Without turning this in to a motorbike rant, all of the above and then some.
I find car drivers to be just doppy. They must be half asleep at the wheel as the only thing that seems to register in their consciousness is another vehicle the same size or bigger than them. I have lost count of the number of times cars have just pulled out in front of me when I am on and going round a roundabout. And if I catch them and argue with them (which I always do if I can) its always the same line. 'I didn't see you' No because you didn't @@**$%£ look!
Seems particulary bad betwen 2 and 3pm which is when the body naturally dips after lunch. Try policing that with a camera!
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without wanting to condone the treatment you have suffered over the last few days cos I don't.
The fact of the matter is that a mutaul contempt between cyclists and motorists has developed over the years and shows no sign of improving.
Many cyclists flaunt the laws in a such a way that leaves many motorists angry and frustrated. Many motorists simply don't "see" cyclists.
As a lapsed biker I have a good awareness of the road around me but most people don't regardless of their mode of transport.
I live in the country and frequently come across 3 or 4 cyclists riding abreast and completely unwilling to give way to me or at least cycle in single file as they should. I have no choice but to attempt some dangerous manouveur to get past them.
Of course in my much bigger and heavier car I could just drive over them but some might consider that rude. I consider their 2 fingered salutes as I give a little toot on the horn to say "I am here" rude.
And just as sail has right of way over powered vessels. would you argue right of way with the Ilse of White ferry in a 25' pandora?
So why argue right of way with a car?
It's not all the fault of the motorists.
JaB
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I consider their 2 fingered salutes as I give a little toot on the horn to say "I am here" rude.
Can't condone four abreast riding, but what sounds like a "little toot" inside the car is very loud and startling outside. A car horn is designed to be heard inside other vehicles over the sound of engines, radios, crying children and so on. So that's why you get the salute and frankly you'd get one from me too. Giving a "little toot" on the horn either to say you're there or to (heaven forfend) thank a cyclist for letting you past, is the best way to make an inexperienced cyclist wobble into your path and the best way to make an experienced one angry. Don't do it.
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>> I >> consider their 2 fingered salutes as I give a little toot >> on the horn to say "I am here" rude. Can't condone four abreast riding, but what sounds like a "little toot" inside the car is very loud and startling outside. A car horn is designed to be heard inside other vehicles over the sound of engines, radios, crying children and so on. So that's why you get the salute and frankly you'd get one from me too. Giving a "little toot" on the horn either to say you're there or to (heaven forfend) thank a cyclist for letting you past, is the best way to make an inexperienced cyclist wobble into your path and the best way to make an experienced one angry. Don't do it.
A very light tap of the horn push produces little more than a squeak out of most horns. I know exactly how loud it is thank you I drive a convertable. ;;)
I say thanks when its warranted ( and not just to cyclists) and I resent you implying that I'm as rude as a lot of people on the road are. If the cyclists get out of my way I say thank you. If I'm about to overtake them and they have either A) not noticed me or B)are simply being ignorant then I will use the horn of my vehicle in the manner prescribed within the Highway code.
Advice... don't give it unless you have something sensible to say.
JaB
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Advice... don't give it unless you have something sensible to say.
I think you'll find I didn't say you were rude, I implied that a toot on the horn may not have the effect on the cyclist that you might expect. As an experienced club cyclist (who never rides more than two abreast) I can tell you that car horns can be extremely alarming when you're not expecting them to go off. If there is a bunch of cyclists it can even cause a crash: I've seen it happen. Would you do that to horses? It's a similar situation.
If cyclists are behaving like idiots riding four abreast just do as you would do with other road users: keep calm and get past when it's safe. It's their funeral after all.
As for your final comment, well I think that just sums up the "I know best" attitude your post exudes. But then maybe your "little toot" really is smaller than most. ;-)
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Children! It will be bed with no tea in a minute, smiley or no smiley.
I was tempted to call it a "winky" but in the context of Chris' post I felt it best not to.
No Dosh - Backroom Moderator
mailto:moderators@honestjohn.co.uk
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As for your final comment, well I think that just sums up the \"I know best\" attitude your post exudes. But then maybe your \"little toot\" really is smaller than most. ;-)
I was going to make a reasoned argument but you\'re
8 Not going to get away with that? ND
;-) back atcha.
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> Not going to get away with that? ND ;-) back atcha.
Cheers ND... was gonna change it myself TBH but no edit button
besides it's the thought that counts ;-)
JaB :)
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Another thing that makes motorists in London anti-bicycle (apart from their totally ignoring red traffic lights) is the number of cycle lanes (kerbing et al) recently installed which are almost totally unused by cyclists - maybe four an hour or so - but which reduce the usable road for motor vehicles from two lanes to one, thus meaning it takes two or three changes of traffic lights to get through when previously it could be done in one.
Repeat that half a dozen times and that's an extra 15 minutes on your journey.
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Cycle lanes in this country are a real problem. Believe it or not councils make political capital on their cycling provision, but very few are prepared to spend any money on it, or if they do get earmarked funds they like to do something big and spectacular. What that means in practice is that cycle lanes are either a coloured bit of paint down the side of the road barely wider than the drain grids, or massive wide paths that stretch for miles along dual carriageways--possibly the most unpleasant of all roads to be cycling on or near, especially in bad weather. So cyclists avoid them with good reason. The high kerb model favoured in parts of London is avoided because the lanes themselves are rarely wide enough and the high kerb is lethal--no margin for error or accident avoidance at all. The exit points from these lanes are especially bad in my experience. But my personal favourite is the "purpose-built" cycle lane (read "slippery white line dividing pavement in half") with trees at regular intervals right down the middle.
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They may not have seen you because the A pillar was in the way. If you approach a junction at a certain angle then the A pillar can obscure entire cars. Thicker A pillars on modern cars are making this a more common occurrence.People don't always realise that even if the glance around either side of that pillar on the way up to a roundabout a vehicle might be going round in such a way that they are still hidden even with glances either side. I always make sure to angle myself so I am looking through the driver's side window as I get there so I can stop if there is something I haven't seen already.
The exact route you take on the roundabout can affect whether they see you or not. Unfortunately it is not always easy to take a route where you can see the face of a driver approaching. If you can manage to position yourself so you can see their face then they are more likely to see you.
teabelly
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I used to cycle to work - had the full kit, lights, motorbike hide padded jacket, visibility stripes, etc. would regularly have car drivers look straight through me and could anticipate when they would try to kill you.
It should be compulsory for all car drivers to ride a bike first, call it a road apprenticeship.
The one thing that really gets my goat however is cyclists who have a rear light, and turn it on, but don't have a front light, or have one and leave it off. Do they expect the impact to come from behind? don't they think the car turning in from the side road on the left is a threat?
It should be compulsory for all bike riders to drive a car for a while, in twilight, when the sky's still bright, but the ground dark, and see how invisible dark coated pedestrians and unlit cyclists are.
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>>>It should be compulsory for all bike riders to drive a car for a while, in twilight, when the sky's still bright, but the ground dark, and see how invisible dark coated pedestrians and unlit cyclists are.
And for pedestrians. There's mutual incomprehension of cyclists & drivers, I'm afraid. Eye contact is the only thing that will keep you alive. That & cycle paths. In three years of doing a 3-mile commute to the station in Cambridge the only accident I had was when a 9-year-old girl stepped out in the road in front of me & sent me spinning over the handlebars & down the road. But fortunately I had cycle paths for most of the way - otherwise I doubt I would have done it.
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Ah, cycling in Cambridge. This is the one place in England where you would think you are safest, with so many cycles around that all drivers must be aware of you. Some of them are still oblivious, though. Worse than that, Cambridge is the place where I was DELIBERATELY knocked off my bike! I was heading down Trumpington Road and needed to turn off right. Looked over my shoulder, waited for 50m gap, made big hand signal. Car approaching was a Volvo (!), didn't attempt to slow, wasn't signalling. I looked him in the eye, emphasised my hand signal and moved out to the crown of the road. Did my right turn and was off down the side-road. Volvo followed me, raced alongside, nipped in just in front and did a deliberate, full, emergency stop. Volvo's brakes being better then mine, I couldn't stop and crashed into his tailgate. Volvo drove off, laughing. I wasn't hurt but I was so mad I nearly burst. I didn't get his number either, which is a shame as I would have loved to have traced him.
By the way, I'm not too happy with JaB's bit above about being forced into a dangerous manoeuvre in order to overtake cyclists he considers are blocking his bit of road. Tut tut. If you know it's dangerous WHY DO IT? And no law says that cyclists cannot ride two abreast, either.
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By the way, I'm not too happy with JaB's bit above about being forced into a dangerous manoeuvre in order to overtake cyclists he considers are blocking his bit of road. Tut tut. If you know it's dangerous WHY DO IT? And no law says that cyclists cannot ride two abreast, either.
I'm not agreeing with performing a dangerous manoevre, but it seems a bit much to expect a car to stay behind a group of oblivious cyclists doing 15-20mph on a country lane. I think JaB's point was that you should be aware of cars if you want them to be aware of you.
BTW, this is from the highway code, cyclists section:
You should
not ride more than two abreast
ride in single file on narrow or busy roads
be considerate of other road users.
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I'm a car driver and a cyclist, and I do a lot of riding on country lanes (that's where I live).
I don't often ride two abreast, although if I'm out with one of my kids I might do where the road permits. I do however expect car drivers to pootle along at my speed if it would be dangerous to overtake, and I do get out of the way whenever there's an opportunity. The locals round here are fine with this.
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By the way, I'm not too happy with JaB's bit above about being forced into a dangerous manoeuvre in order to overtake cyclists he considers are blocking his bit of road. Tut tut. If you know it's dangerous WHY DO IT? And no law says that cyclists cannot ride two abreast, either.
two abreast is fine and a lot of cyclists do move into single file when they see/hear a car coming but there is a cycle club not far from where I live the members of which show no respect to other users.
Dangerous was perhaps the wrong term to use... I don't over take them in a dangerous position but any attempt to overtake 3 or more abreast cyclists who are laughing and joking amongst themselves, very possibly abusing me because I have to audacity to drive a car and am atempting to give them room and allow me to carry on unimpeded by them, *is* inherently dangerous.
besides I was merely pointing out that the car driver is NOT always to blame.
JaB
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...I disagree with what "Just a bloke"''s saying
...two cyclists abreast are a menace :):):):):)
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...I disagree with what "Just a bloke"''s saying ...two cyclists abreast are a menace :):):):):)
Why you! Grr!
How dare you....
;-)
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...oh b*****..wasn't me that knocked u off ur cycle last week was it> :( :)
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...oh b*****..wasn't me that knocked u off ur cycle last week was it> :( :)
Well that's what the swear filter is for.....
:o)
No Dosh - Backroom Moderator
mailto:moderators@honestjohn.co.uk
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...am I untrusted on this site
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No, far from it. I make full use of the swear filter myself. b****y useful.
:o)
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[Serious moderator mode]
Just for the avoidance of doubt we do have an automated filter which allows the mods to define words that are considered unacceptable, as do many other forums. The list is pretty exhaustive but I wouldn't want any of you to think that this is an invitation to "test the armour". It isn't.
:o|
More info can be found here www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?f=2&t=23...4
[/Serious moderator mode]
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This particular motorist would find it a lot easier to cope with cyclists if the council stopped peppering local roads with 'keep left' islands which prevent him overtaking them.
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Remember also that not all cyclists are perfect and that not all of them take the extra safety precautions which they obviously need.
Just last night, I was pretty close to mowing down a cyclist. I was driving down a relatively clear main road, getting ready to overtake him.
For what I could see as no reason at all, every now and again he suddenly swerved violently some 2 or 3 metres to the right, and then back again, preventing me from being able to trust his actions enough to overtake.
I'm sure he wasn't playing games with me (I doubt many cyclists would be that reckless with their own lives) so maybe he was just a very inept example or a beginner.
However, I was just really glad that I'd noticed his erratic cycling before overtaking.
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I only enjoy cycling on country lanes or on tracks such as byways or bridleways. I do cycle a bit around town or on main roads to get out into the country. As it turns out most of my cycling is recreational - my work is 15 miles away along a busy A-road (but I do my bit of planet-saving by working at home 1 or 2 days a week!) I tend to walk into town where I live as it is a pleasant 1 mile stroll.
Riding a bike on a busy main road gives me the same apprehension as driving on a motorway in dense fog!
Cheers, SS
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Some interesting points raised here.
I completely agree with points about cyclists poor behaviour - obviously being courteous on the roads is a two-way thing, but i have found that around urban areas - where i ride - motorists are generally more of a menace than cyclists are.
On the riding 2+ abreast issue, i have to agree that experienced cyclists, even on country lanes, should be moving back into single file at the first opportunity when a car wants to pass. The only exception to this would be when as someone pointed out, they were cycling with a child, and so wanted to place themselves between the car and the child.
Cycle lanes - Personally i'll use them if they're there, but often they serve no purpose beyond endangering the cyclist. Often they are so short that they are useless, and often cars park in them, meaning you have to move out into unsuspecting traffic, and often when they abruptly end for no apparent reason you are dumped back into a stream of, again, unsuspecting traffic.
Lastly, HF - The cyclists actions do seem strange, but perhaps the road was in such a bad state of repair that he could not safely ride nearer the kerb? Just an idea, either that or he was exactly the idiot minority which incite the hatred between cyclists and motorists.
Either way, i see no easy solution to changing this mindset for the benefit of everyone - any ideas?
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I've just returned to cycling after a 30yr rest. Judging by media reports and what I've read on this site I expected violent confrontations and abuse every day. No such thing !
Most motorists allow plenty of room when passing and some hold back to the point where I wish they WOULD overtake. Now and then someone will try to 'pinch' a bit of my space, but I suppose they do that to other motorists as well. I avoid large roundabouts by crossing the road /s before the roundabout and cycling on the pavement, rejoining the road where it suits me. Pedestrians don't seem to mind as long as I'm travelling at walking pace when passing and give them the right of way. (Often get a nod and smile). So far, it's been so good.
By the way, it's an electric bike - head winds and hills don't bother me, I can pedal when I feel like it. It's cheaper and just as quick as my car - and a lot more fun.
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