I will give it another try in a few years time, until then petrol or petrol hybrid.
A new car should make life easier and more convenient, electric cars seem to do the opposite.
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A new car should make life easier and more convenient, electric cars seem to do the opposite.
Surely that is only the case if you regularly do long journeys and/or can't charge at home. If you can charge at home and don't do long journeys, an electric car would be much easier and much more convenient.
Re charging times, the Hyundai Ionic 6 I mentioned earlier will charge from 10-80% in as little as 18 minutes on a 220kW ultra fast charger.
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‘ Having never charged an EV is the "pump" price displayed or are buyers happy to pay. Hardly seems competitive for the consumer’ No price totems for EV drivers displaying price per kW/h. All the info is on something like ZapMap as an app. You may also find that car manufacturers supply a charge card with the car, offering a discounted rate with different charge suppliers. For example, a Plugsurfing card supplied with a Polestar will bring down the cost of charging from 74p per kWh to 35p at IONITY chargers. Company car drivers who’ve traditionally had an Allstar (or similar) card for petrol or diesel may now have an Allstar card for public charging which may cost less than the full retail price. So there’s a good chunk of people on public rapid chargers not paying full price.
Thanks for the update. Seems even more confusing than seeing 143.7p at Morrisons!
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But you do have 'super' with the fast-charge dc pumps and 'normal' with the ac ones. The dc electrons seem to make the car drive more smoothly, as well as giving extra power.
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‘ Having never charged an EV is the "pump" price displayed or are buyers happy to pay. Hardly seems competitive for the consumer’ No price totems for EV drivers displaying price per kW/h. All the info is on something like ZapMap as an app. You may also find that car manufacturers supply a charge card with the car, offering a discounted rate with different charge suppliers. For example, a Plugsurfing card supplied with a Polestar will bring down the cost of charging from 74p per kWh to 35p at IONITY chargers. Company car drivers who’ve traditionally had an Allstar (or similar) card for petrol or diesel may now have an Allstar card for public charging which may cost less than the full retail price. So there’s a good chunk of people on public rapid chargers not paying full price.
The property manager for my housing estate recently has got (presumably leased) a BMW EV and he regularly tops up FOC at a service stop on the way from his home to his various sites (it might be by buying something there).
Given the recent press about the number of freebie charging stations / 'deals' dropping like a stone and charging prices going up a lot, it seems like a reality check for EV ownership is now on its way.
Given the issues with charging points not working and often never seemingly being fixed, you have to wonder when the sudden increase in EV ownership during the Pandemic times may have a detrimental impact on sales of new ones via word of mouth of bad experiences.
I remember driving around trying to find fuel when we had the fuel protests 23 years ago, but at least then the equipment was all working and it only took 5-10 mins to fill up and pay, and rarely did I get near empty.
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No surprise the freebie charging is on ots way out - there are now too many EVs to make it a business proposition.
EV charging at home costs 34p KWh. A typical EV does 3-4 miles per KWh - an average cost per mile of 8-12p. Cost of charging could be close to zero if charging at home with installed PV. No tax on electricity (at present) vs duty on fossil fuels (unfair?)
Cost per gallon is currently ~ £6.50. At a typical 40 mpg the cost per mile is _16p. Few people have their own oil well and refinery to reduce the cost further.
That there are still charging issues and range anxiety for some does not condemn the EV to long term to failure.
In the early 20th C no doubt there would have been similar concerns raised about ICE - the former unreliable, no fuel network, limited range, rubbish roads etc vs well proven steam and equine transport.
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I'm sure I posted this before, but when I was at tescbourys, a breakdown truck pulled up and dropped off an EV at the the free charging station. Would the supermarket have been willing to provide me with a litre or two of free fuel?
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In the early 20th C no doubt there would have been similar concerns raised about ICE - the former unreliable, no fuel network, limited range, rubbish roads etc vs well proven steam and equine transport.
But in the early 20th C very few people could even consider owning a car (and a chauffeur), and no-one commuted many miles to work except by bus or train, or walked, or possibly cycled.
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To judge from many contributors to this forum "very few people could even consider owning an EV".
The concerns are not dissimilar to a century earlier despite technology and society evolving - price, reliability, they burst into flames without the slightest provocation, no where to fill up and takes too long anyway, expensive to repair when they inevitably fail etc.
Much better to stick with what we know works.
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To judge from many contributors to this forum "very few people could even consider owning an EV"..
I disagree. From the responses it is clear that quite a few have 'considered' an EV and decided against, for the reasons you mention. A century ago owning a car (and chaufeur) was closer to owning a private jet, or possibly a Lambo.
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If you buy a new petrol or diesel car, you're buying something that will be obsolete within a few years.
If you buy a new electric car, an updated version with a longer battery range might appear in a few months later.
So you can't win !!
Edited by Sofa Spud on 14/05/2023 at 10:27
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Which is why I think Hybrid is the way to go for the next 5-10 years, especially a reliable hybrid like a Toyota.
Infact I am leaning more towards a Toyota, I only wish they did a proper sized 7 seater like the Citroen Berlingo
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Which is why I think Hybrid is the way to go for the next 5-10 years, especially a reliable hybrid like a Toyota. Infact I am leaning more towards a Toyota, I only wish they did a proper sized 7 seater like the Citroen Berlingo
Japan has no interest in giving us their practical models, marketing I suppose. I would like an Avensis estate hybrid (but I wouldn't be able to afford one if it was introduced now). You're stuck with other manufacturers but I don't trust their systems, not when older.
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If you buy a new petrol or diesel car, you're buying something that will be obsolete within a few years.
If you buy a new electric car, an updated version with a longer battery range might appear in a few months later.
So you can't win !!
You can - you just need to be well off, so you don't care. ;-)
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........ EV does 3-4 miles per KWh - an average cost per mile of 8-12p. ....Cost per gallon is currently ~ £6.50. At a typical 40 mpg the cost per mile is _16p.
So a typical low mileage driver (SWMBO, 6,000miles p.a.) spends an extra circa 8 x 60 = c. £500 on energy per annum. To recoup the extra £10,000 needed to buy an EV, that's 20yrs! Doesn't make financial sense for many pensioners!
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So which small car can you buy pre-registered for £6k?
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Taiwan has a working battery swap system deployed for Gogoro electric full size scooters. Can’t see why it couldn’t be used for a car, but you would need to swap several more batteries.
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Edith it's not practical for cars. One these are 350kg items...so need machinery to handle. Two they have liquid cooling so in addition to the high voltage connectors which you need to be super cautious with, you'll need to make two perfect liquid connectors and bleed the system...every time. Oh and deal with a ton of securing bolts. That's if you don't have any cables etc in the way whilst your doing all that underneath the vehicle. Unless it's purpose designed it's simply impractical. The killer being after a while the garage is going to be left with a lot of useless batteries...and recall every EV has a different shape size of power pack. There's no standard size shape etc. Finally I'd guess the car itself has to be synced with a specific pack before it works. It's not like swapping a few triple A's is it.
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Edith it's not practical for cars.
Well well, there's still a regular on here that thinks Ed is a lady ..... :-) Or is it a leg-pull ?
Edited by Andrew-T on 15/05/2023 at 17:48
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Edith it's not practical for cars.
Well well, there's still a regular on here that thinks Ed is a lady ..... :-) Or is it a leg-pull ?
If I was (or became: no plans) a woman I rather doubt I’d be considered a lady.
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Edith it's not practical for cars. One these are 350kg items...so need machinery to handle. Two they have liquid cooling so in addition to the high voltage connectors which you need to be super cautious with, you'll need to make two perfect liquid connectors and bleed the system...every time. Oh and deal with a ton of securing bolts. That's if you don't have any cables etc in the way whilst your doing all that underneath the vehicle. Unless it's purpose designed it's simply impractical. The killer being after a while the garage is going to be left with a lot of useless batteries...and recall every EV has a different shape size of power pack. There's no standard size shape etc. Finally I'd guess the car itself has to be synced with a specific pack before it works. It's not like swapping a few triple A's is it.
They are 350kg items because they need the range. If swapping batteries via a dense infrastucture, which already exists here, you wouldn't need the range.
If wee Taiwanese girlies can swap one or two (depending on the model) scooter batteries in 20 seconds or so, they could swap 4 or 8 in a minute or two.
All the other jive above is also about existing electric cars, which rather obviously would not apply in this scenario.
OF COURSE any such car (I'm thinking a Smart sized beach-buggy/Mini Moke type thing with battery cell slots in the side sills) would have to be designed around the standardised Gogoro battery.
That's, like, THE POINT
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Edith it's not practical for cars. One these are 350kg items...so need machinery to handle. Two they have liquid cooling so in addition to the high voltage connectors which you need to be super cautious with, you'll need to make two perfect liquid connectors and bleed the system...every time. Oh and deal with a ton of securing bolts. That's if you don't have any cables etc in the way whilst your doing all that underneath the vehicle. Unless it's purpose designed it's simply impractical. The killer being after a while the garage is going to be left with a lot of useless batteries...and recall every EV has a different shape size of power pack. There's no standard size shape etc. Finally I'd guess the car itself has to be synced with a specific pack before it works. It's not like swapping a few triple A's is it.
Inside China's electric drive for swappable car batteries | Reuters
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If China wants it to happen they can make it happen, because, despite appearing to drown the revolution in Coca Cola, they still have a significantly directed economy.
Since HMG have effectively mandated electric vehicles, it appears they can overcome their ideological antipathy towards er...actually doing anything too.
Taiwan has a standardized infrastructure simply by chance, because one company was able to dominate this small market. It’s still a proprietary closed system though, and it might take legislation to open it up
The alternative to standardization is the sort of nonsense that means I have sack full of different cables for the ironically named Universal Serial Bus
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Taiwan has a working battery swap system deployed for Gogoro electric full size scooters. Can’t see why it couldn’t be used for a car, but you would need to swap several more batteries.
Changing a printer ink cartridge they are not (for cars). I wish they were, but the techj is, to me, a good 30 years away, at least.
I'd be interested to see this smaller scale try out, only because I want to see how much battery power would be needed. Maybe they would use similar 'small bricks' to those used in rechargeable commercial power tools.
Shouldn't we have had Mr Fusion and flying (hovering) cars by now (BTTF, 2015)? :-)
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Taiwan has a working battery swap system deployed for Gogoro electric full size scooters. Can’t see why it couldn’t be used for a car, but you would need to swap several more batteries.
Changing a printer ink cartridge they are not (for cars). I wish they were, but the techj is, to me, a good 30 years away, at least.
Its about 10 minutes away from me.
There's a battery swap bank at the petrol station up the road.
The “bricks” are more akin to “breeze blocks” with an ergonomic handle in the top. The casings are of course green
Edited by edlithgow on 16/05/2023 at 13:48
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Except those who only charge at home and have a cheap power window EV specific tarriff. Then it's 1.2pence per mile with a 4 year payback. Those who have significant solar pv at home can get that 1.2p per mile down quite a bit.
If you cannot charge at home or work then perhaps EVs aren't for you.
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If you cannot charge at home or work then perhaps EVs aren't for you.
Who are those in the UK who cant charge at home? How many car owners are we talking about?
Before we know the answer to the above, it will be hard to comment about how fast the market will develop.
Seems like BEV are a bit closer to other electronic appliances if trying to asses a useful life span.
A well maintained Corolla or Civic perol can do 20+ years before succumbing, I can't see this happening with early or current BEV.
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Most estimates are somewhere between a quarter and a third of UK households don't have access to off street parking. How many of those don't have cars or do live on a street with chargers, I have no idea.
As for longevity, I think EVs have to be around for longer before you can draw conclusions. There are, though, 10+ year old Nissan Leafs trundling about quite happily.
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Signs look quite good on longevity. Leaf is old tech with no battery conditioning so if they can do 10-15 years anything can.
The latest LFP batteries are reckoned to be good for between 3000 and 10000 full cycles which is enough for 0.5 to 1.5 million miles.
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Signs look quite good on longevity. Leaf is old tech with no battery conditioning so if they can do 10-15 years anything can.
The latest LFP batteries are reckoned to be good for between 3000 and 10000 full cycles which is enough for 0.5 to 1.5 million miles.
The old tech, lack of conditioning and lack of cooling seems to be reducing Leaf battery capacity significantly - BUT - this reduction rate isn't reflected in other designs and shouldn't be taken as examples for EVs in general.
Some older Leafs now have usable battery capacity less than some hybrids!
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My daughter will find out this weekend whether her Audi e tron will make the journey from Nottingham to Exmouth.
Theoretically it should , but with all those hold ups where the M4 and M5 join I have my doubts !
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My daughter will find out this weekend whether her Audi e tron will make the journey from Nottingham to Exmouth.
Theoretically it should , but with all those hold ups where the M4 and M5 join I have my doubts !
The owners of the nearest service stops would be wise to drastically increase their parking space and EV charger provisions, given a lot of customers will 'pop in' just in case of those horrendous several hour delays that stretch of road experiences on a regular basis, especially in the holiday season.
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<< The owners of the nearest service stops would be wise to drastically increase their parking space and EV charger provisions ... >>
Just like that .... overnight, or over-month perhaps. That's assuming the space is free to be tarmacked etc. And it costs, which would have to be recouped fairly soon.
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<< The owners of the nearest service stops would be wise to drastically increase their parking space and EV charger provisions ... >>
Just like that .... overnight, or over-month perhaps. That's assuming the space is free to be tarmacked etc. And it costs, which would have to be recouped fairly soon.
Indeed - I wasn't saying they would or could, but a wise business would do something to prepare. It's just that the pace of change has been artificially ramped up by poeple pushing the change generally, and it takes a LONG time for those down the chain to catch up.
I'll be laughing as I pass in my ICE car, which has 150 miles+ of fuel left in it after my trip from 'darkest' Hertfordshire to Cornwall on holiday...never had to fill up on the way down or back again (even after getting stuck for hours in jams once or twice).
Edited by Engineer Andy on 18/05/2023 at 11:42
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My daughter will find out this weekend whether her Audi e tron will make the journey from Nottingham to Exmouth.
Theoretically it should , but with all those hold ups where the M4 and M5 join I have my doubts !
If she goes via the M4 she won't.
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My daughter will find out this weekend whether her Audi e tron will make the journey from Nottingham to Exmouth.
Theoretically it should , but with all those hold ups where the M4 and M5 join I have my doubts !
I came through there at the weekend, all seems fine.
Do bear in mind that an EV uses less fuel at low speeds, and none at a standstill, so traffic jams are actually no problem.
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My daughter will find out this weekend whether her Audi e tron will make the journey from Nottingham to Exmouth.
Theoretically it should , but with all those hold ups where the M4 and M5 join I have my doubts !
I came through there at the weekend, all seems fine.
Do bear in mind that an EV uses less fuel at low speeds, and none at a standstill, so traffic jams are actually no problem.
My daughter will find out this weekend whether her Audi e tron will make the journey from Nottingham to Exmouth.
Theoretically it should , but with all those hold ups where the M4 and M5 join I have my doubts !
I came through there at the weekend, all seems fine.
Do bear in mind that an EV uses less fuel at low speeds, and none at a standstill, so traffic jams are actually no problem.
My daughter will find out this weekend whether her Audi e tron will make the journey from Nottingham to Exmouth.
Theoretically it should , but with all those hold ups where the M4 and M5 join I have my doubts !
I came through there at the weekend, all seems fine.
Do bear in mind that an EV uses less fuel at low speeds, and none at a standstill, so traffic jams are actually no problem.
My daughter will find out this weekend whether her Audi e tron will make the journey from Nottingham to Exmouth.
Theoretically it should , but with all those hold ups where the M4 and M5 join I have my doubts !
I came through there at the weekend, all seems fine.
Do bear in mind that an EV uses less fuel at low speeds, and none at a standstill, so traffic jams are actually no problem.
My daughter will find out this weekend whether her Audi e tron will make the journey from Nottingham to Exmouth.
Theoretically it should , but with all those hold ups where the M4 and M5 join I have my doubts !
I came through there at the weekend, all seems fine.
Do bear in mind that an EV uses less fuel at low speeds, and none at a standstill, so traffic jams are actually no problem.
My daughter will find out this weekend whether her Audi e tron will make the journey from Nottingham to Exmouth.
Theoretically it should , but with all those hold ups where the M4 and M5 join I have my doubts !
I came through there at the weekend, all seems fine.
Do bear in mind that an EV uses less fuel at low speeds, and none at a standstill, so traffic jams are actually no problem.
My daughter will find out this weekend whether her Audi e tron will make the journey from Nottingham to Exmouth.
Theoretically it should , but with all those hold ups where the M4 and M5 join I have my doubts !
I came through there at the weekend, all seems fine.
Do bear in mind that an EV uses less fuel at low speeds, and none at a standstill, so traffic jams are actually no problem.
No AIr Con? No heater?
You can use up a LOT of energy keeping warm.. or cold.
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Shame the edit button was missing.
If you imagine sitting in a car with a 1kW heater, you would rightly consider that would be too much heat but even sweating away for 6 hours would only cost you 10% of the range of an average EV. Heating, and indeed cooling, is an issue but not a major one.
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Even more (or less) so if you’re drawing heat from the battery via a low power consumption heat pump.
Now running an ICE to keep you warm, that does use a lot of wasted energy.
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EVs seem to be at their most efficient in traffic, particularly if they are in regen mode.
It's high speed motorways at a consistent speed which seems to hit efficiency (although many still seem to do 3-4 m/kWh once warmed up)
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Having a chat with my old neighbour who is the head technician at a Nissan & Renault/Dacia dealership, he has been told Nissan/Renault will never made a leaf/zoe with a range over 300 miles; any new battery development of range will be pushed to the larger vehicles.
Sort of makes sense
On a side note he has a number of new Mercedes Citans in his yard awaiting parts backlog; something to do with Mercedes not updating their internal software for parts ordering and Merc dealers are sending customers to Renault to speed things up (the Citan is a re-badged Kangoo).
Merc picking up the tab.
He reckons the new Kangoo is far superior in every way compared to previous shape Kangoo.
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Having a chat with my old neighbour who is the head technician at a Nissan & Renault/Dacia dealership, he has been told Nissan/Renault will never made a leaf/zoe with a range over 300 miles; any new battery development of range will be pushed to the larger vehicles. Sort of makes sense
It may be that a choice needs to be made by the manufacturer - more range or lighter weight, more passenger/load space and lower cost.
Most Leaf and Zoe owners would typically be local and low to average mileage drivers with few long trips. Taken with the probability of both faster and increased numbers of charging points in the future, the decision makes a lot of sense.
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