X5 - Thanks for the laughs - There is such an element of truth in the observation.
What about Mercedes white van man - what on earth do they put in those sprinter vans. I have been overtaken on the M25 by one of those fully loaded , must have been doing 90.
My ( retired) neighbour drives a Rover 75 to the golf club every day.
SWMBO has a Yaris because I am a HJ reader.
However I drive a Honda because I appreciate reliability, don't have an index linked pension and will need a car that will still be going when I retire ( another 11 years to go).
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I have owned Mercs for the past 15 years (have a 'C' at the moment) and also owned a BMW '7' until earlier this year (also have two Nissans BTW..) and it is true that there is certain amount of sniping at drivers of these cars. Unfortunately I think that in a fair number of cases it is justified.
The marketing men have managed to build a certain 'image' around these brands and consequently they attract a predominance of a particular type of driver. Someone who buys an MB or BMW is not buying basic personal transport, are they? A large number buy these cars because they want to 'make a statement'.
My observation over the years is that 'on the average' BMW's, Mercs (and also other 'prestige' cars like Volvos etc.) are driven more aggressively and with less consideration that 'lesser' marques - and I think this attitude is becoming more pronounced. It cannot all be explained away by allegations of envy.
It was very noticable to me that when driving my BMW 7-series any 3- or 5- that came up behind would make great efforts to overtake me - presumably trying to 'prove' something?
I have also now become quite convinced that potential purchasers of 4x4's should undergo some form of testing and training. I had an incident (documented here in the BR) where a driver of a large Jeep 4x4 very aggresively tailgated me in a 30mph zone and ended up smashing the back bumper of my Merc. Then on Saturday I was driving along a main road at 50mph and a Landcruiser driver waiting to pull out of a side road looked at me approaching and coolly pulled out right in front of me. I hit the brakes hard and blew the horn, which only served to provoke a rude gesture from the idiot.
Marketing surely has a lot to do with these attitudes. In yesterday's paper there was a half-page advert for a large Mitsubishi 4x4 with the headline 'The Ultimate Urban Warrior'. What kind of a buyer is that going to attract?
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Re 4x4s, in particular the now seemingly mandatory double-cab pick-ups, it's a fair point. All the testosterone junkies round here seem to buy them in their dozens, complete with forests of foglights, spotlights, and chrome-plated bull-bars on the front, blacked-out windows and a Rottweiler in the back, in order (I assume) to make the point that they're well hard, them, so don't mess.
Sad.
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Aprilia
Interesting observations there.
<<<<< My observation over the years is that 'on the average' BMW's, Mercs (and also other 'prestige' cars like Volvos etc.) are driven more aggressively and with less consideration that 'lesser' marques - and I think this attitude is becoming more pronounced. It cannot all be explained away by allegations of envy.
It was very noticable to me that when driving my BMW 7-series any 3- or 5- that came up behind would make great efforts to overtake me - presumably trying to 'prove' something?>>>>>
I've found that other road users react differently depending on what I'm driving. If I'm trundling round in my old C-class diesel (which in honesty is working hard just to tick-over) then surrounding traffic will treat me just like one of the herd. However, if I do the same trip in X5, I'm still the same bloke, and I drive in a similar manner, but I seem to become a target for all the local nitwits who will razz the nuts off their Saxos & Golfs in order to get past me, and thereby demonstrate that I'm not top of the heap as I supposedly imagine.
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Grear thread!
What you're driving undoubtedly affects how people treat you.
Both Mrsb and I get treated with far more respect on the M-way in the IS200 than in her Yaris.
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When I saw the title of the thread I was tempted to simply reply "I'm all for it" but X5 is clearly destined for great things so perhaps they're not all bad (but he just couldn't resist telling us he's got one of each though could he....!)
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Ditto the laughter. Wew were out in the Landie yesterday (classless driving in any language including Spanish) and we were let out of the local Tesco by another driver into a very buy main road (turning right). SWMBO waved an acknowledgment and commented how that would have never happened if we were in the BM. How right.
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I occasionaly lurk here and am dissappointed to see this topic coming up again. If we are all honest the main issue here is good old fashioned british envy.
I have a BMW 320i (2003 model) and my wife has a brand new X5. We are fairly affluent we send the children to a private school and have private health care and so on. we meet envy all the time. Frankly I think that british people need to learn that socialism is dead and we are NOT all equal. The first thing that children should be taught in school is that life is not fair and some will be winners and some losers. Some will end up driving BMWs and some will end up with a bike.
My hourly rate is probably more than some of you earn in a day. My time IS more valuable than yours and some people are more important than others (that is why half of Londaon was closed off for president Bush), that is a fact of life, like it or not.
If I come up behind you in my BMW and I'm on my way to an appointment and you are dawdling then I MAY flash you and expect you to get out of the way or speed up. I am sorry if this offends, I am sure it will offend some, but you have to live in the real world.
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Oh dear,just when i was thinking BMW drivers are not like that,along comes Mr Fireball.
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Perhaps it's not good old British envy but the good old British trait of not liking people who are show-offs. I note that you have to emphasise your "2003 model" (I presume that is your car, not your wife!)but why does your wife need an X5? Is it because she has enough time while you are earning in a day what I earn in a day (or month?)to do a lot of off-roading? Probably not, because she would have a proper off-roader. Is it because she does a lot of motorway driving? No, because she would probably have a 330D (2003 model?) or is it because she needs something completely inappropriate to drop the kids at school, or to go to the hairdressers in but that nevertheless shows those other kids that life is not fair and that there are winners and losers (especially those who have to spend £30,000 on a car to show that they are "winners")
Chose whatever car you want, and whatever car you want for your wife but sometime realise that the image given may be of someone who is a pompous showoff concerned only with image. Hope your private heath care covers psychiatric health, and that your privately educated children are given a better set of values and social skills that you were (by those poor teachers that only earn in a week what you earn in an hour)
By the way - exactly what business do you work in? Only ask so that I can avoid coming into contact with you.
Wish I could afford a brand new X5 for my wife - I'd give her the money to spend on some decent clothes and food - she deserves it after spending so long with such a low-earning, state educated, NHS treated nobody like me.
By the way, my stae scholl taught me that "british" should be "British".
Is your time more valuable than everybody else's on the board? I doubt it very much
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Come on lads,
This is normally a constructive and interesting motoring website.....go to your rooms and come back when you can behave as grown ups!
Matt35
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Most of Fireball's posts in some way promote his own huge ego and total lack of concern for anyone or anything else just so long as he gets his own way. I wish I didn't feel compelled to respond, but I do.
Fireball, you definitely have nothing that I am envious of, and plenty that I am glad I don't have. So please stop kidding yourself that we all care an iota about your lifestyle.
I'm glad that my friends who drive Beemers are not like you (then again, they wouldn't be my friends if they were...)
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I bought my wife an X5 because it is a very safe car for her to drive to the school in. You may regard it as 'inappropirate' but frankly that does not concern me. If some nutter in a boy-racer Saxo slams into her she and the children will have a much greater chance of survival than if she was driving something more 'appropriate'.
You may consider owning and driving such cars to be showing off, but we live in a free country and its my choice as to what I do with my money. Yes, I am a winner and I like to show it, why not?. The country needs more winners, should we be losers instead? And yes, some people ARE more important than others, you may not like it but it is a feature of capitalism. You cant have winners without losers too. If you dont like it then try emigrating to north Korea (sorry to get political). Thankfully this country is becoming a lot more accepting of success, although as your writng shows, there are still pockets of envy. Getting back to motoring, t
here can be few owners of lesser cars that wouldnt like to get into the driving seat of a new prestige car, be honest now!
As to my line of work, I am a mortgage broker. I give work to five staff, how many people do you employ?
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I bought my wife an X5 because it is a very safe car for her to drive to the school in. You may regard it as 'inappropirate' but frankly that does not concern me. If some nutter in a boy-racer Saxo slams into her she and the children will have a much greater chance of survival than if she was driving something more 'appropriate'.
And if your wife slams into a less fortunate family in their Saxo? I remember your contribution a why buy 4x4 thread. i could notdecide if you were a troll then and I still can't now.
As to my line of work, I am a mortgage broker.
So you take a cut from the lender for allowing folks to borrow more than they might otherwise?. The moral successor to all those ten years who tried to persuade me that endowments were the way to go?.
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Edit and delete keys, poised and ready.
Any more personal insults, and bye bye thread. You have been warned.
DD. BR Moderator.
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Sorry, DD - I shouldn't have taken the bait. Still, it's reassuring to know that a mortgage broker's time is so much more important than everybody else's time. Obviously I made a grave mistake when I gave up selling houses and endowment mortgages and returned to teaching 30 years ago because I got more job satisfaction (and about half as much money!!) Guess that makes me a "loser".
My last words on the subject!!
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I bought my wife an X5 because it is a very safe car for her to drive to the school in. You may regard it as \'inappropirate\' but frankly that does not concern me. If some nutter in a boy-racer Saxo slams into her she and the children will have a much greater chance of survival than if she was driving something more \'appropriate\'.
My sediments exactly!
I can\'t afford one at the moment but as soon as I can I\'ll be joining you, although I would prefer a Toyota Land Cruiser, If some little pink fluffy wuffy dice wants to spread himself across the front of it then at least I\'ll only be upset about the insurance paperwork.
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I have nothing against Mercs, but if I have been cut up on the road or overtaken dangerously then almost invariably it will have been by a BMW.
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After reading this thread,I've just been put off the blue prop. After twenty years of (mainly) threes, guess I'll have by something more in keeping with my "hourly rate" - funny I've never thought of it as an hourly rate before and it might take some time with a calculator to work it out.
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Sediments? Must be an autobiographical irony.
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Mods,
Could we have a seperate 'Moans, Trolls and Personal Abuse' thread please ? There seems to be a plethora of all three lately.
Kevin...
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As to my line of work, I am a mortgage broker. I give work to five staff, how many people do you employ?
Fireball, how can you afford to live off the salary of a lowly mortgage broker? Join the big boys in IT consultancy, and then you'll be earning in one day what you currently earn in one week.
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Fireball XL5: your posting has left me completely open mouthed.
Something life has taught me is that a person's salary bears no relation to their value to society. And before you think that is an insult, it isn't intended to be, since I earn an absurdly high salary. You are right that society is not fair. My mother was a nurse and that is a job that is worthy of far more respect than my own (IT consultant). But it pays peanuts.
To get back to cars, I drive a Ford Ka, though I could easily buy a new Porsche 911. It is a lovely little car. Very practical. I remember reading that the top bloke at Fiat loved driving the cheapest and smallest model produced by Fiat, as it was so easy to park, and fun to drive.
And to get back to the thread, the original poster (whose posting was amusing) is right that there is prejudice against BMW/Merc drivers. I used to think they were all self important people with no manners. But for the last few months I have been noting how cars are driven, and have been surprised at how courteous and friendly most BMW/Merc drivers are.
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>>Fireball XL5: your posting has left me completely open mouthed.
Me too. And I can't decide whether to delete it as annoying to me or leave it as hilariously amusing as to how some people need to bolster their feelings of self-worth.
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having arrogant columnists is why newspapers attract readers, so what's wrong with some provocation here?
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I bought my wife an X5 because it is a very safe car for her to drive to the school in. You may regard it as 'inappropirate' but frankly that does not concern me. If some nutter in a boy-racer Saxo slams into her she and the children will have a much greater chance of survival than if she was driving something more 'appropriate'.
And with all the big 4x4s I feel reluctant to let my kids cycle to school, so then I have to get one too. This feels like the cold war, where each side continues to up the ante.
We need to find a way of bringing everyone back down to earth!
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As a BMW owner and enthusiast, I was nauseated reading that thread by XL5. !!
I have no problem with people working hard to reach their ambitions in life, but as a youngster I was always taught that it is`nt material possessions but CHARACTER that maketh man !!!
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Let's face it, Fireball XL5 has a point. Life is unfair. Socialism doesnt work, no matter how fantastic the ideology may be. It is a competitive world out there.
Personally, as someone who could afford a BMW or Merc, I choose not to, because a car is a car, and the one I have does the job. I'd rather donate £100 per month to the MacMillan hospice that took care of my mum in her final weeks, than waste it on a car badge in the vein hope it will improve my standing in society.
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As stated, the world isn't fair, some people are well off and some people aren't.
If we accept that, then it's only fair that we accept that when you buy a car you are also buying an image that goes with it. If that image means that everyone hates you on the road I think you have to live with that too.
Gareth
p.s. Why not buy a Porsche Cayenne? Too poor?
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During my 27 years in accountancy, I've been privy to the full financial details of a wide range of individuals. I have to say that in my experience, the majority of drivers of expensive BMWs have been heavily in debt. If I think of my current 6 most wealthy clients they drive:
Yaris
M Reg Peugeot 405 estate
Civic
Primera
M Reg Audi A6
Micra
I have one client with £200K in his deposit account who drives a £200 banger!
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During my 27 years in accountancy, I've been privy to the full financial details of a wide range of individuals. I have to say that in my experience, the majority of drivers of expensive BMWs have been heavily in debt. If I think of my current 6 most wealthy clients they drive: Yaris M Reg Peugeot 405 estate Civic Primera M Reg Audi A6 Micra I have one client with £200K in his deposit account who drives a £200 banger!
He could buy an old BMW for £200 ;-)
Gareth
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Garethj's post says it all: if you've got it (and you're a decent human being) you don't need to flaunt it
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Let's face it, Fireball XL5 has a point. Life is unfair. Socialism doesnt work, no matter how fantastic the ideology may be. It is a competitive world out there. Personally, as someone who could afford a BMW or Merc, I choose not to, because a car is a car, and the one I have does the job. I'd rather donate £100 per month to the MacMillan hospice that took care of my mum in her final weeks, than waste it on a car badge in the vein hope it will improve my standing in society.
Pdc, spot on.
I think that alot of people who drive BMWs and MBs have to show off that they have this "status symbol" and are deeply insecure. The thoughtless driving that some people in these cars do is only really them seeking attention.
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Me too. And I can't decide whether to delete it as annoying to me or leave it as hilariously amusing as to how some people need to bolster their feelings of self-worth.
Could you be just a teensy bit more condescending please?
Fireball was just expressing his opinion that BMW bashing is envy.
I didn't see anything morally wrong with what Fireball wrote, granted it is not a view you hear expressed very often. Perhaps this is due to the predicable reaction of the tree huggers, who become aghast that anyone should want to show off they think they are doing well in life.
Guess those rugby boys shouldn't have picked up their trophy, the big show offs
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Just be careful when driving out there, buying a big car doesn't make us invincible. Whatever you have, there will always be someone bigger! I wouldn't like to be in an X5 in a crash with a 10-tonne truck. Or a Bus. Or a 38-tonne artic. Or a JCB etc... In that case I wonder if you may be better avoiding the accident in a smaller and more manoeuvrable Ford Ka or Yaris?
Gareth
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Another thought, if BMW bashing is envy, why don't you get it when driving a Bentley or something expensive and exclusive?
Gareth
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In that case I wonder if you may be better avoiding the accident in a smaller and more manoeuvrable Ford Ka or Yaris?
that isn't going to roll at the slightest flinch of the steering wheel.
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I have no problem with succesful and welthy people. I have no problem with them having nice cars. I have no problem with them having 4x4s for the school run. I have no problem with them sometimes being in a hurry and flashing people who are dawdling.
However, Fireball's post gave me the impression of someone tearing around in a permanent hurry from one appointment to another (remember that hourly rate)and generally acting as if he has more right to use the road than anyone else.
Sometimes when I see a particularly selfish piece of driving (ie the last minute lane change, agressive tailgating, refusing to let another person out etc) I have a bit of a rant to myself, along the lines of "Oh you go ahead and push in front mate, you are obviously much more important than the rest of us, we'll just sit here in this queue then shall we etc etc etc"
It's nice to know that this is exactly how some people actually see themselves.
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My word - this thread didn't half brighten up my morning - prejudice and envy in plenty!
What pleased me was the list of the financial consultant with the six cars of his richest clients , including a Civic and Yaris , both cars owned by yours truly.
X5 - Why don't you buy a helicopter or two so you can fly over the top of the proletariat. I've got a couple at around $6.000,000 each if you're interested.
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But what kind of financial consultant would advise/allow a client to keep £200k in a deposit account these days? (Sorry - off-thread)
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Oh dear, XL5 has, at a stroke, undone all the sterling efforts of other BRers who?ve tried to convince us that the BMW stereotypes were inaccurate.
Maybe in half the population the problem IS envy. Shame, because it looks like it?s precisely that envy that?s required by such BMW drivers, to feed their smugness.
The other half of us don?t feel envy, just anger, at their arrogance about their right to be arrogant.
As to which people are ?more important?, I was thinking about this earlier. I reckoned a skilled neurosurgeon might be important, but thought perhaps an estate agent who got run over by a bus could be replaced fairly easily. And then later what do I read ? XL5 is a mortgage broker...
I work in a privately founded and owned company which employs 120 people. The managing director drives an N-reg Micra. Who of us are to say which of them?s time is more important when XL5 comes up behind him and ?expects? him to get out of the way? He?s paid his road fund licence as well, you know. I thought the only vehicles legitimately allowed to ?expect? this were those with blue or green flashing beacons.
I?d like a BMW 330D, but only because it?s a good car. If Hyundai brought out something with just as good an engine and general competence at half the price, I?d get one of those in preference.
Would you be prepared to do the same XL5? Or would that be a stereotype you *couldn?t* manage to live up to?
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I actually feel ashamed that I am renumerated as I am. I earn 5 times more than a friend who is a police officer, twice the salary of my GP neighbour, and in the past 7 years I've probably earned more than my mother ever did in her 40 years of working. And what do I do? I sit on my rear all day developing web/desktop applications to enable companies to make even more money out of their processes. For the past 18 months I've decided to work in local govt, at 50% my max earning potential, where I will hopefully make a difference. The current project I am on is to develop a system which will hopefully prevent a repetition of the Victoria Climbie affair.
The money I do earn I spend on my friends and family and cancer charities, never expecting them to buy a round etc. It's my own form of redistributing the wealth.
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"The money I do earn I spend on my friends and family and cancer charities, never expecting them to buy a round etc. It's my own form of redistributing the wealth."
Bless you.
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Topaktas
He has his reasons for keeping £200k on deposit, he knows I don't agree with his reasons, but we can't run other people's lives for them!
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Wow what a thread! What would I do if I had the money? I just don't know but one thing that does concern me is the amount of energy (fuel) these big motors consume. I realize that having the money gives you the right to buy what you need but is it the right thing to do?
As for social standing I was always told manner maketh the man.
Steve.
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I cant keep out of this one either!
Ok I drive a nice new car. I earn more than the national average, I get medical insurance, I get a fat pension when i retire early. Live in a nice house, nice area, kid goes to a good school. Call me Mr slightly above average.
I could earn pots more by sacrificing quality time (and have done in the past)
So given that:
Would I like an X5 - yes i would. Would I feel some pride, some showiness with one? yes I would. Would it make me feel self important? probably. Would it make me a more aggressive driver? possibly. Am i prepared to sacrifice quality time and home life to get one? no.
Do I do my bit for society? yes I support a poorly paid nurse who works for the NHS. She could earn more and has done, but likes to give something back. So I support her.
So with the envy bit dealt with, ie I could get one if I wanted, then I can safely castigate Mr Fireball, and I do so.
I am happy to report that I would not consider (and never have done) putting money in the hands of a mortgage broker. Why do you need them? what wrong with using the net, phone and the same providers of the funds that he uses? I am pleased I have not contributed to his lifestyle or attitude.
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I agree with what most people here are saying, if Fireball came up behind, say, multi-millionaire ex-F1 driver Jackie Stewart (who i know drives a standard Focus), Fireball would ASSUME he was far more important and drive aggressively to get past.
To me, that arrogance because of wealth annoys me, but i think that what i am about to say would annoy Fireball more:
Rather than envy at your expensive car, how about PITY, that you and drivers like you are so insecure about your social standing that you feel the need to own a status symbol purely for image reasons, and feel the need to attempt to exercise that status every time you go onto *public* roads.
Moderators - Thats not meant as a personal attack, merely a case study for whcih to attach a stereotype
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I am currently driving a W211 E320 Merc so according to some I am more important than people in lesser cars including Fireball.
I am also, according to others, insecure about my social standing.
I am an electrical engineer who works his b### off and is currently trying to make his wife and children as comfortable as possible. I started out as a £35 an hour electrical apprentice and through hard work have made something of my life. Yes I do put it down to a little luck but mostly hard work, 12 to 18 hour days etc.
I come from a fairly poor background so I know the value of things and one of my dreams was to buy a large Mercedes, I can now afford to do that but not because I think I am more important than anyone else and not because I am insecure about my social standing. I bought the car because I wanted to and could afford to, simple as that. If that brings jealousy then tough.
I am no more important than the bloke next to me in his 10 yr old fiesta and if anyone thinks they are more important than me then they are just sad little losers.
We are all equal and all deserve the right to drive what we want to without jealousy, simple as that.
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Great post Marcos, you've just about summed it up perfectly.
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Marcos,
I was one of the insecurity posters but I was being a bit of a devil's advocate as I drive a 530dT. Do people really use their cars as a "status symbol"?
You started out on £35 an hour!!!! I started out working in France for the minimum wage which was about £600 a month for a "40 hour" week which at certain times of the year was a 120 hour week!
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There is an awful lot of 'holier than thou' about some of the posts here - an awful lot of people seem to be sitting on piles of cash and driving around in humble cars.... ;-)
I suspect that Mr Fireball is actually far more representative of the average BMW/MB driver than most people here would like to admit.
Rich people tend to like to display their wealth - that's why they buy flash cars and expensive jewellery and have 'trophy wives'. I applaud Fireball for his honesty - he's telling it like it really is.
As to criticism of his choice of an X5 for the school run; well I bet exactly the same applies to all the purchasers of those other 4x4 you see outside school.
Note that I don't neccessary agree with or like what he is saying, but he *is* honest about it and IMHO he probably *is* speaking for the *typical* prestige car buyer.
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Sorry, It should read £35 a week electrical apprentice. At £35 an hour I probably wouldn't have had to work to hard would I.
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Perhaps this thread should be re-titled:-
"How much do you earn, how many BMWs & MBs do you own & how important in life are you?"
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Fireball thanks for reminding me why I gave up posting here about a year ago.
Nobody care what you drive, it\'s the person that counts. I don\'t know anybody who has BM envy - sorry to burst your ego balloon.
But I do know lots of people who wouldn\'t buy one as they are generally driven by arrogant pfd\'s like you. S\'pose that\'s me banned now! But I\'m not coming back so I don\'t care.
Many of the Beemers are of little financial value but are still driven recklessly.
Personally I\'m an IT contractor and choose to run a 20 yr old Landrover. It will still be going when I retire in another 20 yrs time.
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I've had enough of this thread.
We just don't need this standard of opinions in the Backroom. I've never heard anything as ridiculous as judging someone by the car they drive and determining one's level of importance in the world either by car or bank balance.
I'll leave the thread for an hour or so on the off chance that it improves, if it doesn't it will simply disppear.
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for what it's worth, that gets my vote
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and mine......
but can I suggest you keep X5's rather funny orginal posting?
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but can I suggest you keep X5's rather funny orginal posting?
Yeah, I second that, it was good! Shame everything went a bit wrong later on...
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Yes what started as a slightly comical thread has now descended into personal and judgemental slurs, maybe its best to halt it there.
Marcos - I hope your post shortly after my last wasn't in some way aimed at my comments, if so i apologise for not expressing them correctly. To clarify them i have absolutely no problem with people buying BMW's/Merc's because they can afford to, they are prestige cars and i am sure they are very nice cars to own, just the way in which *some* people think this is a ticket to abuse other drivers and the rules of the road. Until given reason to think otherwise i try to treat all cars around mine as equals, honest.
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The sad thing is that the thread was the started by the funniest posting I have read in the backroom . This was echoed by lots of people. How these threads twist and turn.
Yes - Delete Button required.
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Mark
just lock it. It did start off funny and maybe will act as a reminder of how bitchy we can all get.
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"But what kind of financial consultant would advise/allow a client to keep £200k in a deposit account these days? (Sorry - off-thread)"
Until recently the answer would be the honest one who cared more about the clients wealth than about making a big commission from selling unit trusts that subsequently plunged in value.
Anyway, what's wrong with keeping a bit of pocket money in the current account for easy access?
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Please don't delete it Mark.
It deserves to stay as a reminder to the rest of what constitute a decent human being with decent values.
We can all read his posting and be thankful that we are not him, hope we will never meet him and congratulate ourselves that we do not share his values.
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Ok, I haven't deleted it. However, it is locked.
Personally I would delete all but the intiial note, but since you've requested it remains, then I'll leave it on this occasion.
However, any similar threads will get trashed immediately.
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