing traffic and the lanes don't last the entire length of the road between two roundabouts. Does the dual carriageway ahead sign mean that on the sections with the passing lane are 70 because it is signed as a dual carriageway even though there aren't barriers?
teabelly
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Schedule 6 Part 1 Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 deals with speed limits for various vehicles on Motorways, DUAL CARRIAGEWAYS not being a Motorway and other roads.
Part IV of said schedule is the interpretation part and defines Dual carriageway as-
a road part of which consists of a central reservation to separate a carriageway to be used by vehicles proceding in one direction froma a carrieway to be used by vehicles proceeding in the opposite direction.
Central reservation is not further defined but is so at Traffic Signs and General Directions 2002 : -
\"central reservation\" means -
(a) any land between the carriageways of a road comprising two carriageways; or
(b) any permanent work (other than a traffic island) in the carriageway of a road,
which separates the carriageway or, as the case may be, the part of the carriageway which is to be used by traffic moving in one direction from the carriageway or part of the carriageway which is to be used (whether at all times or at particular times only) by traffic moving in the other direction;
I would argue that white lines alone do not create land at (a) above. [missing \"not\" inserted. Mark.]
DVD
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>>'Any land'
To create land between the carriageways, presumably we require two solid white lines. If the one on the single-lane carriageway has a dotted white line, then maybe we haven't created two carriageways?
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And the corollary is that two single lanes going in the opposite directions but with double white lines down the middle, gives rise to a dual carriageway.
Shurely shum mishtake?
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The Leeds ring road has this situation - one lane down, two lanes up. It now has cameras - if anyone is willing they can go up the dual section at 70mph and see if they get a ticket!
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I cannot belive that the whole strech of the Heads of the Valleys road between Abergavenny and Hirwain is classified as a dual carriageway, even though it's 3 lanes for much of its length (about 35 miles!!)
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Daveyjp,
Which section of the Leeds ring road are you refering to?
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Just worked out the answer to my question - Rodley to Dawsons Corner - is that section NSL?
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I would argue that white lines alone do create land at (a) above.
Hmm. Do the white lines not denote the edge of the carriageway? Hence the outer edge of the white line is the perimeter thereof. In which case, there is no land "between" the carriageways, in this example, since the white line is on the carriageway. The mapmaker conundrum is accordingly solved.
The DVD solution would only apply if there were TWO sets of white lined patterns* with a gap therebetween, the said gap thereby constituting "land between the carriageways".
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*defined thus to avoid problems with double-white lined road; the two white lines then form a single "pattern"....
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But I'm sure that roads where the two lanes have been divided by a hatched area instead of double white lines don't count as dual carriageway either?
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Still a single "pattern".....
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The strangest bit of dual carriageway I know, is between Milton Ernest and Thurleigh, north of Bedford. The road is an unclassified country lane, but for a short stretch of about 1/2 mile, there is a concrete central reservation. There is no obvious reason for its existence, but I suspect it has something to do with the Qinetiq site very nearby.
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I had a discussion with a bike plod some time ago about a slightly strange DC - the 'land' in the middle narrowed down, still leaving the four lanes. He told me the DC started (and ended) where the blue sign said 'dual carriageway' and if there wasn't a sign, then there was no DC.
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>>>>I would argue that white lines alone do create land at (a) above.<<<<<<
Oh mah gord just re read that and there is a NOT missing.
Should be I would argue that white lines alone do not create land at (a) above.
Sorry.
DVD
Corrected. Mark.
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>>Oh mah gord just re read that and there is a NOT missing.
And there I was thinking that you were taking a rather bullish view of the law for once!
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Hi,
I raised exactly the same question on an IAM run and got exactly the opposite answer. The observer did go and check his understanding and came back with the technical details laid out in the other replies.
On this occasion, I think your observer, was incorrect. It is only 60mph
Good luck with the rest of the drives
Regards
Vercin
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It seems to me the whole situation is ripe for re-definition. Instead of expecting people to make instant decisions about whether the gap between the carriageways constitutes a legal definition of "land" or not, wouldn't it make more sense if all roads were assessed as to what was the reasonable safe maximum speed, and signposted accordingly?
I can see that the existence of a crash barrier down the middle may well make it safe to increase the limit to 70, but painting the lines so the the space becomes "land" doesn't change anything.
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What? Set speed limits according to what is a safe speed along that section of road? Interesting concept...
It'll never catch on...
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I can see that the existence of a crash barrier down the middle may well make it safe to increase the limit to 70, but painting the lines so the the space becomes "land" doesn't change anything.
Cliff, you might think that putting crash barriers in the central reservation would make a road safe to increase the limit but Essex CC don't agree. A few years back they put barriers down a dual carriageway in Wickford which had a narrow central reservation, and several cross-over crashes. They promptly reduced the limit from NSL to 50mph as they argued that the new barriers were too close to the carriageway to allow traffic to travel at NSL! There's logic and there's logic!
Cockle
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One particular example in Oxfordshire, wide central reservation and physical barriers, but no white line at the edge and some junctions directly onto the carriageway, signed at various points at NSL. Pavements and cycleways adjacent to both sides separated only by 6 feet of grass.
No dual carriageway signs, but by the definitions reported by DVD this counts as dual carriageway so for the NSL section a 70mph limit....I dont trust this and limit myself to 60mph.
A very grey area and one that I dont want to test using my licence!
StarGazer
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