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All - Following Europe, warning. - HGV ~ P Valentine

German city to remove thousands of parking spaces and impose 12mph speed limit (msn.com)

Following our keenness to follow Europe in parts or whole I thought I would share this article, it is also a warning that if the green oriented/planet saving people ever get any real power then could this be a sign of the future they would like for us all ? In my humble opinion it is beyond ridiculous, and for obvious reasons will make life more expensive for us all, both directly and indirectly. We have all been affected by green issues hitting our purse, so is this a bridge too far ?

All - Following Europe, warning. - Gibbo_Wirral

Its all a bit "tin foil hat" thinking but with all the expansion in cycle lanes in the UK are they preparing for us plebs to get on our bikes, with car ownership back to being only for the wealthy or those with the means to park & charge up their EVs?

All - Following Europe, warning. - Engineer Andy

Its all a bit "tin foil hat" thinking but with all the expansion in cycle lanes in the UK are they preparing for us plebs to get on our bikes, with car ownership back to being only for the wealthy or those with the means to park & charge up their EVs?

Not really, given that London Mayor khan heads up the C40 group of mayors, whose goals are to stop all air transportation, car ownership, the overwhelming majority of meat eating by humans, etc, etc, rather like that 'consultation document' by some influential lot influencing whatever politicians/governments are around at the time.

Funny how rich people can easily avoid bans (the air transport one doesn't apply to private jets), and I suspect the ban on cars only applies to non-EVs, and sales of them are now in decline because of the expense and other significant factors that deter those with less money.

Many councils are now literally sectioning off roads for cycle lane that actually increase - not decrease - congestion because vehicles cannot easily overtake due to less room or no second lane.

Most cyclists either avoid such roads because of the danger generally, pollution and/or the chance of getting a puncture/coming off due to poorly maintained kerb areas and roadways.

All too often councillors and governments have grand plans for new cycle and pedestrian facilities, but like so many public sector projects, they go way over budget (because they are poorly thought out and managed) and rarely, if ever, have sufficient funds for adequate long term maintenance (plus the same mismanagement).

Most of these projects bring little benefit to those they are supposed to be for, but are good for short term benefit (normally around election time) for the virtue-signalling politicians and officials, and very lucrative for the firms / organisations involved in the projects. Often a large disregard for ethics as well as the public's money, and one of the reasons I left the Construction Industry.

All - Following Europe, warning. - FP

"...the C40 group of mayors, whose goals are to stop all air transportation, car ownership, the overwhelming majority of meat eating by humans, etc, etc..."

I hadn't heard of the C40 group, but did some research. I cannot find anything to support your claims about this organisation's aims. In any case, it would be odd for cities to concern themselves specifically with air transport or human diet, which have little direct effect on the cities themselves.

"... I suspect the ban on cars only applies to non-EVs..."

Press reports say "all cars" are to be banned from Hanover. As the city is planning to remove some or all traffic lights, that suggests there will be no exception for EVs.

All - Following Europe, warning. - HGV ~ P Valentine

Hanover will remove nearly all street-side parking and introduce 12mph speed limit in a bid to banish cars and turn the city into 'a place to party and stroll about' (msn.com)

All - Following Europe, warning. - barney100

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, and sales of them are now in decline because of the expense and other significant factors that deter those with less money.

According to the Prime Minister sales of EVs are increasing so what is the real story here?

All - Following Europe, warning. - Bromptonaut

Not really, given that London Mayor khan heads up the C40 group of mayors, whose goals are to stop all air transportation, car ownership, the overwhelming majority of meat eating by humans, etc, etc, rather like that 'consultation document' by some influential lot influencing whatever politicians/governments are around at the time.

Source please.

I don't mean the existence of C40 which is well documented but the supposed demands.

Edited by Bromptonaut on 21/09/2023 at 21:03

All - Following Europe, warning. - FP

"Source please."

As I sort of implied in my post above, there won't be any. It is such an absurd idea I don't believe there is anything reliable to support it. I think the person who posted that has allowed his conspiracy theories to spread a little too far.

Happy to retract my words if proved wrong.

All - Following Europe, warning. - De Sisti

It won't happen. We're not in the EU. ;-)

All - Following Europe, warning. - galileo

It won't happen. We're not in the EU. ;-)

Yet!

All - Following Europe, warning. - De Sisti

It won't happen. We're not in the EU. ;-)

Yet!

Looking forward to it (again). :-)

All - Following Europe, warning. - skidpan

whose goals are to stop all air transportation, car ownership, the overwhelming majority of meat eating by humans

I have not read such a load of laughable nonsense for years.

Lets think what that would do

  • All the airlines would be grounded leaving entire fleets of expensive hardware doing nothing yet still having to be paid for. The airlines would fail, the banks would fail, governments would fail and we would be back to the dark ages.
  • Pretty much the same as above for car ownership.
  • As a species we have been eating meat for many thousands of years. There are alternative ways of producing protein but it could not happen overnight.

Its not going to happen.

All - Following Europe, warning. - Sofa Spud

whose goals are to stop all air transportation, car ownership, the overwhelming majority of meat eating by humans

I have not read such a load of laughable nonsense for years.

Lets think what that would do

  • All the airlines would be grounded leaving entire fleets of expensive hardware doing nothing yet still having to be paid for. The airlines would fail, the banks would fail, governments would fail and we would be back to the dark ages.
  • Pretty much the same as above for car ownership.
  • As a species we have been eating meat for many thousands of years. There are alternative ways of producing protein but it could not happen overnight.

Its not going to happen.

As a species we've been around for the best part of 1,000,000 years. We've managed without motor cars and aircraft for all but about 120 of 1,000,000 years!

Edited by Sofa Spud on 21/09/2023 at 10:30

All - Following Europe, warning. - Falkirk Bairn

>>We've managed without motor cars and aircraft for all but about 120 of 1,000,000 years!

for say 1 million years a few thousand, here, 10K there etc etc managed to live as hunter gatherers, progressing to basic farming.

How on earth are 70 million in the UK going to live without access to our new basic necessities we increasingly rely on for say 200 years.

I am afraid a cottage in the middle of nowhere, 2 cows, some sheep and a small plot of land to grow oats, wheat, veg etc etc would not be viable these days.

All - Following Europe, warning. - galileo

I am afraid a cottage in the middle of nowhere, 2 cows, some sheep and a small plot of land to grow oats, wheat, veg etc etc would not be viable these days.

You wouldn't get planning permission, would you? The idea is popular among some in the USA but they usually set up in the wilds and deter outside interference with an a***nal of small arms etc.

So no, not feasible here, :-(

All - Following Europe, warning. - madf

With medieval farming (no tractors or artificial fertilisers) the UK could at best feed 15Million. The other 50 million will have to starve. (or more likely riot and overthrow the Government!:-)

All - Following Europe, warning. - Bolt

With medieval farming (no tractors or artificial fertilisers) the UK could at best feed 15Million. The other 50 million will have to starve. (or more likely riot and overthrow the Government!:-)

All very well talking of what we used to do, but they grew up living that way, I have doubts many would survive the way they used to and most would probably die younger than they do now

opinions are, or seem to be, we are advancing technically too rapidly, regardless of global warming, which back then they wouldn`t even know what that meant let alone do something about it, which is going to be impossible anyway, but we should adjust to it and get on with our lives instead of people keep telling us what we should and shouldn`t do, as much as people like doing so....

All - Following Europe, warning. - Terry W

It is estimated that mankind requires ~2 planets to provide for our consumption and absorb waste. This is estimated to increase to ~3 by 2050 due to population growth and as those countries currently lagging western consumption levels seek to catch up.

This is fundamentally unsustainable. It will only end in one of two ways:

  • evolving a society which intelligently limits consumption, uses green energy, recycles waste etc.
  • catastrophically - it may be extreme climate impacts, or widespread conflict over water and resources, or some combination of the two

Those over 50-60 in prosperous developed countries can probably live the remainder of their lives relatively unaffected by all this, despite a catastrophic prognosis. Children and grandchildren will curse their memory.

An intelligent response is creation of a sustainable future. Technology advances aside, car ownership, air travel, excess consumption, will be a casualty. Investment in home insulation, green energy, environmental efficiencies will take their place.

Not an attractive proposition for those who were born post war and enjoyed the opportunity for unbridled profligacy and excess in the 1960-1980s limited only by the size of the bank account. Nonetheless - a sad new reality!!

All - Following Europe, warning. - John F

As a species we've been around for the best part of 1,000,000 years.

Homo sapiens has only been around for a couple of hundred thousand years or so, and only started talking to each other about 50,000 years ago.

We've managed without motor cars and aircraft for all but about 120 of 1,000,000 years!

As anyone who has travelled in the African and Asian hinterlands will know, millions still do.

All - Following Europe, warning. - Speedbird 747

Any car owner who votes Labour or Green, need their heads tested. You are voting yourself out of your car.

All - Following Europe, warning. - Andrew-T

Any car owner who votes Labour or Green, need their heads tested. You are voting yourself out of your car.

Perhaps, but the car is a very large contributor to the series of social problems we keep discussing - plus the underlying problem of a population too big for the space it occupies. All the attempts to alleviate things - diesel instead of petrol, electric instead of fossil fuel - are aimed at carrying on adding to the problem !

All - Following Europe, warning. - Metropolis.

I am not convinced there are too many cars. The problem is we don't build enough roads, and when we do, they don't have enough lanes. Governments of all colours appear obsessed with making motoring as inconvenient as possible. Blocking roads in neighbourhoods, halving road capacity by adding a bus lane, charging an entrance fee to major cities, charging people to park on the high street, the list goes on. We speak so often of the economic benefits of allowing people to get from A to B quicker. Does it ever dawn on these people that when the public are given the choice free from artificial hindrance, most will choose the car, and maybe if you have to keep articifially propping up the alternative, it's not very good alternative?

The most successful country on the planet is car-focused, says it all.

All - Following Europe, warning. - Andrew-T

I am not convinced there are too many cars. The problem is we don't build enough roads, and when we do, they don't have enough lanes..

There may be too many cars for the road-space that we have, but the construction of a fair number of motorways and bypasses has not solved that problem, as you suggest. They may solve a local difficulty, but usually create a new one further down the road. Most road travel is between conurbations which mostly are unable to absorb the number of cars visiting. That's the main reason why shoppers prefer to visit peripheral retail parks instead of city centres.

Most constraints on cars now are for health reasons as much as for relieving congestion.

Edited by Andrew-T on 25/09/2023 at 23:25

All - Following Europe, warning. - Metropolis.

"Any car owner who votes Labour or Green, need their heads tested. You are voting yourself out of your car."

Agree 100%. Sadly, was was pointed out to me on here earlier, even the 5 year extension to petrol and diesel cars is pretty hopeless, just delaying the pain marginally and even then the manufacturers will be under huge pressure to sell electric only, so are the Conservatives a great deal better? I suspect if this was put to the Conservative party membership, we would not bother with net-zero, but it won't be put to them like other parties do, so the Conservative Central HQ will continue making stupid policies.

It is the problem with such broad-church political parties, they have so many policies to try to get every kind of voter, that a net-zero policy slips through the net. The great thing about referendums (so long as they are followed, at least until the next one) is it gives a real opportunity for the electorate to make its views known on a specific topic.

Edited by Metropolis. on 25/09/2023 at 21:33

All - Following Europe, warning. - Terry W

We've managed without motor cars and aircraft for all but about 120 of 1,000,000 years!

As anyone who has travelled in the African and Asian hinterlands will know, millions still do.

And they frequently have no running water, sewage systems, live under corrugated steel roofs, survive on a few $$ a day. It is an observation, not a credible reason for personal car ownership.

Personal transport is at the beginning of the end. It makes no economic or environmental sense to have expensive individual vehicles, each weighing in excess of a 1000kg+, transporting a payload of 60-200kg, which sits idle for 20+ hours a day.

The future requires intelligent solutions - or the past will come to haunt not guide us.

Look forward 20 years and speculate - eg: individual car ownership rapidly declining, on demand autonomous pods via an app, progressive localisation of essential facilities (health, schools), greater alignment of work and home locations reducing futile commutes

This will not happen suddenly but progressively, and affect larger cities first where the benefits will be more evident. I can think of no positive scenario in which ICE ownership increases with direct negative impacts on congestion and pollution.

A simplistic example - online grocery shopping - a single van doing (say) 50 deliveries a day removes up to 50 private vehicle journeys from the roads.

All - Following Europe, warning. - martin.mc

Modern day doomsayers have been predicting environmental disasters since the 1960s and continue to do so. Pollution, population, hole in the ozone layer, to name but a few. In the early 1970s, climate experts said we were heading towards another Ice Age and half the world was going to starve because of the shorter growing season. Shaking in my shoes (Not).

Edited by martin.mc on 23/09/2023 at 17:21

All - Following Europe, warning. - madf

The hole in the ozone layer was real and solved by human action (banning some refrigerants),

World famine was real - India could not feed itself. The Green Revolution solved that issue.

To suggest either were imagined is to rewrite reality.

Man made problems require man made solutions.

All - Following Europe, warning. - Andrew-T

Man made problems require man made solutions.

That doesn't mean those solutions are readily available - or acceptable, for political reasons !

All - Following Europe, warning. - HGV ~ P Valentine

It is not really a case of spreading it for malicious purposes or to endorse or attack it ~ but informing people of stuff I read about as I have an ongoing interest in ideas that gov around the world come up with.

I wont pretend that I hate the practice of making motoring more expensive, or my equal dislike of electric vehicles ( see comments on charging in terrace housing, and tower blocks in cities ).

But can you imagine if del vehicles had to do this silly speed ? HGV drivers can already do a 15 hour day and that is travelling at 30 mph in cities, how many deliveries will get done if that is reduced to 12. How much longer are people going to have to wait for a bus if it is reduced to 12 mph. The list is endless, but 1 of many examples of how being greener may end up costing us all, both time and money we just cannot afford.

Also, how many will keep their licenses if the police or cameras start to issue speeding points for going over this ? I agree we are not in Europe, and as such cannot be forced to adopt their ideas, but it would be foolish to think that our gov ( lab and cons ) are not influenced by what Europe does or does not do, esp Germany. You might remember that the driving regulations we have for hgv only came in because Us and Germany wanted it when no one else did, but there is no sign at all of it changing.

I hope and prey that that this idea does not spread ( and I am not joking ), but I have no faith in any uk gov to ignore Europe and think for themselves.

Edited by HGV ~ P Valentine on 25/09/2023 at 11:23

All - Following Europe, warning. - badbusdriver

But can you imagine if del vehicles had to do this silly speed ? HGV drivers can already do a 15 hour day and that is travelling at 30 mph in cities, how many deliveries will get done if that is reduced to 12.

Current average speed in London ranges from 8-16 mph depending on time of day, so I can't see a 12mph limit making much difference.

How much longer are people going to have to wait for a bus if it is reduced to 12 mph.

What an odd question. Buses run to a schedule and bus stops have timetables. So, assuming the bus is running according to schedule, people won't have to wait any longer for a bus than before.

Also, how many will keep their licenses if the police or cameras start to issue speeding points for going over this ?

That will surely depend on whether or not they obey the speed limit. Not rocket science is it?

All - Following Europe, warning. - Terry W

How much longer are people going to have to wait for a bus if it is reduced to 12 mph.

What an odd question. Buses run to a schedule and bus stops have timetables. So, assuming the bus is running according to schedule, people won't have to wait any longer for a bus than before.

If (say) three buses leave the bus garage each hour, irrespective of the speed of the bus three will still leave.

It is of course the journey time that may (or may not) increase - depends whether buses in urban areas ever do more than 20mph.

Even if they do it will only be for a small part of the journey. The rest is spent stopped at stops, traffic lights, junctions etc just like everyone else.