Peugeot 406 cambelt - worth fixing?
I don't know - I've done 80'000 miles in two years, no problems. SWMBO has car for 1 week and timing belt "goes".
Changed 50k ago (1 year).
Car's done 190k on an R plate.
2.1td. GLX in white.. NOT a taxi! Motorway and A roads - 130ish miles/day commute.
ah, 2.1 XUD 2088cc engine... 12v. Not HDI.
Now I know it's going to be expensive..
Car was decelerating from 20'ish to stop to turn so should have been about 1100 revs, possibly clutch down.. Wife heard a "clunk" like "something dropping off" and car stopped. Turns over, sounds very "wheezy". Engine light comes on the dashboard, flickers once and stays on. (The "K" light).
I hoped it was ECU or fuel pump..
Towed to Garage by Mr Boarhunt. He said "compression sounds like it's gone, 98% sure it's timing belt. I've been doing this for 16 years, buy a japanese model instead - only been to one in last 6 months (and it was a flat battery)"
(This has been heavily discussed in other threads I know - just giving my tuppence worth)
My possible courses of action:
a. get Cam changed (£200)- sound a bit steep - 3.5h@£35 p.h. +VAT and see if it starts.
If not, get head off and look (£150 or so)
If valves bent, put some used ones he has in the shop.. (Should I go for new valves??) (Book time 10-16 hours + parts)
Cost hopefully around £200 (belt) + £500? head and valve work???
Car is worth (if someone buys it) probably £1200 running, but has been a faithful "armchair" to work.. for almost 100k.
What else would one expect to go? Fuel pump? (orig) Turbo? (orig)Clutch (orig), gearbox (orig) ...
b. Scrap / sell it for spares for £300? and buy a runner...
Shame - -just had new Rad, bushes, disks, pads, tyres, and
bulbs... Oh, and - Serpentine belt was changed two weeks ago due to "chirping" Could this be linked?
I can use SWMBO's car (Punto jtd) until it's fixed but I feel for her cycling 7 miles each way to work in the rain...
Thanks for any advice. I've got it on hold until Monday morning...
|
Sorry to hear this.
Looking at this logically, the car has served well and is effectively beyond economic repair.
However, I detect some affection for the car which puts logic out of the window.
Given that the car is probably on it's original clutch, turbo etc, what about a 2nd hand engine, you could look at putting either a 1.9 or 2.0 diesel in provding the mounts are compatible?
|
No point just changing the belt, the damage will definitely have been done. As above, the repair will cost you pretty much what the car is worth. There are plenty of Xantias out there going for peanuts which could serve as a donor car for engine transplant if it's worth the hassle to you. Bad luck - but it happens to us all at some point!
Baz
|
|
If you know the history of your 406 and there's nothing else wrong, get the engine fixed (preferable, if it won't be exhorbitant) or stick a replacement in it.
|
Thanks for all the replies so far. I think I wil get the belt done (will have to be done anyway) if it'll run - great. Although I doubt it. I will then say "if you can get the engine running again for all in £500, I think I will.. Better the devil you know - just hope alternator/clutch/shocks/turbo/fuel pump and gearbox hold out in the next 30k miles when I will be getting rid of it anyway in March....)
Cheers.. Anyone know a trustworthy mechanic with decent rates b'twixt chichester and bournemouth? (ie around pompy?)
|
This happened to me in my 605 auto (same engine). Including a replacment water pump, skimmed head, new valves etc etc, it came to £1,500 at a back street garage!!
There were lots of nigles afterwards, including being much noiser and 10% less economical. I'd scrap the Pug and replace it.
|
With a broken cam belt this engine will have lunched some valves. There's also a good possibility that it will have lunched some of the rockers the drive the second 'row' of valves. It's also a major shoe horn job in the 406 / Xantia, and it's recommended to removed the engine to get the head off. So you could 'whip' the engine out do the necessary on the head, stick a new clutch in, replace the inaccesible heater hoses down the back of the engine, stick it all back together, and hand over a four figure sum even to your back street garage. Then you have to ask how much longer is the 'box going to last past 190k, what else is going to break.
I think with a heavy heart I would be having it towed to the scrappers. 2.1 TD's are not that common, so getting another engine might not be that easy.
RichardW
Is it illogical? It must be Citroen....
|
Yes, I should listen to those in the know.. I think I will go a halfway point.
There is no point in trying the Cambelt first; it's £200 not worth doing.
So I have asked for the head to come off (Bloke did not sound like it would be an engine out job) and check it out. That should, I reckon, be up to £100.
Depending on his judgement, I'll quit (scrap it) if job will be more than £500.. Otherwise stick with "the devil I know" as I got it at 100k with full lease history and have done 90K carefully...
I only need a car for another 6 months (22000 miles) before leaving UK anyway..
sound reasonable?
|
I know your situation only too well, I had the now well documented con rod explosion on my 98? 1.9 UXDT last summer. I decided to have a new engine fitted with all the other bits which were damaged, starter motor and air-con compressor it came to around 3,500 in all. This was almost as big a mistake as buying the car in the first place, it has cost another 1,000 pounds in repair bills in the last year.
If the car is in good nick it may be worth putting in a cheap re-con engine and selling it, otherwise scrap the thing.
I would recommend buying a Japanese car, which is what I?m currently looking to buy. My father ran a Nissan Primera as a Taxi for 8 years it did 260,000 miles and that was using a 1.6 petrol engine. It was home serviced with an oil and filter change every six months, the most expensive part to go was the clutch which was replaced at 130,000 miles, not too bad considering it was all stop start town driving. The engine still sounded as sweat as a nut when it was sold last year ( on reflection I should have bought it off him ) and since it had a cam chain not a belt we had done no work at all on the engine.
Good luck with what route you choose and my advice is stay away from French cars.
|
Blow-by blow update....
may be good news...
spoke to garage guy - they've got the head off now...
Cambelt HAD snapped.
I think this would limit the damage to one cylinder....
BUT the mechanic (they are peugeot specialists and do only pugs) said "oh, in these engines there is a device that stops damage to the cylinders from the pistons if the cam goes"
this is sounding better...
at 17:30 I will know more....
|
Heads off. Manifold not off yet...
2 or 3 rockers snapped.
tomorrow they fill it with cleaning fluid and see if the valves hold it.
It's dutch to me.
They're now packing up.
Await the next installment tomorrow at 11......
|
Sorry to hear about that, often wonder how much better the 2.1 is compared to the 1.9. You could buy SWMBO a set of waterproofs, just think what it would do for her figure!
Steve.
|
The 2.1 is good. I have a belief that any car has a minimum "overhead" of BHP.
som saym a 406 uses 50 as a "minimum" so in the 90bhp you have 40 of "life" but in the 2.1 (110bhp) you have 60 of "life" thus "more lively" by 120%... (if that makes sense!)
Anyway, SWMBO is a fitness instructor already but the rain has been abysmal!
back to the car .....
The bill looks like being about £550 all in...
head gasket, inlet gasket, head bolts, cambelt and antifreeze..
These are pretty much the "head off and cambelt" changes. The other damage was....
Two rockers to be replaced.
And 10 hours of labour at a negotiated rate of about £35ph.
I'm pretty happy with this as long as the engine REALLY is the same afterwords.
Would there be any reason it would not having looked at the parts list?
Thanks for all the advise - O guess I have some emotional attachment to this car, as well as not wanting to buy another running "pandoras box"
|
To my way of looking at it, what would you get £550? Not much worth having really.
Fitness instructor? - you're luckier than it first appeared! LOL.
Steve.
|
I'm pretty happy with this as long as the engine REALLY is the same afterwords. Would there be any reason it would not having looked at the parts list?
I guess if there really is no damage to pistons or valves you should be OK, but even the change of gasket can make an engine feel different. I am however intrigued by the damage limitation mechanism; theory is that the rockers take the knock and fracture before the valve/piston sustains damage?. Does this actually work in high speed/load failures and is the HDi 110 in my xantia similarly protected?.
TIA
|
The gasket could decrease compression I suppose a bit, but not a bad part to change after that amount of mileage.. Glad there was SOME damage limitation - paying for 12valves did not sound good with the regrinding etc that may have been required.
re: similarities to the HDI: I really can't comment - I have the "old" TD engine - not HDI. Did want one though - was hoping for the 136bhp 2.2 but have not seen one for below £7k'ish..
I will update with a "look and feel" test when I have the car back - I have done around 80-90k in it so will know if it is OK/ the same.
|
I have a broken rocker from a 306 HDi engine here somewhere after the belt jumped.
Hold on, I'll go find it.....it's quite interesting to see.
--
groups.msn.com/honestjohn - Pictures say a thousand words.....
|
Here's a pic of the net result of the 306 HDI belt slip
groups.msn.com/honestjohn/problems.msnw
Hopefully it should be a clickable link, if not, can the mods edit it accordingly?
--
groups.msn.com/honestjohn - Pictures say a thousand words.....
|
Hi Alfa Pug
You mentioned earlier in the thread that you were looking for a Pug specialist around Pompey - did you find one. My 406HDi is refusing to start and if the AA can't fix it I will take it to the main dealer. After previous dealings with them they do not fill me with confidence - a local specialist would suit me better.
BTW, from your name I presume you also have an Alfa? I have a GTV6 locked in the garage til spring (good to see one, albeit briefly, on TG last week) and the 406 for daily commute.
Adrian
|
Thanks for the stuff so far - the rocker is from the HDI engine which superceded mine..Mine's the older type but seems to have come through it - I suspect as it was at 1000 rpm and probably in neutral rather than a motorway 300rpm plus in 5th helped...
I called the Garage on Friday and Saturday and "It's not back together yet, can you call on Monday?" "It really needs a roadtest first"
I will not name them until I have the car back and can confirm satisfaction.
As it's been with them since Monday last, I'm pretty put out but we'll manage.. It is, after all a very good rate and will (should) (touch balsa) keep the old dear on the road!
Hopefully Monday will be good news.
Adrian - Email me via the moderators and I will tell you the Garage (ND/ HJ is that OK??) and you can make your own opinion.. My normal services are done by a one-man-band who is near my work (c. 100 miles away from home) so he does more routine stuff (oils/ disks/ pads/ bushes/ filters etc for loads of Pug taxis) whilst I am at work but this Garage have diagnostic kit , lots of ramps and spare engines for bits.. More pricey though.
I have, in the last 12 years had some 15 alfas - several 33's, Suds, 155 2.0 16v (Wonderful car!), 156 V6 (Fast, crisp, many faults), GTV 3L 24v(v. v. fast, v. v. "skitty"/ sensitive on 17" Aero's), 33 P4 (Wonderful car!), 33 Sportswagon (almost useful space!), 33 1.5, 1972 spider (130mph, will slide back out on a roundabout at 15mph!), no 164/146/147/75's though... Family members have old Guiliettas and a lovely Orange Sud!
406 is GREAT for the daily commute - I'm getting tired using the Punto - Accelerator/clutch too high!
Missing it!
|
The older XUD 12v engine is still a gem with plenty of power on tap. Don't know if I'd really want to pull the head off one! It looks very tricky indeed.
I have always wondered what this engine would be like in a 405 or better still, a 306! I think it would be a stonking motor in such a small bodyshell. It's quite a refined motor aswell, not overly noisy as some HDi's can be.............
--
groups.msn.com/honestjohn - Pictures say a thousand words.....
|
I've been following this thread being a fellow 406 2.1td owner, and am waiting with baited breath for the outcome. I hope all goes well and you are pleased with it.
Apart from front suspension collapse (offside front coil spring broke for which Peugeot customer services didn't want to know about despite not being that uncommon on this model according to HJ car by car breakdown), I have really enjoyed having my 406. This is the second cam belt failure for this model on the site in the last month. I'll just have to hope that I did mine correctly whem I did it myself last year.
Good luck
Reggie
|
Hopefully the last update..
Went to pick it up at 9.00...
Car had it's roadtest this morning with the Garage.
I took it for a spin and it seemed OK.
They detected a rattle from the Cat area - maybe a loose matrix but "not something we would have caused". MOT Mid December - if it passes - fine.
** Question - Could matrix disintegrate and kill the exhaust system?
I heard the "rattle " - I didn't notice it before, but maybe I'm more sensitive to unusual noises. The Engine is running fine. Apparently when the heads came off the mech could still see the original manufacturers "bore marks" - some cris-cross markings that were cut in 180,000 miles ago ...
The turbo seems a little bit more "chirpy" and makes a little more noise but seems fine, and the power is all OK.
Lost the radio code - tried 0000 to no avail.. I will call Peugeot with the VIN to get the code (as an ex lease car I don't think I had it with the car)
Otherwise, back on the road for more than I thought above, but not too much to warrant scrapping it... Below £1k..
I would recommend the Garage - Please Email me for the details.
At the end of the day, they did a job that they fitted in around a busy schedule for a good rate as I have been using them on and off for 6 years.. The guvnor is friendly and quite helpful. The price reflects the time - If I had pushed for it to offset other jobs, it prob would not have taken 6 days, but would have been a lot more expensive (£1200+).
Their rates are £39p.h. + VAT and they are soon to get the new Pug diagnostic kit. They are an affordable alternative to using main dealers for the service schedule as mentioned in other threads... And they can keep the service record up depending upon your warranty. They're at the bottom of the A3(M)
Now, I keep the revs below 3000 for a few weeks and cross my fingers... oh, and check the oil and water regularly...
Thanks a bucketload for all the advise I've read here - especially interested in seeing the broken rockers - thanks.
|
Glad to hear it has lived to see another day!
Don't worry about the cat - it's not required on a diesel for it to pass an MOT - they only check the smoke level, not the actual emissions. The cat just reduces NOx. The matrix may disintegrate and block the exhaust, you'll just have to see how it goes.
The marks in the cylinders are 'honing' marks - the surfaces are honed to ensure the piston rings do their job properly, and this results in a characteristic criss-cross marking. The fact that they are still visible means very little bore wear has taken place. I found the same when I took the head off my BX with the 1.7TD engine at 136,000 miles.
RichardW
Is it illogical? It must be Citroen....
|
Good news! Glad to hear you found a decent workshop.
I'll echo Richards comments - the catalyst on a diesel engine is not required for MOT purposes.
The amount of main-dealer diesel catalyst replacements astounds me - when a section of exhaust is available WITHOUT the catalyst - I'm talking about MK2 (97-) 306 TD's here.
--
groups.msn.com/honestjohn - Pictures say a thousand words.....
|
Well, all seems well although I'm concerned about the Cat. MOT is in 10 days, so I'll get it through it and then get the cat cut out and replaced with a straight through. might increase power slightly according to a friend with a J reg porche 924 that did not require it.. Although with a Pug diesel I doubt difference wil be as much! Will have it removed cos of breakup worries... New cat is only £130 though to save the environment! (oh yes, plus fitting and shipping!)
So, I'll keep my ear out on the Turbo still sound a little "reedy" or "chirpy"- If the turbo goes (assuming it just dies and no debris shards into the engine) can I juast run the car as a normally-aspirated? I think turbos are around £345 as an exchange at or have a recondition of my turbo.
any thoughts?
|
>>I would recommend the Garage - Please Email me for the details.
If they're that good, then;
1) mention them here
2) e-mail HJ at mailto:letters@honestjohn.co.uk in case he would like to include them in the good garage guide.
|
Just keep driving it irrespective of the turbo noise, I'm sure it will be fine.
Nooooo, don't be tempted to drive it in non-turbo mode, it will be a slug!
--
groups.msn.com/honestjohn - Pictures say a thousand words.....
|
I was just wondering why the garage took the head off and didn't simply replace the damaged rocker gear which would have only taken a few hours and been alot cheaper. I know that would have been risky, but if after inspection it was found that the tips of the valve stems where all sitting at the same height in relation to the face of the head with the cam removed (as must of been the case as no valve damage reported)it might have been possible to get away with this - although a compression check after would have been a good idea. Bearing in mind the belt only snapped at idle, this would have seemed like the sensible option.
|
Well, last 2 months have been busy.. and the Pug 406 had the Catalytic Converter "rodded out". This left the cat box empty.
I am amazed by how much more torque, power and smoothness I now have! On the dry road on the way to the MOT retest having had the cat "rodded out" and the middle box changed, I actually spun the wheels in SECOND gear.. Unprecedented in the last 85000+ miles I have done in the car. Even the wife said it felt like a new car when she drove after I'd had an Xmas pint (or two!). Went up to motorway speed much more smoothly and speedo showed higher numbers than before (of course up to 70).
No undue noise difference.. Have now done 2000 in this configuration and am impressed. Not as good for the environment (particulates and all that), but it seems to be 2-3mpg less thirsty as well.
I think I would steer others towards this action if their diesel cat plays up as it is not REQUIRED to pass the MOT. And it was £5 instead of a new CAT at £240+.
|
Bumpy bump - not worth starting a new thread for:
Would this work on an HDi, and is it still legal?
|
