Help ! all you technoids in the know with this....
I need to convert a 1987 Range Rover Clasic 3.5l EFi Auto Estate which is used for on road and off road response work and special events (Ambulance). The mileage is now just on 60000 (gen with FSH).
The general terrain is over beach and some moderate rocks on the shoreline. Dunes are required occasionally but must be taken into account.
After contacting a numer of suppliers they all give a wide variety of opinions and obviously prices. They are keen especially to recommend a single point system but some suppliers insist a multi-point is mandatory due to my kind of specialised work and reliability issues.
The vehicle is in top condition, uprated suspension, BF Goodrich A/T tyres, twin battery electircal system and seperate emergency equipment electrics and very well looked after.
Reliability is a major factor but must be weighted against cost as all the work is voluntary (and out-with my main hospital job) and the risk of any potential engine damage from an inappropriate conversion.
Space in the luggage compartment is minimal due to the specialist kit carried so under chassis tanks are mandatory.
As I am sure you can understand my speciality is medicine and not mechanics, hence seeking your advice.
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Hello ORM
Might be worth calling Ken at NW Autogas on 0151 454 1762 he drives an LPG one of these himself and has converted many others, he tends to specialise in V6/V8 applications and seems very clued on the matter of conversions especially RRs.
as ever
Mark
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I had a 1996 4 litre Jeep Cherokee which I had converted with a single point system and it performed well. I can't believe an 87 RR will be any more complicated so I would be happy with a single point. The installer said that Grand Cherokees needed a multi-point due to the engine management system. Again, I would have thought the EFi on an 87 vehicle would be fine. I think you'll be looking at around £2k for a proper job but under chassis tanks may cost more.
My main advice is to get it done by a member of the LPGA. Which? magazine did a report a while back on LPG conversions and all the problem ones were from non-LPGA approved installers. My only concern would be the quality and sealing of the electronics in an after market installation if you are going to use the vehicle on the beach. As you are probably aware, it can be amazing how quickly things corrode in regular contact with salt water. I'm an Aux. Coastguard and our Toyota Hi-Lux gets used mainly on the beach and I wouldn't want to buy it. The chassis members seem to be half full of salty sand which no amount of hosing can get out. The previous Land Rover literally fell apart underneath. I hope you go mad with the Dinitrol regularly!
There are loads of RR forums (fora?) around. Try Yahoo or MSN for a start. I'd ask the same question there and find out if anyone uses LPG vehicles for off-roading. If it can stand that, then it's a good recommendation.
I'd be interested in what you find out and what you do so please keep us posted.
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Just wondering, WHY do you want to convert? Do you really do enough miles to justify the cost of conversion by the saving in cost per mile?
You have a 16 year old car that has done 60k miles. If you've done these miles, then that's not very many per annum! At that age, it's probably not worth much, and you run the risk of a failure costing more than it's worth.
LPG is quite hard (relatively) to get hold of. Is the cost saving worth this extra effort?
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LPG is not hard to get hold of, relatively or otherwise. An LPG outlet is opened every day. Nearly all the BP stations have the pumps. There are other benefits of converting besides the cost of the gas. (Half the price of petrol). It burns very cleanly which is good for the engine oil and the environment. Also, with the prodigious thirst of a Rangie I would go for it especially if you are planning on keeping the vehicle for some time.
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I agree V8man. I had no difficulty in getting LPG a year ago, and as you say, many more garages are supplying it now.
BTW, don't forget an LPG conversion by an approved installer will increase the value of the vehicle. The installer reckoned that the £2k conversion on my Jeep increased its value by £1k. He had no trouble selling converted vehicles at this sort of premium. This was confirmed 3 months later when my dearly beloved wrote the thing off and the assessor agreed with the installer and added £1k to the payout.
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The relative availability of LPG depends on where it is being driven to and from, and should be considered as a part of the convenience and cost of the conversion.
2k conversion; 3 months later written off for 1k. So to have made money from that little venture you needed to have saved 1k on fuel. £300 per month. That's a lot.
Not disputing the potential validity of your posts, but there is another side which must be considered in a cost-benefit analysis of the proposed conversion.
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60k on this vehicle is about 3,500 miles per year.
If you're converting to LPG, you might save 50% in fuel costs. Based on 20 mpg, that works out at 175 gallons per year, or £612.50 per year or an LPG saving of £300. That means it'll take roughly six years to pay for itself, assuming
a. the vehicle lasts that long and
b. the government keeps the taxation on LPG as low as it has until now.
Even though I think the risks of conversion harming the vehicle or reducing its functionality are very small, I am uncovninced that there is any substantial benefit in investing £2k in a sixteen year old vehicle on the basis of that kind of return.
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>> 2k conversion; 3 months later written off for 1k. So to have made money from that little venture you needed to have saved 1k on fuel. £300 per month. That's a lot.
Had it not been written off, the 25k a year the vehicle was doing would have made it very worthwhile. It was obviously not intended to write the vehicle off. My point, which you studiously seem to have ignored, is that the conversion can add resale value to the vehicle. I would not recommend LPG unless the vehicle is a gas-guzzler doing lots of miles. But if you like big engines, do the miles and like diesel running costs with petrol power and performance, then LPG is for you. And unlike diesel, it is nice and clean when you fill up and smells a hell of a lot better.
I never once had to switch back to petrol due to the lack of a filling station that stocked it.
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Nick, I don't know if that was aimed at me as well but this is a 16 year old Range Rover we're talking about. I accept that £6k's worth of six year old Cherokee can have £1k added to its value by an LPG conversion.
However I seriously doubt that this vehicle will be sold for anything other than scrap in three years' time - it's more likely to be run into the ground, whenever that comes - and even it were, £1k would be most of the price he'd get for it.
Basically, spending £2k on a conversion for this vehicle is betting that it will last another six years without becoming uneconomical to repair and it strikes me as something that Medic should worry about with the next vehicle, not this one.
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David, my point was that for ME the conversion was worth it. Everyone else needs to do their own sums. I certainly wouldn't do it on an old RR, but it's not my decision. Mind you, I wouldn't own one either!
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Sorry, wasn't studiously avoiding your point.
Now, 2k cost for 1k added to value requires you to save 1k over the period you will own the vehicle. Now you've told us about your stellar mileages (perhaps you can go to pick up the Beagle from Mars...) I can see why you did it but were very unlucky. Insurance company pretty stingy not to give you full 2k though, but then you can never rely on them to pay you enough to buy the same car again imho.
Frankly I love the smell of diesel, very evocative of fun. Petrol = work, diesel = play.
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THanks guys,
Suppose I should have mentioned that the vehicle was obtained by myself after having one owner who kept the car in her garage. Most of the miles she has done with it was to the garage for servicing or shopping. It is in absolute class one condition.
Special preparation has been extensive especially corrosion inhibition, suspension and steering upgrades for the needs of full response handling.
In the last two years I have put 43K on the clock so the miles versus cost is not an issue, the problem, which seems to be getting missed, is the TYPE of system either single or multipoint and any specific recommendations or types to use / avoid.
The technical attributes of either are beyond me. The sales guys are ranting on and it would be great if users could focus on the reliability, damage potential and known issues of servicing, reliability and functionality.
Good to read so many replies, it is very appreciated.
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With that mileage and if you keep the vehicle for more than a year or so, then it's a no-brainer. I can't comment on the choice between multi- and single point as I don't know enough about it. The straight six in the Jeep was happy with a single point but the V8 in a Grand Cherokee requires a multi-point. Whether this is due to the number of cylinders or the injection system, I don't know.
Regarding servicing, the only extra thing you have is a water trap which needs periodically emptying, as all LPG contains a little water. You also need to keep the ignition system in tip-top condition. Spark plug life is reduced. A good installer will insist that you fit new plug leads unless they are already brand new. Bosch were recommended for me. Other than that, all that is needed is a visual check periodically.
Most systems seem to be italian so I would be a little worried about the mix of italian electrics and salt water. I think you'll need to properly seal every connection.
I think underchassis tanks will be fine (except maybe the salt water issue) as they are fitted quite high and you don't lose much if any ground clearance. You'll also have the benefit of a much increased range on gas, plus of course a full tank of petrol too. Although it hurts to burn petrol once you've converted!
Good luck.
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I'll be moving this thread across to technical matters later today.
DD.
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