You could also put a completely different spin on the article. Bangle tells BMW to stick their job after constantly having his designs compromised by unimaginative, corporate suits - but agrees to stay to oversee forthcoming launch (presumably for handsome golden handshake).
Disclaimer. I don't care for BMW one way or the other, and I'd never heard of Bangle before this thread.
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Agreed.
The article doesn't say he's been fired. That's one interpretation, but there are plenty of others that fit the same set or words.
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Dalglish, it isn't 'mutter in the gutter press'. By this time next year Chris Bangle will have ceased to be head of design in Munich. The nature of appointments such as this is that he will, in all likelihood, relinquish lead responsibility for styling some months before that.
Whether we like his creations is an irrelevance at the end of the day. Like anyone else he will be judged on the sales figures. As others in this thread have already suggested, the non-Bangle models are the ones generally bringing home the bucks at the moment.
Britain is one of BMW's most important markets, and the 7 series was not well received when it was first shown to dealers. One very well-known figure in that community compared it to a Lexus. And he wasn't just talking about the styling: the infernal i-Drive system is universally disliked. One dealer principal I spoke to told me that he lets potential customers drive the car first and only if they like it does he bother with an i-Drive demo.
It's common knowledge that a softened version of the 7 is due this year and that some people in Munich are not comfortable with the 5. Bangle is a proud man who has stuck to his guns, but corporate bravery extends only so far...
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It's common knowledge that a softened version of the 7 is due this year and that some people in Munich are not comfortable with the 5. Bangle is a proud man who has stuck to his guns, but corporate bravery extends only so far...
I am surprised that their corporate bravery ever extended as far as letting him loose on their saloons.
BMWs are status-cars, not just fashion items, so their designs need some longevity if they are going to satisfy their customers needs. Mercedes does that very well: at 5 or 10 or 20 years old, a Mercedes still looks like a car with status, and it alwys still recognisably a Merc.
BMWs haven't done so well on that front. Yes, they are recognisably BMWs even when debadged, but their designs haven't tended to age as well as Mercs. A ten-year-old BMW tends to just look old -- like a Ford, a lot of its status seems to come from its newness.
I can see why BMW wanted to rethink their design language, but it seems to me that they made a fundamental mistake in allowing that language to be such a detailed one -- Bangle's lines are simply too fussy. Designs which rely for their impact on detail tend to age more rapidly than those which rely on line.
The most successfully enduring designs seem to me to be those which combine a distictive approach to lines (such as Jaguar or Mercedes, or even various Audi and incarnations of VW Golf) with a few distictive bits of detailing which carry through the generations of design.
Bangle's designs just don't fit those criteria -- they look more like the sort of high-impact designs which Mazda is commissioning than something suitable for a marque which aspires to produce classics.
It's a bit like the little black dress which every woman has somewhere in her wardrobe: a fashionable one with lots of detail has a very short shelf-life, but a simpler design can still be worn for years. Maybe BMW needs to follow Ford's lead in getting more women involved in its design process? (No, I am not looking for a job!)
Claire
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An update on this one.
News in the automotive trade press this week that Bangle has indeed relinquished lead responsibility for styling, moving 'upstairs' in Munich to a new title which means his front line role in the look of individual models has ended.
I'll stick to my guns and say that a year from now he won't be there.
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No-one can doubt the integrity of BMW's engineering prowess. However, they have utterly dropped the ball when it comes to how their cars look. If the design is indicative of the corporate culture at BMW then how the hell did these designs go from clay to production?
It doesn't say a lot for the ability of senior management to affect the overall design.
I'd go as far to say BMW has never had a 'design' language, perhaps the prettiest car they ever did was the shark nosed front and large glass expanse of the 1600, way, way back. Problem is looking at that, it has aged, I mean really aged.
I do agree with the person that said that the continuity of simple lines creates design masterpieces. E-type Jag and Citroen DS.
Today's design language is very retro-based on the post modernist era, Audi cottoned onto this very quickly with the TT and also the reskinned A4. Very clean lines and minimal fuss.
And that everything that any BMW is not.
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I think it's good of BMW to take a new approach when everyone else is turning out frankly dull motors, even the new Focus isn't as radical as the first one was when it was launched. Can anyone remember how far out the design looked?
Blue
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Car design has been in the doldrums ever since the 'teardrop' shape was discovered to have the lowest drag co-efficient in the early 1980s. The mass production process and economies of scale also lead to designers having to appeal to a broader base of customers and so the lowest common denominator in terms of looks. 'Ugly' is the new 'exciting' in terms of looks, is that because no-one really knows how to design a good looking mass manufactured car anymore?
Look at the new Golf, not really much of an breakaway from the previous model, why? Because they need to sell 600,000 a year !!!
How many!
Thinking back even twenty years there was some good looking everyday cars on the road, can we say that today?
How many people own a Multipla admit they are dog's bottom ugly and yet say 'But it's so functional.'
Interesting car designs do exist if you have £40,000 in the bank.
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BMW 5 series (new one ) looks sharper than any other medium exec on road.
Mazda RX8 - looks genuinely original
Lotus Elise - fantastic shape
Renault Avantime - Actually a very well intergrated piece of design, forgiving the fact the car is a bit poor.
Alfa 156, 147 & GTV - all original great looking designs.
Fiat Coupe - still an unusual shape - but not ugly
Ford Puma - brilliant piece of fresh outlooking design
All cars available under £40k that actually everyday affordable cars that look great.
Please tell me which cars 20 years ago in the mainstream looked that great, because as far as i know there werent that many?....
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Agree totally with all save the 5 series. Dull dull dull. Frankly it's about as far away (design wise) from the others you mention as you can get.
Slab sided and square - precisely the sort of car Volvo used to get stick for. It's amazing what that BMW badge does for people's appreciation of design.
Judging by the way the owners of new "5s" on our fleet were drooling over a newly delivered "used" 540 this morning, I'd say it will go the way of the 7. Great car, but you still have to look at it.
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"please tell me which cars 20 years ago in the mainstream looked that great ............."
How about Alfa GTV, Alfasud and, especially, Alfasud Sprint Veloce ....
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Fair point - but they werent better than the ones nowadays - just equally nice for their time.
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Some more mainstream cars from the early 1980s.
Hmm, 20 years ago, 1984.
Lancia Delta Integrale
Audi 80
Audi Quattro - Audi started the whole aerodynamic thing with the 100, first to do it, first to get out of it.
Rover SD1 especially the Vitesse.
Peugeot 205
Peugeot 504 Coupe.
Ford Capri
VW Golf Mk1
VW Scirocco
Saab 99 & 900
Citroen BX
Nissan 280 ZX
Mercedes 280 CE
And the really outlandish - A DeLorean DMC-12.
The new BMW 5-series a design masterpiece? Please. BMW had one design ethos way back in the early 1970s with the 'Neu Klasse' which you can see in every BMW right up to the Bangle-bodged cars like the new 7 and 5.
In terms of classics, I can think of two BMW cars from the late 70s onwards, the M1 as a lesson on how NOT to make a supercar and the 635CSL (the CSL bit is vital for rarity) for sheer good looks.
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Were those 80s cars supposed to be good looking then? :-)
Fortunately I can't remeber that far back, so I have to ask, why pick those cars for the list? Were they ground breaking designs in their day? Or just generally thought to be attractive? I'll admit that for their time, the MK1 Golf and the audis probably were quite nice...
Blue
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Fairly decent designs but i cant say they are any better than cars designed today - i mean what was so great about the BX, the Saab 900, Scirocco, Rover SD1 (hints of daytona my a***), Lancia Delta? I remember them, and they werent that great. Good, but not better than now.
My view is that design is not better or worse than 20 years ago, and the cars from then are neither better or worse. I never called the 5 series a masterpiece - i called it a good design. None of the above were masterpieces - i mean come on - the Rover SD1, the 280zx (of the 80's - are you kidding).
The thing with design is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
As said before, i dont own a BMW nor am i biased. I like all cars, but sorry 3500S you just sound bitter as you are so pro-rover and so anti bmw you hate pretty much anything they do.
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All these cars look different. You might not like them, I'm glad you don't, cars should provoke a reaction. A car that looks 'nice' fails to make any statement at all really, wouldn't you agree? I deliberately picked cars that looked different just like the new BMW 5 does, thing is, are they ugly cars?
A modern Passat looks very similar to an A4 and a Mondeo. I think I just showed that cars looked different then. A Cavalier looked different to a Sierra. A SD1 looked different to a BMW 5.
There's no need to throw your rattle out of your pram with the usual accusation. I simply listed some cars in the 1980s that looked different.
So how exactly is this a pro-Rover thread? Why? Because BMW haven't really produced anything earth shatteringly different? I don't think many people would disagree. The 'Neu Klasse' was exactly that, look at a 1600 & 2, 2000 & 2 and then the first 3s and 5s, they evolved. Look it up but they hung on to that until Bangle turned up.
Sales of Bangle-ised cars are down. Fact. I'm not bitter, BMW engineering is superb but their cars well, they certainly look 'different' now don't they?
And the Ferrari Daytona was part of the inspiration for the SD1 along with the Citroen CM.
austinrover.mg-rover.org/images/sd1p_2.jpg
Spot the difference.
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I think some of them are ugly cars, but as i said beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and i never threw my rattle out of the pram, just reobserving the reasoning behind your response.
The 3 & 5 series evolved because the design was so good, and so agreeable to most that it was sensible to evolve for a business decision but also because they are damn handsome cars. Beaaring in mind the 1600 and 2000 series were fresh is because they were brand new models. Thats the thing with brand new models - they look different to evolved models.....
Regards to the new bangle designs, i have to agree they are different, but i personally like them all. Even think they turned the Z3 into the Z4 and into something half decent. In years to come i really believe they will be seen as fresh designs that will look pretty good.
The one disappointment i have of new cars v older cars is that they used to make stronger and better built interiors rather than monotone plastics....
By the way - 'Spot the Difference'? what between a Maserati Bora and Khylami (i think) and a Rover SD1? Erm, the Maserati's are desirable?....
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"A modern Passat looks very similar to an A4 and a Mondeo. I think I just showed that cars looked different then. A Cavalier looked different to a Sierra. A SD1 looked different to a BMW 5."
Well if that's the case, I think BMW are doing something very right with their new range, as a 5 series now looks *nothing like* a Mondeo, Passat etc.
By your own admission the most of the rest of the car market is drab and very similar, BMW are the only ones to stick their neck out with something a bit different and yet people slate them. The only other company that I can think of off the top of my head who are doing anything different is Nissan with the new Primera and Micra. Ford did it a few years ago with the radical Focus design, but now everybody has copied it...
Blue
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So.... in this thread we think BMW designs are too off the wall and different.
In the new Golf thread we think it is bland and too like the old one, in style terms at least.
Can we make our minds up please?
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"Can we make our minds up please?"
I'm reminded of the spoof job advert that asked for an "individualistic team-player".
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People want their cars to look "good", does that have to mean "different", whatever that conjures up?
Bangle's designs are different. Some say "brave", this I take to mean in the Sir Humphrey of "Yes Minister" sense.
Assuming that BMW are still in business to sell as many cars as possible, Mr Bangle's designs are threatening that objective and the matter has been dealt with.
Hence the thread title aptly sums it up.
By the way, the Z4 had to be an improvement - the Z3 could scarcely have been worse.
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"the Z3 could scarcely have been worse"
On a single-make website I go to, the Z3 gets more scorn than almost any other vehicle (especially in 4 cyl form).
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Assuming that BMW are still in business to sell as many cars as possible, Mr Bangle's designs are threatening that objective and the matter has been dealt with. Hence the thread title aptly sums it up.
steve s: see thread
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=19...2
which shows sales figures for the new model which has been gradually rolled out across different markets.
bmw and buyers seem to be perfectly happy with the new 5.
i am not a lawyer but in my personal opinion, the thread title could be construed to be slander or libel.
it states something as fact when it is referring to a story which is apparently no more than rumour mill.
if bmw or bangle get to see it, they might want to take action!
if and when i have enuf money maybe i will buy a 2nd hand e60.
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i am not a lawyer but in my personal opinion, the thread title could be construed to be slander or libel.
??? form your own opinion - see if any of above thread fits this
the dictionary.com defines
slander:
Oral communication of false statements injurious to a person's reputation.
A false and malicious statement or report about someone.
libel:
A false publication, as in writing, print, signs, or pictures, that damages a person's reputation.
The act of presenting such material to the public.
The written claims presented by a plaintiff in an action at admiralty law or to an ecclesiastical court.
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If you tried hard enough I bet you could find a libelous statement in every thread on this and other forums.
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Dalglish,
1.6% up on the same period for all cars! In a year when you launch a new flagship!
I can assure you that hopes were higher than that (alledgedly, if you wish for your lawyer friends).
Overall figures will be good for BMW - one word, MINI! A not so "different" design but let's leave that aside.
Insiders tell me, numbers are well down on projection.
My own experience tells me - that we have been able to get 530ds with next to no waiting. Unheard of for the launch of a new 5.
Remember last time? You couldn't get the then popular 523s & 528s within a year!
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The figure of 928,151 produced vehicles is for BMW brands only i.e. it does not include Mini (or Rolls Royce for that matter). If you add these additional marques then the total for BMW group in 2003 was 1,105,000 vehicles representing an increase of 4,5% compared to the previous year. The total sales for the 5 series worldwide of 185,481 in 2003 were 7,6% higher than in 2002.
You can get a 5 series delivered reasonably quickly these days as BMW have increased the production capacity. The notorious delivery delays in the past on the 3 and 5 series were frankly absurd for what are volume products.
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Seeing as I started this thread originally, instead of firing Chris Bangle, he has been promoted to head of overall BMW design, which includes Rolls Royce And Mini!!!!!
www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=6853
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Marvellous quote in that story, Dude:
"You spend an hour with him, and you absolutely understand the 7-Series,"
Now, how many buyers have managed that?
An excellent point was made earlier on in this thread (and profuse apologies for not looking up who it was - you know who you are!). Fussy, detailed designs generally don't wear well. I just get the feeling that a few years from now the Bangle cars will be looked on as curiosities rather than ground-breaking trendsetters.
But only time will tell.
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"You spend an hour with him, and you absolutely understand the 7-Series," Now, how many buyers have managed that?
Whent the 7 was launched, one BMW dealer insisted on giving 48-hour test drives. They (correctly) felt that customers didn't really appreciate the car until day 2.
Not quite an hour with CB himself, but enough to have made me want to buy one except for two small problems - (i) too large for my garage and (ii) too large for my wallet.
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