Can a CC PCN be enforced if sign wasn't crossed?

Honest John Back Room » Legal matters
What is life like with your car? Let us know and win £500 in John Lewis vouchers | No thanks
View Threaded
Wed 28 Dec 2022 04:20
Can a CC PCN be enforced if sign wasn't crossed? - antivirtel

Hi,

I've recently got a PCN for "entering" to the London Congestion Charge zone, whereas I stopped before the line of the sign and reversed out (I was in the street only 1-2m). It's even visible on the PCN photos (that I reversed out). See photo, the line of the sign is 2-3m more in, that just caught that I was about to turn in: us-noi.v-cdn.net/6031891/uploads/editor/03/turzsxd...g

They already rejected my representation with some BS that they don't actually need to make sure I cross the line of the sign, they can put the cameras wherever they want to take the best pictures, and charge as many people as they can, starting at £80 each. I even provided GPS evidence that I didn't actually drive in the zone.

I'm thinking of taking it further to court (appeal), but I'm not sure if I can find any actual sentence/paragraph in any traffic acts/highway code which says the line of the sign matters.

Can a PCN be enforced if the line of the sign wasn't crossed?

Does anyone have any experience with the appeal/court? What are my chances

Thank you!

Also posted on: forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6413464/ca...1

Edited by antivirtel on 28/12/2022 at 04:22

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 28 Dec 2022 08:05
Can a CC PCN be enforced if sign wasn't crossed? - Bromptonaut

Whatever the order was setting up the charge it will have a map defining the exact boundary. It will probably also define how that boundary is shown. Might it be the red/white C on the road surface.

I cannot find the order on line quickly but TFL's own map is here:

content.tfl.gov.uk/congestion-charge-zone-map.pdf

If you did not cross the line then no charge is payable.

If you crossed it then the charge is payable even if your stay was short. The boundary is defined by the 'inner' side of the Ring Road comprising (eg) City Road>Euston Road>Marylebone Road.

If you appeal it goes to a Tribunal - www.londontribunals.gov.uk/

It's totally independent of the Councils/TfL and the Adjudicators are solicitors or barristers with a reasonable period in the profession before being eligible for appointment.

I went there in 2019 over a parking charge in Camden where signage of (a) pay/display and (b) resident permit bays was poor. I won.

Had all my photographs etc beforehand and attended in person; I cannot over emphasise how important that is for your chances of success.

Having looked at your picture it's fairly simple. If you did not enter Grafton Street or Tottenham Court Road and remained in Grafton Way then you're OK. As soon as you enter either of those streets you're probably in the zone and BANG.

Edited by Bromptonaut on 28/12/2022 at 08:30

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 28 Dec 2022 19:32
Can a CC PCN be enforced if sign wasn't crossed? - Adampr

I'd definitely argue. A few years ago, I got a PCN from TFL for using a loading bay....for loading. It has a 20 minute loading time and they told me they hadn't seen me return to the car in the first 3 minutes so that meant I can't have been loading. I argued that I was loading (I was) and it took me more than 3 minutes to collect the item (sofa) I was picking up. I was done and dusted in around 10 minutes. They then told me that it was my responsibility to prove that I was loading or pay the charge. I asked if it was my responsibility to also prove that I wasn't murdering anyone....

Anyway, after getting my London Assembly member involved, they finally relented but they still couldn't understand why they were wrong. They're either crooks or stupid, so don't let them win.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 28 Dec 2022 19:44
Can a CC PCN be enforced if sign wasn't crossed? - Adampr

Although....Isn't Grafton Way a one way street? I'm not sure I'd be telling anyone I'd reversed down it.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 28 Dec 2022 23:00
Can a CC PCN be enforced if sign wasn't crossed? - antivirtel

Thanks all for the replies!

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 29 Dec 2022 08:01
Can a CC PCN be enforced if sign wasn't crossed? - Bromptonaut

Although....Isn't Grafton Way a one way street? I'm not sure I'd be telling anyone I'd reversed down it.

My read is that the OP turned off Grafton Way, possibly into Tottenham Court Road, and reversed back to Grafton Way after spotting the CC signage.

There are some significant cases on London Tribunals website about the Congestion Charge and Low Emissions Zones:

www.londontribunals.gov.uk/ruc/key-cases

I don't think though that they help much here.

Edited by Bromptonaut on 29/12/2022 at 08:21

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 29 Dec 2022 12:51
Can a CC PCN be enforced if sign wasn't crossed? - Crickleymal

.

There are some significant cases on London Tribunals website about the Congestion Charge and Low Emissions Zones:

www.londontribunals.gov.uk/ruc/key-cases

I don't think though that they help much here.

The first one is interesting (for limited values of interesting). Baroness Walmsley thought she'd paid for two congestion charges but had entered her registration number incorrectly. So she was charged/fined. She appealed and was turned down. So she took it to court and lost. How many thousands of pounds did that cost?

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 29 Dec 2022 13:08
Can a CC PCN be enforced if sign wasn't crossed? - Bromptonaut

The first one is interesting (for limited values of interesting). Baroness Walmsley thought she'd paid for two congestion charges but had entered her registration number incorrectly. So she was charged/fined. She appealed and was turned down. So she took it to court and lost. How many thousands of pounds did that cost?

At the time I had some professional involvement in oversight of various Tribunals including London Tribunals. Baroness Walmsley's case was actually really interesting to those in the club!!

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Looking for a garage you can trust? Honest John's Good Garage Guide has thousands of reader recommended garages, plus how-to guides and tips on servicing.

The Good Garage Guide