That's a good article 3500s.
Very little difference between the &14,000 Merc and the £8,000 rover - it highlights my view that the more you pay for a new car the sillier you are.
A couple of things from other current threads.....heated seat pads that cost the manufacturer £2, and £1,000 'leather' seats which are mostly vinyl - save your money for something worthty of the effort it took to earn.
CF
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Doesn't this article just show the A-Class is to expensive, rather than the City Rover is any good.
The A-Class won on all counts bar the gearbox (which according to other reviews is bad on the cityRover) and the colour which a stupid thing to say anyway considering you can choose your own.
The one they tested cost 7895 which is more than most of the competition does.
Anyone read the Clarkson review of the Panda in the Sunday Times ?
He liked it so much, he used it instead of his Merc.
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It seems like it is just a way to say it doesnt like the Merc more than it thinks the Rover is any good - in fact the whole article doesnt seem to say anything really decent about the Rover. I wouldnt take it as a Merc loses, Rover wins.
Also to slate a car on the colour of the vehicle tested undermines the road testers points. Thats purely a matter of taste as Carl-a says.
Interesting to note 3500S that you were all up for championing its cause before it was launched, but once it was tested by the mags and basically rubbished you disappeared. It shows the impartiality some people have that they are unable to admit when they were wrong.
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3500S,
He confirms what everyone else says - that the Rover is poor to put it mildly.. It is just that "if it was his money" he would take the Rover and pocket the additional £6,000 it would take to get the A-Class.
C
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I was ill for three weeks before Christmas with a nasty inner ear infection. Sitting up at a PC at the time filled me with nausea, still that doesn't change 365 days a year but it was a physical impossibility at the time.
I'll admit reviews have been mixed and there is still room for improvement but I think its demise as a bag of spanners is premature. Articles like this one help to put everything into perspective I feel.
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I hope you feel better now - back to the chatter of the forum!
Somehow i dont feel it is a demise, because in order to have that it had to start from a good position, and i dont think it can demise from being bad to start with.
I remember in 1989 when the Austin Rover Metro was given 5 stars by What Car when it was launched. Over time it got older, and therefore not as good as the competition. However the City Rover was last in group tests from the very start.
It puts into perspective the cost v quality of an A class, but merely reconfirms what poor design, build quality (or rather quality of materials used), price and drive experience the car is.
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I remember in 1989 when the Austin Rover Metro was given 5 stars by What Car when it was launched.>>
Err, wasn't that 1979? Thoughts of the Metro, (or was it the Rover 114) getting 5 stars as recently as 1989 makes me shudder
Gareth
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Maybe he's referring to when the Metro was relaunched with the revised nose, K series engines, and interconnected Hydragas suspension. I seem to remember What Car made one version of it their overall Car of the Year, and CAR magazine were very enthusiastic about it too.
It was only when the 100 scored badly in the NCAP test that everybody suddenly started saying it was rubbish. Ok, in that respect it wasn't competitive, but it was basically an old design. But everything's relative - at least it HAD an airbag, so potentially was a better bet than for those people still driving about in old mark 2 Fiestas and Novas.
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I saw an Allegro VP a while ago. It looked better than the CR...
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How many of the critics have actually seen the car? I had a look around one last week and it seems fine to me for the price. The interior is perfectly acceptable and comfortable. The seating positon is fine for me as it's upright and quite high. The plastics don't seem any worse than most other lower-priced cars, and better than some.
I haven't driven one yet, and perhaps I may find it's awful, but until I do I'm not going to speculate, or parrot what other people say, especially any motoring journalists (Present company excepted HJ!) few of whom seem to be unbiased about any car they review.
imo the last British car maker left deserves to be cut a bit of slack. By all means report your own experiences, but what's the point of just repeating what a journalist says? The likely result is that some people are put off from even going to look at the car. Nothing gained, possibly a car factory lost.
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I've seen and sat in one. Utter rubbish. Felt like a Lada Riva.
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I haven't even seen one on the road yet!I suspect that speaks for itself. I wouldn't want to prejudge the little thing, but in principle, I don't think that a car maker can get away with trotting out dated technology. The buying public are just too sophisticated nowadays - and dare I say it, with lots of really good deals around on state of the art motors, very few people feel obliged to go 'bargain basement'. Let's face it, we're a relatively affluent nation - gone are the days when we saved up for years to try and afford basic mobility.
Graeme
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GoG,
"imo the last British car maker left deserves to be cut a bit of slack. By all means report your own experiences, but what's the point of just repeating what a journalist says? The likely result is that some people are put off from even going to look at the car. Nothing gained, possibly a car factory lost."
Well I don't think I have disagreed more with a paragraph.
British car makers only deserve to be successful if they turn out good cars and not by re-badging cars whose specification alone is dismal. HJ summed it up earlier when he said:-
"Looks like they'll have to drop the starter price to £4,000 or end up with fields of the things.
I really hope that elderly people do not get hoodwinked into buying these cars out of misplaced patriotism. Very misplaced, in this case. We have Backroomers changing insurers because they switched their call centres to India. So why should we buy 'Rovers' made in India?"
I have been more critical of motoring journalists than most. However, by and large, they influence most of us and based on their opinions we select models to test. In fact journalists affect our opinions on almost everything - I have never met Saddam Hussain or his sons, but I am prepared to believe I should not have had them as members of my club!
IMO British journalists bend over backwards to be nice to 'British' cars - even if it is only to keep the advertisers sweet. That a new 'British' car has been so roundly slated speaks volumes.
C
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Talking of fields of them (CR), you are not wrong.
Theres a flower bed full of them waiting to be picked to go to a dealer. But with Panda there are no fields, they say there is a six week waiting list for them. The next thing Rovers or Fords will have to worry about is the new 'IDEA' from Fiats due shortly.
Maybe another nail in the waiting for the City ??
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With the Fiat Panda being not far off £6000 and getting rave reviews (even JC liked it, see Times Review from last sunday) the city rover will have a seriously hard time selling well. I think that they are about 3 years too late with this car.
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An A-Class or a CityRover and £6k? That's easy - I'd take the CityRover and £6k and use the change to buy a Panda or a Hyundai Getz.
And then maybe auction the CityRover on ebay and see what I got for it.
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One of the big selling points of the CR touted as justification for the price was it having 5 doors. The Panda I saw down the road had 5 doors, nice cabin styling, and lots of extras such as electric windows and air bags all missing from the base City Rover. And a 3 year warranty will cushion against potential Fiat reliability.
PS: Which insurers outsource to India? I wouldn't want to deal with them thanks. Nothing against India in particular, just outsourcing.
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Even if they were cheaper because their costs are lower? Would you not buy something over the internet because you are putting shop assistants out of work?
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If you want to see one, pop-in to a "Welcome Break" service station.
I saw my first City Rover at South Mimms the other day - it didn't look too bad. But let's face it, it the problem isn't so much quality as price.
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Cardew, I have just typed out a long response, but then I deleted it because, to be honest, I just can't be bothered. Please continue to put down any car you like, and I'll continue to make up my own mind using my own experience, rather than blindly believe what others tell me.
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I can see in a few months time all the people like GrumpyOldGit and the members of the MG-Rover forum blaming us for the CityRover poor sales.
At least Lada knew their products were poor so they sold them at the proper price. If you want to get market share back there are two ways to do it, have a good product or sell your product cheap. Fiat with the Panda by doing both these things so good luck to them.
If people want to buy something they will, it doesn't matter what other people say about them, just look at how many people buy Renaults and write to Honest John at the Telegraph. Most of them must have read HJ's column before buying the things (perhaps they don't think the problems will happen to them, so take no notice ?).
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My point is not restricted to the CR or any other car. I'm trying to say that it's rather a pity that people are knocking a car they haven't yet tried simply because journalists don't like it.
I go to the cinema a lot. I do not read film critics reviews before going because films that I thoroughly enjoy I later find have been marked down by the critics. Fine, that's their opinion, but I'm, not going to change my thoughts because of theirs.
I use the same logic with cars. Until I have personal experience of a car, I will not make up my mind about it, and certainly won't speak about it as if I was stating facts, rather than the regurgitated opinions of someone else.
Actually I do think much blame for poor sales can be levelled at people who talk down a car. If critisism is based on personal experience, fine. If it isn't, what's the point? maybe to make the speaker feel clever? I don't know as I don't understand why it's done.
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"Nothing against India in particular, just outsourcing."
So one has nothing against the Panda outsourced to Poland ?
Anyway, the CityRover was never intended to be a Rover or for Europe. It's purpose is totally different than what Rover want - i.e. rugged budget transportation with space. The main issue is price - lower the price tag and it will be competitive.
BTW - all industry in British India was "outsourced" to the UK.
At least , the current outsourcing proposals are in a free competitive spirit and not by decree. I note that some of Clive's loot is up for auction.
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"Nothing against India in particular, just outsourcing."
So one has nothing against the Panda outsourced to Poland ?
Anyway, the CityRover was never intended to be a Rover or for Europe. It's purpose is totally different than what Rover want - i.e. rugged budget transportation with space. The main issue is price - lower the price tag and it will be competitive.
BTW - all industry in British India was "outsourced" to the UK.
At least , the current outsourcing proposals are in a free competitive spirit and not by decree. I note that some of Clive's loot is up for auction.
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"Nothing against India in particular, just outsourcing."
So one has nothing against the Panda outsourced to Poland ?
The Panda is not outsourced to Poland. It is made in Poland by an Italian firm. If a UK car was competitive, then I would buy it. (Actually the Micra is pretty good!)
Outsourcing is generally used to mean the moving of service functions esp. call centres, but also accounts, banking backroom functions, helpdesk support and IT functions to another country where labour is cheap. India has a highly skilled motivated workforce, competent in speaking English, and willing to work at less than 1/10 of UK wages. Many Indian engineers I work with are extremely capable.
When I buy fruit and veg I try and buy British. For one thing it's fresher. When I use an insurer, I prefer to choose one that uses UK based call centres. That is my choice and I am free to exercise it. I am happy to pay a little more - if need be - to support the UK, but not when it comes to something expensive like a car.
BTW I am stating the obvious, but outsourcing is becoming the great leveller and will help drive the economies of the third world.
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GoG.
"Until I have personal experience of a car, I will not make up my mind about it,"
It depends how you define "personal experience _ a test drive or owning one.
Spending - and possibly wasting - a few pounds on a cinema ticket is rather different to spending and certainly wasting a few thousand pounds on new C R.
Even if one ignored the virtually unanimous condemnation of the C R by motoring scribes its specification for the price is sufficient to rule it out of consideration.
C
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It depends how you define \"personal experience _ a test drive or owning one.
A test drive, or at least going to see one. How can you ciritsise something you have no experience of?
Spending - and possibly wasting - a few pounds on a cinema ticket is rather different to spending and certainly wasting a few thousand pounds on new C R.
Who would buy a car without trying it first? The point was nothing to do with buying but about blindly following other\'s opinions.
Even if one ignored the virtually unanimous condemnation of the C R by motoring scribes its specification for the price is sufficient to rule it out of consideration.
So a poorly specified car that runs for 200K is worse than a well specified one that dies after 25K? There are considerations other than specification when I\'m buying a car. (I am not talking about any specific cars here - it\'s just an example.)
You are still missing the point entirely. My comments are about the re-use of other people opinions, not the faults or merits of the CR. Anything can be destroyed if enough people \'bad mouth\' it. (I hate that expresion but can\'t think of a more appropriate one at the moment.)
I am not crusading on behalf of the CR. I\'ve only sat in one very briefly so have no firm opinion yet, other than it appears to be better than I expected. I do however like to see fair play, and a lot of this thread is certainly not that.
{Instead of creating your own quotes that just end up hiding what you have written, please use the \"Reply to this message\" button. After all, that it what it is there for!! DD}
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{Instead of creating your own quotes that just end up hiding what you have written, please use the \"Reply to this message\" button. After all, that it what it is there for!! DD}
Or even the "Quote Original Message" button.
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<< >>
A test drive, or at least going to look at one. How can one fairly critisise otherwise?
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My comment has nothing to do with buying a car. It is about the re-use of others opinions.
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Specification is not everything when buying a car. If a well-specced car lasts for 25K before serious failure, and a poorly-specced one lasts for 150K, which is better? (No particular cars, just to make a point.)
You seem to be missing my main point entirely, and you also seem to dislike the CR simply because you have been told to.
I am not crusading on behalf of the CR. My only personal experience of one is a quick look round and a sit inside so I have no firm opinion yet, other than it seems better than I expected given the press reports. I do however believe in fair play, and much of this thread is certainly not that.
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Thanks DD - I couldn't work out what was going on!
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I'm puzzled.
No one is suggesting (surely) that we meekly follow the opinions of motoring journos.
However:
1. there are so many cars out there, that one needs to make a shortlist somehow;
2. although they journos overpraise some cars, if they say something's a dog, it often has four legs and a tail.
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I'm puzzled. No one is suggesting (surely) that we meekly follow the opinions of motoring journos.
No I don't think anyone is suggesting that. I am suggesting that some people are repeating what journalists write as if it is based on their own knowledge, for example how awful the CR is without having seen one.
Would you really make a short list based on journalists reviews? I suppose that some people must, and as the CR is slated before being seen it presumably won't make many short lists. It doesn't seem logical to me but each to his own.
When selecting a car the first question I ask is, do I like the way it looks? The second is can I afford it? Then, can I afford to run it? Answer yes to all 3 and it's test drive time. If that goes well, it's sold. I have no interest at all in what anyone else may think of the car. My current car did not fare well with some journalists, but I think it's brilliant and that their opinions are wrong.
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Would you really make a short list based on journalists reviews? I suppose that some people must, and as the CR is slated before being seen it presumably won't make many short lists. It doesn't seem logical to me but each to his own.
I think most people do, to an extent. I tend to - in most classes of car there are frequently 12 or more competitors. I have neither the time or inclination to look at or test drive this number. I'll therefore be influenced by press and other opinions to settle on 2 or 3 models I'll then make a decision myself on.
Although I'm interested in cars, motoring and driving I find the whole process of viewing cars and deaing with dealers tedious and time consuming. I have to admit that out of the last 5 cars I've bought only one could I be bothered to test drive.
As it happens, most of the respected auto press (and I pretty much count out most newspapers from this) very rarely slate a car. They might not praise it all that much but it is rare for somebody like, for example, Autocar to come down on a car too heavily. Off the top of my head the only two cars Autocar have really said were bad value total underperformers in the last year have been the CityRover and the W12 VW Phateon.
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I thinks its case of GrumpyOldGit not liking journalists, if you don't want to talk about something then don't, don't try and stop the rest of us from talking about it.
We are not just discussing what journalists reviews but the facts that are clear to see. Facts such as specification, MPG, performance, price and the competition regarding these factors.
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GoG,
"Would you really make a short list based on journalists reviews?"
I think most people make a short list based on their requirements first. Size, purchase price, safety, reliability, performance, running costs etc etc. We all have our own priorities and for me the car's appearance would come way down the list.
I suspect most people then avidly read as many journalists reviews and long term tests as possible; these have a huge influence on their choice. For instance a car that fits my requirement for sporting performance is the Alfa and I am pretty sure that a test drive would have impressed me enormously. However I dismissed it from consideration because of the reputation it has for unreliability and high depreciation. Now I am aware that some people on this site are great fans of Alfa; as are many journalists. However the latter also comment unfavourably on unreliability and depreciation and that is enough for me to remove it from my short list.
C
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Strangely, several posts in this thread have referred to the CityRover as having been universally panned by critics. It hasn't been. On the other hand, those reviews that didn't pan the car get dismissed out of hand. So it does seem as if a lot of people really don't want to like this car!
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"Strangely, several posts in this thread have referred to the CityRover as having been universally panned by critics. It hasn't been. On the other hand, those reviews that didn't pan the car get dismissed out of hand. So it does seem as if a lot of people really don't want to like this car!"
I've read lots of reviews. Most say it is overpriced and has a poor spec. that is not competitive. The two favourable reviews compared the car against expensive alternatives. One of these reviews compared it with the Mercedes A4 which cost £6K more. The other IIRC (in the Telegraph I think) compared it to cars that cost ~£9K which seemed really really odd. Reviewers who compare it to other cars in the same class conclude that it is too expensive.
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One of the weeklies, AutoExpress I think, tested it against a Daihatsu Charade and the CityRover came out on top.
To be fair, overpriced does not mean it's a bad car. If Rover throw in a few more goodies, or change the price structure (there's too much of a gap between the base model and the next one up IMO), it'll be more competitive. But perhaps they don't need to? Some dealers are reporting selling all they can get apparently. I've only seen one on the road so far though, so I guess we'll have to wait and see.
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The new CityRover a little overpriced I would agree and the interior could be a little better, however overall much better looking car than the Panda in my view and an engine which is a bit beyond lawnmower size unlike the Panda.
Saw one on the road today for the first time looked pretty good in Red. I do think that they should do one for 7K which has the main essentials such as PAS, decent CD Player, and Central Locking.
As for the Roverised Metro I think it was a pretty good car when it came out in 89, however could have been world beating if Rover had been given the money needed to give it a new body and chassis. Unfortanatly safety wise time caught up with it but it was still a good car in many respects.
Same applies to the Saxo, poor safety rating by modern standards, but then an old design what can you expect.
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Yawn...
Is this thread heading for the two double oh?
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LOL! Never before has so much been written, by so many, about a car for which people cared so little...
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I seen one for the first time. My local fiat dealer has purchased a few which is the first time they have ever done that with a non-fiat car.
They have the mid spec one's priced at £6795 - although it does look attractive, more so than the new punto.
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The dealers don't purchase cars for Demo, they are supplied models from the Main agent or Factory for Demo's. If response is poor they are returned as 'dealer returns'.
What new Punto?, the present model has been out for some 6 months, and now shortly there will a look alike 'Idea'.
If one wants to worry about cars being out-sourced, BMW Z are from Canada, Suzuki from Hungary & Spain, Fords all over the EC. But they are made by the original manufacture and not rebadged from another manufacturer.
As I said before some of the comments of specifications in these cars by the so called motor experts in the mags are misleading, 'sliding rear seats for the Panda' I have'nt seen one, 'No radio/cd for the CR' they are retro fitted as standard in the UK for the UK market.
Are going to pass the 200 mark with this Topic??
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i meant the current punto with the square-80's japanese headlights. not sure why they messed with the front so much, it was attractive, where now it resembles a suzuki alto.
although something tells me a cityrover would be far more reliable than my current punto (late 03 mark 2). been to the dealers 4 times already, and currently still there 2 weeks on, although i dont mind i get to run up miles on their courtesy car.
all i need now is rover to make the price realistic and ill buy one. 5 and half grand for the mid spec seems about right.
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I was told today by a source in the trade that it costs Tata £800 to manufacture the CR and sell them to Rover for £3500 each.
Nice profit if its true.
Also from the same source, one came in to the country on three wheels, one fell off unloading from its ship from India. Everyone thought it was another new model into the range?
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I,m sorry to say this , but anybody who buys one of these should be sectioned under the mental health act!
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Hmm People who should be sectioned under the mental healh act are those who complain about a lack of manufacturing in this country and then buy dull boring and massively overated german kak like the volkswagon golf.
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i agree, the worst motorists are the one's who pay an extra 10k for a people carrier with a VW badge on it, instead of buying a kia alternative with just as high spec.
pete's is 51 plate kia sedona 83k 2.9d with lots of goodies, neighbour snob is 51 VW sharon 1.9d done 34k on sunday.
petes - only issue, new clutch at 75k and new front tyres - normal wear and tear.
snobs - new engine mounts needed early on, electric window faults (happened twice now), fan belt failure, windscreen motor freezed, battery in remote lock key ran out already, 3 headlamps!
However he still claims its the only make worth getting, and says he will only change from VW when BMW make a people carrier - he has a long wait with his over-priced seat then!
good luck city rover - but drop the price and increase the spec!
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AutumnBoy wrote "The dealers don't purchase cars for Demo, they are supplied models from the Main agent or Factory for Demo's. If response is poor they are returned as 'dealer returns'"
Nah, don't think so!
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groups.msn.com/honestjohn - Pictures say a thousand words.....
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I'm not usually in favour of euthanasia, but the fact that this thread refuses to die in spite of all the evidence is making me have second thoughts.
HJ: give the moderators a 12-bore and tell 'em to do the decent thing...
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Ok.......whatever.....
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groups.msn.com/honestjohn - Pictures say a thousand words.....
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As much as i hate to extend this thread any further, Pulling Power on ITV1 have just reviewed this car, and not one single optimistic word was mentioned throughout the 5-10 minute road test. It really was the most scathing review i have ever seen!
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I watched Pulling Power to, Mike said one good thing about size but attacked it on everything else, not just like a normal review this really was scathing. There didn't seem to be much about the Panda (so much time was spent attacking the CR) but he said it was like sitting in a limo with great build and quality.
He did point out that the CR does have a place in the market, 4 and at most 5 k which sums up what many of us have said on this thread.
At the end he pointed to the Panda and said "Winner", then to the CR "Loser".
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Are going to pass the 200 mark with this Topic??
Nope
No Dosh
aka Alan_moderator and bored to tears by this thread.
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