First car for 17 year old daughter | Motoring discussion | Back Room Forum

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 09:54

First car for 17 year old daughter - ubidenmark

I'm looking for a car for my daughter who has recently turned 17 and obtained a provision licence. I am considering a new or nearly new Vauxhall Corsa 1.2, in any of its guises. Would this be suitable car for her to learn in and use around town for a few years ? I believe it can run on both LPG and petrol.

On another subject, I am also considering enrolling her for intensive tuition over two weeks with a driving test at the end of it. Does anyone have any experience of this type of learning and whether it is more or less effective than learning over an extended period ?

Thanks in advance.

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 10:02

First car for 17 year old daughter - BazzaBear {P}

To answer your second question first:
I would leave off booking the test until a driving instructor has had a couple of lessons with her and can advise you. It may be that your daughter will be able to attempt a test after two weeks, it may be that she'll need longer. I'd say the instructors opinion, as an expert, would be valuable there.

My personal opinion on first cars for new drivers is that they should be old and cheap, for a variety of reasons
1) Even if it's only a slow-speed parking type thing, they really are more likely to be in a prang of some description, and if the car cost less than a grand it's a lot less of a problem.
2) I'm not sure that it's good for someone to be given something as major as a new car on a plate. When it comes to a relatively posh car, will she not appreciate it more if she has to get it for herself?

And yes, that is a matter of opinion, and yes I do sound like a proper old codger, and no, I'm only 26.

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 10:05

First car for 17 year old daughter - BazzaBear {P}

Oh, and to make myself sound even more middle-aged, whatever car you do buy her should be as slow as possible. :D

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 10:09

First car for 17 year old daughter - BazzaBear {P}

(sorry about the multiple answers)

But not an automatic. I assume she'll be learning in a manual, and at that early point it'd be good to keep her hand in, otherwise she could end up not being confident of driving a manual for a long time.

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 10:11

First car for 17 year old daughter - ubidenmark

Yes, she'll be learning in a manual.

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 10:09

First car for 17 year old daughter - Older_not_wiser

Can you get anything slower than a Corsa 1.2?

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 10:37

First car for 17 year old daughter - machika

Can you get anything slower than a Corsa 1.2?

Yes, a Corsa 1.0 for one, but even that will do 96mph. A current 1.2 is good for 106mph, more than quick enough for a 17 year old.

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 10:43

First car for 17 year old daughter - PhilW

Quite a few threads on this if you do a forum search (go to top right of this page)
Here's one for starters
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=19814&...f

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 10:46

First car for 17 year old daughter - BB

How about a Fiat Panda. Cheap to insure and lots of character.

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 10:52

First car for 17 year old daughter - Mike H

Yep, that was my thread!

My starting point was investigation of the NCAP site referred to in that thread, as safety was the most important angle for me. This narrowed my thoughts down to a Megane, Punto, or Astra Mk 3 (the recentlt superseded model). Then moving on to pricing, I could only afford £1500-2000, and that meant I could get a nice 1.4 Megane, round about 97-98 for that money, which was no problem for insurance - Tesco quoted just under £900 with me as main driver, plus wife and 17-year old son as named drivers (included 4 years NCB). At this stage I will be the main driver with just the odd outing for my son as he will be having lessons as well.

Haven't bought the car yet as I'm in no rush but there are some nice Meganes around for that money.

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 11:31

First car for 17 year old daughter - Peter D

Intensive driving can be very effective at getting through the test. But do they teach you to drive ?. You could spend two weeks driving in the dry sunny weather, pass your test and the next day it rains and whack, impact stunt. In my opinion the instruction need to be spread out, different times, different weather, and different traffic densities. Survival is not taught in two weeks. To reduce the cost of insurance I would look at taking the ‘Pass Plus’ test after passing the main test as it can offer an automatic pseudo 1 years NCD and in some cases, if no claim, 50% in the second. The car has to be in her name and fully comprehensive.

Now the car. Firstly do you really want to buy the car first and insure it with a provisional driver, or after the test and get the car and put it directly in her name. I, with three children all now grown up, preferred the latter and used a local company dual control leaner cars for tuition of the fundamental control and a Driving School to teach them to get through the test. As far as cars are concerned VW Polo’s, did the job well then but I guess in more modern terms a 98/99 Corsa, Pug 106 or the newer Polo’s or even a Lupo if you like the shape. Regards Peter

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 11:33

First car for 17 year old daughter - Turbodog

I hear what others have said about buying something really cheap, but given that a young driver is more likely to have an accident I would want to get something crash-worthy. An old Fiat Panda might be cheap, but I wouldn't want to crash one, still less my daughter.
I'd recommend a Ford Ka; they are relatively cheap to buy and insure, and you can get them with airbags and ABS (the latter is essential IMO) and they are funky enough to satisfy a teenagers style requirements.

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 11:45

First car for 17 year old daughter - J Bonington Jagworth

Is ABS essential? I should have thought it better to start without, so at least you can be aware of what happens when you press the pedal too hard (and know how brakes really work). I appreciate that it's arguable the other way, but I put the suggestion forward...

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 11:50

First car for 17 year old daughter - Adam {P}

Buying a remotely new car would be a big big mistake. In situations like this I will quote my good friend who has a brand new Corsa SXI and has crashed it now 6 times. Whilst I'm sure your daughter would be a good driver I know I'd rather pay for repairs on an N- Reg Fiesta/Corsa than a brand new one. Let's not forget how much insurance is going to be as well - pretty steep I would think. Perhaps the money saved from buying an older car would be best spent on this. Sorry to sound so pessimistic but if she crashes or someone crashes into her you'll thank most of the people on here for their suggestions....I would hope!
Adam

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 12:12

First car for 17 year old daughter - Turbodog

"Whilst I'm sure your daughter would be a good driver I know I'd rather pay for repairs on an N Reg Fiesta/Corsa than a brand new one.

Sorry to sound so pessimistic but if she crashes or someone crashes into her you'll thank most of the people on here for their suggestions....I would hope!"

If you're going to be pessimistic, which is fine, then surely you want to buy a car which she's less likely to crash (ABS) or if she does crash she's more likely to escape serious injury (ABS again, airbags, modern passenger compartment crash worthiness).
Do you really rate low repair costs over these?

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 11:57

First car for 17 year old daughter - Turbodog

I think it is essential; in an emergency I just want to stop as quickly as possible, and I don't care how brakes work. I know all about pumping the brakes rapidly after you start to skid, but even with that I've had two accidents in non-ABS cars which I'm certain would have been prevented by ABS. Even more important for an inexperienced driver...

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 12:13

First car for 17 year old daughter - BazzaBear {P}

Out of interest, why are you so certain that ABS would have allowed you to avoid these accidents?

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 12:17

First car for 17 year old daughter - Turbodog

Skidded on a damp country lane, pumped the brakes and regained control but didn't stop quick enough to avoid crashing into the Astra van coming the other way.
The other time was a similar story. I've now got ABS cars, and there is absolutly no comparison in how quickly they pull up.

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 12:23

First car for 17 year old daughter - BazzaBear {P}

See, this is what worries me.
ABS does not reduce your braking distance. What it does is allow you to steer while braking. The misconception that it will allow you to pull up sooner is a widely held one, and quite dangerous in my opinion, since it can give people a very false sense of security.

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 12:30

First car for 17 year old daughter - Adam {P}

TurboDog,

Let's not turn this into an argument.

My first car, an N-Reg Fiesta as it happens had airbags and a "modern passenger compartment" whatever one of those is. It didn't have ABS granted but as BB rightly states - ABS only allows you to turn when braking. The only time I've skidded is coming around a corner and kid was in the road so I braked naturally but because of the reflex reaction, the car skidded and I surprised myself when I took my foot off and braked a little more gently and stopped well before I would have hid the little lad.

ABS is great if you have it but not the end of the world if you dont.

Cheers

P.S. I can't remember who said it but it is perhaps best she learns in a car without. I'm glad I've experienced a skid without should it ever happen in a car without again.
Adam

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 12:35

First car for 17 year old daughter - Turbodog

Well I'm happy to be corrected, but I can't believe it doesn't shorten stopping distance. The rapidity with which ABS brakes on and off, reacting immediately it senses the skid, can't be matched by pumping the brake. Regardless of steering control that will shorten braking distance, won't it?

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 12:40

First car for 17 year old daughter - Adam {P}

I'm no expert but I'd be inclined to say no. Perhaps even the opposite. I do know what you mean about stopping more solidly though. In the Focus, the brakes seem to be 10 times better but I suspect it's down to the design/brake pad types and servo etc.. rather than the ABS.
Adam

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 12:42

First car for 17 year old daughter - Robin Reliant

No, ABS does not shorten braking distances. As stated, it's function is to allow you to steer while braking. The shortest stopping distances are achieved with all wheels locked and smoke pouring off the tyres. Unfortunately you have absolutely no control over the car in that situation as it will go where it's inertia takes it.

The misconseption about the purpose of ABS is the reason why you find people sitting on your bumper at 70mph on the motorways.

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 12:46

First car for 17 year old daughter - Turbodog

Fair enough; interesting that. Does it hold true for all road conditions?

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 12:52

First car for 17 year old daughter - Welliesorter

Getting back to the original point about ABS, I can see JBJ's point, but as a relatively inexperienced driver I'm not entirely confident in my ability to think quickly enough to brake correctly without it.

It may be that cadence braking is second nature to experts, but releasing the brake in an emergency has got to be counter-intuitive for most people, especially new drivers.

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 13:14

First car for 17 year old daughter - RichardW

>The shortest stopping distances are achieved with all wheels locked and smoke pouring off the tyres.

No, the most effective braking is achieved just before the wheels lock up. Once a wheel is locked the car floats on a film of liquid rubber, reducing decelleration. This point is very difficult to hold - especially in an emergency, and only the very best drivers can do it.

Anyway back to the thread... My first car was a Citroen Visa Special. 652cc of aircooled hilarity - with virtually no brakes (servo? what do you want one of those for??). This taught excellent anticipation - emergency tops were to be avoided, and you didn't want to lose that hard won inertia. Around 95% of accidents are cause by driver error, so the best thing you can buy your daughter is lots of driving experience, followed up by some advanced tuition with ROSPA or IAM once she has passed her test.

It always amuses me that people go out of their way to buy the 'safest' car they can, costing £000's, but are not prepared to spend an extra £100 and a few hours of their time to improve their skills.

--
RichardW

Is it illogical? It must be Citroen....

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 13:18

First car for 17 year old daughter - Turbodog

I've been thinking about my crash; given that it was a reasonably straight bit of road if I'd just kept my foot on the brake I might not have collided with Astra van...

But putting any ABS misconceptions apart I would still argue the safety advantages of a more modern car over an old banger. Did any of you see the Top Gear (think it was TG, might have been 5th gear..) where they crashed an old Renault Espace into a new one? They concluded that the driver of the new model would have walked away, whilst the driver of the old one would have been killed or seriously injured.

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 13:44

First car for 17 year old daughter - Dynamic Dave

No, ABS does not shorten braking distances.

In a recent episode of Top Gear (the one where they had to buy a car each for under £100) in a straight line braking test, Richard's Rover 200 stopped - eventually, James Audi 100 stopped a little earlier, but Jezzers 3 tonne Volvo stopped on a sixpence. The first two didn't have ABS, but the volvo did.

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 14:17

First car for 17 year old daughter - BazzaBear {P}

>> No, ABS does not shorten braking distances.

In a recent episode of Top Gear (the one where they

had to buy a car each for under £100) in a

straight line braking test, Richard's Rover 200 stopped - eventually, James

Audi 100 stopped a little earlier, but Jezzers 3 tonne Volvo

stopped on a sixpence. The first two didn't have ABS, but

the volvo did.

Indicative possibly, but certainly not conclusive. My parents having owned a Volvo 740, but without ABS, I can tell you that they do have exceedingly good brakes.
There's no proof there that the difference was anything to do with the ABS.

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 14:21

First car for 17 year old daughter - Adam {P}

I was watching that episode on and off but wasn't the ABS light on constantly? I.e. - was the ABS actually working?

Adam

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 14:25

First car for 17 year old daughter - BazzaBear {P}

Now you mention that Adski, I think you may be right. It was one of the 17 electrical faults they found :D

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 14:31

First car for 17 year old daughter - Robin Reliant

Braking distances are determined mainly by the combined quality of the discs and pads, tyres and suspension. ABS will not further decrease the distance, nor was it designed to.

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 15:05

First car for 17 year old daughter - Stargazer {P}

Also, under some road conditions, ABS will extend braking distance
(for example dirt or gravel road) but will allow control of the steering.

StarGazer

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 15:09

First car for 17 year old daughter - Mapmaker

>>shortest stopping distances are achieved with all wheels locked and smoke pouring off the tyres.

Is this really true? I was under the impression that contact friction was greater than sliding friction, under any circumstances.

I imagine that when the tyres start to smoke & melt, you end up with a nice liquid lubricating layer that helps you to skid - in much the same way as an ice skate works by melting the ice under the blade.

The highest friction is thus obtained at the point when a car is just about to skid. As I understand it, this is how/why ABS works, as it allows you to have wheels that are always at the skid point.

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 15:11

First car for 17 year old daughter - Mapmaker

Which is why ABS gives you the minimum possible stopping distance, automatically. It takes a very skilled driver to manipulate all four of his wheels so that they are just at the point of skidding. It would take 4 separate brake pedals...

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 15:13

First car for 17 year old daughter - Turbodog

That's what I thought...

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 15:29

First car for 17 year old daughter - BazzaBear {P}

If you include the notes at the bottom, I think this web-page:

www.4x4abc.com/4WD101/ABS_offroad.html

pretty adequately points out that the point of ABS is to allow steering while braking heavily.
It is true that in some circumstances it can allow you to achieve your shortest braking distance, but it will not increase the ability of the car to stop quicker, and on particularly slippy surfaces it can significantly increase the braking distance.

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 15:44

First car for 17 year old daughter - Turbodog

Do Rally Cars have ABS?

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 15:46

First car for 17 year old daughter - PhilW

Hope you are not suggesting that ubidenmark buys a rally car as a first car for his daughter, with or without ABS!!!

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 15:48

First car for 17 year old daughter - Turbodog

Well if he got her a Lancia Stratos it wouldn't have ABS....

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 16:59

First car for 17 year old daughter - Garethj

Excellent idea - roll cage, 4 point harness belts, fire extinguisher system and it won't look out of place with a few dents :-)

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 16:05

First car for 17 year old daughter - BazzaBear {P}

Do Rally Cars have ABS?

No, but that doesn't really prove my point. The reason for rally cars not having them is that at certain points they particularly want to lock up their wheels. Hairpin corners for instance.

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 16:11

First car for 17 year old daughter - BazzaBear {P}

Sorry, we seem to have taken this thread well off topic.
To get back, I would re-iterate that in my opinion the best car for a new driver to have is an old semi-clapped-out model, that they can get all of their mistakes out of the way in, while building up a NCD with 3rd party insurance.
I think that a more modern, cool, brand-new car is more likely to make them over confident in their driving, so possibly be more dangerous in the long run.

I do see the points made by the people who suggest newer cars as safer though. In does come down to a matter of opinion, and mine comes down on the side of an older car.
This doesn't mean that safety should be skimped on. As a general rule I don't like small cars anyway, so I'd have a mid/small hatch, and there are plenty out there with good reputations for saftey. VW Polo perhaps?

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 21:31

First car for 17 year old daughter - Wales Forester

Ford Ka, plenty about and cheap to insure/run/service, look funky enough so no 'street cred' worries.
Early models didnt have power steering, and be aware that spark plugs have been known to weld themselves into the engine if not removed for a long period.

PP

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Thu 15 Jul 2004 11:23

First car for 17 year old daughter - J Bonington Jagworth

"It would take 4 separate brake pedals"
Or four separate ABS systems! It's not that clever...

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 21:51

First car for 17 year old daughter - MichaelR

First things first. The car.

I would advise against buying a new or nearly new car for her. She WILL have incidents in the car. It's part of learning to drive. Probably nothing serious and almost certainly limited to the odd dink when parking, but a scrape down the side of a brand new car or a curbed wheel is a lot more difficult to tolerate/accept than one down the side of a £1k car. Let her get a year or twos worth of experience under her belt before you go and buy her an expensive car. Or perhaps buy her an inexpensive car and then let her get into the real world, save up, and buy herself a newer car ;)

I would recommend a decent diesel car for under £2000. Something like a Peugeot 306, Citroen Xsara, Citroen ZX, etc. Tiny little cars are poor value for money, and a huge car is probably a little too much for her, but a sensible sized car will be both good value for money, and also perhaps teach her a little more skill in terms of parking etc. Of the ones I've listed the Xsara is perhaps the best bet - it's the more modern of the cars I've listed, has airbags etc, and the SX and above also has useful comfort features like air conditioning.

If you must buy a new/nearly new car, you can do a lot better than a rancid Corsa by choosing something like a Toyota Yaris or Skoda Fabia. Both will be more reliable, and neither will be quite as adept at acheiving that 'Dull is ditchwater' experience as the Corsa.

The 1.2 Corsa does not run on LPG unless you pay for a conversion, or choose the more expensive dual fuel model.

And now onto the lessons...

Lots of people say intensive courses are bad. Sure, you pass quicker, but its been said it doesnt make you a safe and competent driver. You will not have anything like the experience of someone who spent 4 months learning conventionally and its also somewhat unlikely that a wide variety of different driving conditions (Cold, Hot, Wet, Dry, Dull etc) will be covered in an intensive course.

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Tue 13 Jul 2004 21:56

First car for 17 year old daughter - bartycrouch

If you are keen on a Corsa then I would certainly recommend buying the current model even if it second-hand. It is quick enough and a major step up from the mediocre first Corsa, but it is very dull and has the driving school car image - BSM has used them for years.

As for the intensive tuition, my main worry is that although there may be lots of hours, will your daughter meet as many different road conditions and experiences? I used to have two hours per week and alter the times and that seemed to speed up the process a bit.

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Wed 14 Jul 2004 00:00

First car for 17 year old daughter - Robin Reliant

Intensive courses have a poor reputation in the trade. I used to do them myself, and while they worked well with certain people, overall they had a poor success rate. It is an awful lot of pressure to get behind the wheel of a car for the first time knowing that you have to take the test in two weeks time, and if somebody doesn't take to driving naturally it can be a nightmare for both instructor and pupil.

The best method of shortening the time taken to learn is to start with two hours a week and when you get to know what you can take increase the lessons accordingly. Plenty of private practise in between helps no end.

I would not recommend a diesel for a learner driver. Although I used them, as do many instructors, it was purely for economic reasons. People who learn with a lazy forgiving diesel often have initial problems with the clutch when they drive a much fussier petrol car.

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Thu 15 Jul 2004 04:01

First car for 17 year old daughter - Welliesorter

I would not recommend a diesel for a learner driver. Although

I used them, as do many instructors, it was purely for

economic reasons. People who learn with a lazy forgiving diesel often

have initial problems with the clutch when they drive a much

fussier petrol car.

I'm sure you're right: I learned in diesels, which could cope with any abuse that was thrown at them, and where there was very little variation in the noise made by the engine.

I may have been helped by the fact that I had previously driven petrol cars. Also, my final lessons and test were in a current model 1.4 diesel Fiesta, which did need the clutch to be treated in the much the same way as a petrol car. The old model would put up with anything and was almost impossible to stall, however incompetent the driving.

Do any driving instructors not use diesels nowadays? There must be many people who learn in them and wonder what hit them the first time they try to drive a petrol car.

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Wed 14 Jul 2004 01:20

First car for 17 year old daughter - Avant

I too would suggest the Ford Ka - with power steering if poss. The've been around since P-reg so there should be some cheapiish ones around.

They're fun to drive - unlike any Corsa I've tried - and if she starts off enjoying driving she will take a pride in it and hopefully by safer. The Ka was my daughter's first car and she still loves driving.

Some Vauxhalls have the brake pedal much higher than the accelerator, increasing time taken to brake. I can't remember if this is true of the Corsa as well as the Astra, but it's worth checking.

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Wed 14 Jul 2004 09:07

First car for 17 year old daughter - Mark (RLBS)

In reference to ABS braking distances;

When compared to a driver braking perfectly, ABS might, in some conditions, extend the distance slightly but not much. And even then only when compared to a skilfull and practiced driver. Compared to a new driver, the ABS car is going to be quicker and safer to stop.

In reference to having ABS;

She should start without ABS so that she knows what its like ?What utter stuff and nonsense. Unless you think the tyres should be bald so that she can find out what its like to drive on those, the brakes should have no servos, and the steering should have no power assist.

Maybe she should start it with a cranking handle so that she knows what its like before she gets used to a starter motor ?

Get her the safest car you can with ABS, traction control and whatever else you can get/afford.

And if she wants to learn about skidding and the like take her to a track, don\'t try and engineer a skid on the roads by giving her an inadequate car.

In reference to getting a cheap car;

If you can afford to get her a £10,000 car and grin if she damages it, then do so. There is no virtue in owning a cheap car other than financial considerations if it does get scratched or dented.

It is true that it will probably get at least scratched, but so what. It happens.

And I don\'t understand why people say \"she\'s bound to have an accident put her in an old car\" - frankly I\'d be thinking that if she is that likely to have an accident she better be wrapped in the best car I can find.

In reference to compressed learning;

I\'ve done a fair amount of this (given and received) although not in the driving world. It pretty much depends what your goal is and what level of self-discipline is involved.

Firstly, without self-discipline then its not particularly successful. It really does require a great deal of enthusiasm, concentration and thought. Not many older people have a lot of that, and kids rarely do.

Secondly, it very much depends on your goal. Intensive learning is very good for getting someone through an exam. However, it tends to be quite temporary and shallow learning. If it is not immediately backed up with a lot of practical experience then it tends not to take hold and fades away.

You will certainly learn more about driving, become better practiced and perhaps safer by taking a slower (not neccessarily slow, just slower) approach to it.

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Wed 14 Jul 2004 08:57

First car for 17 year old daughter - ubidenmark

Thanks to every one for the responses. Most enlightening and I'll take a lot of it on board.

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Fri 16 Jul 2004 13:58

First car for 17 year old daughter - bugged {P}

i didnt bother reading most of this thread since it appeared mainly about the ABS stopping faster or not argument but seeing as it started regarding the new car for udidenmark's daughter
thats what i will talk about, my first car at 17 was a micra
a new one, I saved up for my deposit and then paid its monthly payments of £168 myself, I was given it, my dad didnt buy it for me, i worked damn hard to pay for it and each of my cars since,
I really do hate the "daddies little princess" title most people give in jealousy.

My sister has a Yaris thats shes has had since new,
my micra was a 1.0 16v that was perfect for a new driver,
it came with 3 years free insurance, was not particualy trendy
or expensive to run but it had enough "go" in it to hold its own on the motorway, if that hadn't just ruined the look of them i would have another one.

I think its great that you and your daughter have the choice of a new car, my dad was happy with me to drive around in a new car he knew all about rather than an old banger he didn't know about.

Another thing to bear in mind, my instructor had the exact same micra as me so i didnt have to get used to two lots of gear boxes and peddle positions and all teh other stuff,
if you can get free insurance that will help you both out alot as
well, as a guide at 17 it would have cost well over £1000 for me to insure my micra, i had an accident in the second and third years and didnt pay for my insurance, you wont get that with an old car.

My sister also gets this winter check think where you take it in and they check all those things like the wipers being o.k and the water bottle topped up, stuff you will probably do for your daughter whether she does it herself or not but its little things like that that are really nice when you get your first car!

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Wed 21 Jul 2004 18:53

First car for 17 year old daughter - machika

my first car

at 17 was a micra

a new one, I saved up for my deposit and

then paid its monthly payments of £168 myself, I was given

it, my dad didnt buy it for me, i worked damn

hard to pay for it and each of my cars since,

Should that be ''I wasn't given it''?

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Fri 23 Jul 2004 10:16

First car for 17 year old daughter - bugged {P}

ooooppppssss YES I WASN'T given it!

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Wed 21 Jul 2004 13:54

First car for 17 year old daughter - JohnM{P}

For that sort of money and car size, for safety look at a VW Lupo (or Seat Arosa)
see www.euroncap.com for crash results

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Wed 21 Jul 2004 16:51

First car for 17 year old daughter - Dulwich Estate

In misery mode. Nobody ever bought me a car to drive. When my daughter passes her test she won't be driving until she can afford a car and insurance. Enough is enough I've spent thousands already - time for dad to enjoy pending early retirement in manner to which he is accustomed - not in poverty.

Misery mode off now.

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Wed 21 Jul 2004 21:12

First car for 17 year old daughter - andymc {P}

I know this has been alluded to earlier in the thread, but I think it's worth repeating that NCAP scores are calculated for cars in the same class - in other words, if a modern Clio or Polo (or whatever) has the highest NCAP score in its class, it means that it's probably safer to have an accident in than a Perodua Nippa. It doesn't necessarily mean that it offers more protection in an accident than, say, a six-year-old Passat which might only score 3 NCAP stars today when compared to a modern Passat, Laguna, Mondeo etc. I'd rather be in the older Passat if I was going to roll over, or have a front/side/rear impact. Plus, as far as I remember, some of the things which differentiate between NCAP scores are pretty minor, like a five-star car having an audible reminder to fasten seatbelts where a four-star car just has a visual reminder.
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andymc

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Thu 22 Jul 2004 14:59

First car for 17 year old daughter - JohnM{P}

Very valid points re NCAP results, Andymc. Which? always make the point that size matters, and on other posts I have also pointed out that you have to look at the detail results, not just the star rating, which can be misleading, especially now there are several '5*' cars because they have a second seatbelt warning device. However, to get back to the thread, as larger cars cost more to insure, the option of an older, larger car can be very expensive... adding my 17 yr old daughter as a named driver TPF&T to a 1994ish Passat Diesel would have been almost as much as comp. in her own name on an Arosa, etc.

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Fri 23 Jul 2004 00:33

First car for 17 year old daughter - Manatee

This has been debated before and I think the answer was a Mazda RX8 wasn't it?

FWIW, 5 years ago I bought a new Ka with free insurance for my then 18 year old to drive. The only extra I was prepared to pay for was the safety pack - abs and a passenger airbag.

And again FWIW, I can't believe that it's not far better to stamp on ABS brakes (as an inexperienced driver, or anybody for that matter, might) in an emergency on a wet road than non-ABS.

The country roads where I live are as slippy as h*ll when muddy and a touch on the brakes can be enough to send you into a ditch - I see it regularly. No way was I going to save that £500 as long as I could afford it.

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Fri 23 Jul 2004 09:19

First car for 17 year old daughter - coffee_break

When we faced this point in our lives we bought a new low powered (1L) petrol Yaris as a sensible car.

We could afford to buy it, but bought it in my name, not as a gift.
This car will stay in the family as a pool car, for both of our teenagers, or as a spare when we need it.

We've told them both that if they choose to save up for a car of their own they can have first refusal to buy it at a good price, whoever comes forward with the money first. Seeing as they're both likely to be students for a few years yet, I don't suppose that'll be too soon.

Apart from our own personal reasons for buying new, the thinking is that they will be particularly careful with a new car that isn't just given to them, they'll appreciate being able to drive a nice new(ish) car, and that when it's not available to them all the time, it'll be an incentive to start saving up, and to aim for a nice car.

It's been over 12 months now, and so far so good.

Not sure if this thinking will help anyone else, but it's an alternative approach if funds allow.

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Fri 23 Jul 2004 20:18

First car for 17 year old daughter - David Horn

I learnt in a 1.6 Ford Focus, then after passing my test went straight to a 1.9TD Xsara. Clutch control? Who needs it? ;)

Seriously, even if she does lose some finesse with the clutch (I haven't, and I drive both petrol and diesel), a diesel will be a lot more forgiving in dodgy situations. How many people have sat behind a new driver who's just stalled pulling onto a roundabout / traffic lights / etc? A couple of weeks ago I was behind a Corsa who was joining a motorway from one of those tiny little sliproads - ie, 5 yards and then on the motorway. Driver stalled halfway into lane 1.

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Sat 24 Jul 2004 12:27

First car for 17 year old daughter - andymc {P}

Speaking of new drivers ....
Last week my father put my youngest brother on his insurance as a named driver to give him some lessons. After taking him out a couple of times, Dad asked me to do the same so that baby bro would get guidance from a different perspective. I was a bit dubious at first, but was assured \"He\'s actually got good car control, uses the clutch quite instinctively, he just needs the opportunity to practice.\" Fair enough, I thought.
Hmm. Uphill start outside the house involved three stalls, but he said it was the first time it had happened to him, so I put it down to a slight dose of the jitters with big bro sitting beside him. No worries mate, make sure you know what\'s behind you, carry on.

(....)

You don\'t need to floor it in second.
I know he\'s very close, but you\'re just as entitled to be on the - hey, why are you pulling in here?
You need to not floor it in second.
Easy coming up to the bend here. Easy, easy, EASY.
Try not to floor it in second.
It means there\'s a series of bends ahead, plus a junction so be aware that traffic could come out from the right. NOT YET, stay out of the ditch.
Yes, you are, but for now just keep it below 40.
That\'s fine, and just stay out of the ditch here.
That\'s the same sign I was talking about before, so take it easy going into this bend. Easy. Easy.
No worries, just put the handbrake on, take it out of gear, start it up again and go on when it\'s safe.
It\'s cos you\'ve left the handbrake on.
Try not to floor it in second.
Just ease off here, those chevrons mean it\'s a sharp bend,
Well, he\'s a lot bigger than you. That\'s why I wanted you to take it easy. No harm done.
I know he shouldn\'t.
Just keep out of the ditch a bit.
*STOP*
Because you always give way to traffic that\'s already on the roundabout.
Yes, you do.
Yes, always.
No, never. Well, maybe in France.

Well, that was okay. There are a few things you need to work on. What do you think they are?
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andymc

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Sat 24 Jul 2004 12:37

First car for 17 year old daughter - Adam {P}

Oh those memories have come flooding back...those were the days.
Adam

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Sat 24 Jul 2004 15:35

First car for 17 year old daughter - BazzaBear {P}

Do you think it was entirely him or partly your nervousness making you more picky?
A few years ago my sister came up with the fantastic idea of me teaching her to drive in my car, she'd pay for the insurance on it.
Was forced to buy myself a more powerful car so she couldn't get insured!
I think I would be a truly awful instructor.

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Sat 24 Jul 2004 18:56

First car for 17 year old daughter - andymc {P}

I don\'t think I got nervous until the truck came round the bend at us, halfway over onto our side of the narrow mountain road. Even if it had been me driving, I would have had a mini-heart attack at that point anyway, but baby bro (understandably) panicked and waggled the wheel left/right repeatedly in the space of half a second, and hit the throttle rather than the brakes - that was the pink fluffy dice moment. I\'m still not sure how we got through, especially with the rock wall about half an inch from the door mirror on my side! But most of the time I felt pretty calm, admittedly easier to achieve when it wasn\'t my car that was driving with the nearside wheels just off the road and being lashed by hedgerows. The *STOP* moment was when I realised he was about to happily sail across a roundabout, which would have resulted in a large Merc estate about to plough into his door. He was convinced the Merc should have stopped for him rather than the other way round. The rest was (mainly) just guidance - like try not to floor it in second! - because he really gunned it every time.

Having said all that, I was conscious of the possibility that he might feel intimidated by big bro \"judging\" his performance - I think he probably felt more nervous than he expected to. I did try to be as relaxed and measured as possible, and not to appear brusque or annoyed, but I\'m sure there are still imprints of my fingers on the passenger door grab handle from the few really hairy moments and I guess he might have picked up on that. To be honest, I think I probably learned more that day than he did.
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andymc

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Sat 24 Jul 2004 22:44

First car for 17 year old daughter - Rosanbo

I didn't read half this thread, and I know some have allready said what I am going to say.

I think NCAP is important
I think a low power to weight ratio is important
I think it should be second hand.

My suggestion, therefore, is a second hand 1.0 Yaris, I think they were introduced around 2000 so it won't be that old anyway. *unless you do your homework and you find a free insurance deal on a new car, then it might make sense to go for a new one.

Watch out for imports you can spot them easily because they don't have the model code (GL GLS CDX etc) on the wing mirrors, sometimes an import *will* have this on the wing mirrors but the letters won't be the same, Toyota use a thick squashy seethrough gel type of letter (look at the ones in the showroom) an import trying to look official will just have silver paper letters. Also an import often has a "luna" or "sol" badge on the back of the car. Nothing wrong per-se with imports just as long as the price is a bit lower.

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