Im looking for a new car and have also worked in the motor industry , for Toyota motor manufacturing, making the new Corrolla and old Avensis and before that for a joint Ford / VW francchise.
I went to look at some cars today. Fiat Stilo and Nissan Almera and Im staggered at how poor the quality of the cars interiors were, the cost accountants must have got a stranglehold over Fiat and Nissan because the plastics in both were really flimsy and had no real attempt at style or graining. Not a patch on the Corrolla, the only snag being I cannot afford a new Corrolla. Proud bolt heads in the Almera cabin and seat fabrics that looked wafer thin topped it for me and christ the roof lining creased where i touched it followed by the roof light falling out. I was at a car supermarket and also saw a brand new Rover 25 ZR with panel gaps you could drive through. Has anyone else come across this quality issue? I mean nobody even bothers to paint the underbonnet area these days it just looks so tacky nand offputting!
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Ok so maybe im having a bad hair day but it appears that speed and ease of production is the only governing factor when I worked for Toyota we only had 57 seconds to check a car before the next one came along Its simply not enough time and in the car industry time is money when a 57 second delay or line stoppage costs £15000. And most of the cars produced end up in fields for storage as there are not enough buyers to satisfy the rate of production. car supermarkets wouldnt exist if there wasnt excess stock since the franchised ealers would sell one for one every car made and its the brokers and supermarkets that soak up the excess stock, even though many of these cars are "B" rank. ie have faults that the franchise network doesnt want or cant sort out, so they are sold on as pre-registered to boost sales figures.
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I always thought that pre-registered were new cars that had been registered simply to make up the dealer's sales target. I didn't know that they could be faulty. What sort of faults are you talking about?
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Sorry, but having been in the motor business well over two decades the 'B' rank stuff mentioned above is just not true. I've heard it said often times that the manufacturers send out the 'faulty' cars to rental companies and supermarkets etc. - but it is nonsense.
The Almera is a really good, well-made and reliable car. The body is very strong (witness its good scores in the NCAP tests). OK, the trim may not be too fancy, but they seem to stand up to daily wear-and-tear pretty well, and for the price you pay (and equipment you get) they are an absolute bargain.
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John, On a recent guided tour around Toyota we were given a presentation before and after.
Emphasised was that every Toyota is built to order and that you won't find them lined up in fields.
I was impressed with the attention to detail but never having the opportunity to visit other manufacturers assembly plants have nothing to compare.
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Posted a thread about a neighbour\'s new Rover 45 recently. Very poor quality finish evident in places including a large paint run I still can\'t believe was missed at the factory! I\'d rather pay a few extra quid and have better quality - can\'t see the point in winning, then losing a customer.
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Regarding the "B rank" stuff you mention. Sorry mate but it is true we had between 10 and 40 cars a shift that were "B ranked" out of a total production figure of around 400 cars a shift. The faults were of very varying types including dents in bodywork. Paint coming off internal surfaces due to not adhering to the primer base coat (this was a major issue at the time and had resulted in a £3 million pound law suit against Toyota in switzerland) You could run your hand over the internal tailgate slam panel (Corrolla) and the paint would just flutter off.. It is true that mostly Toyota build to order IN THE UK market but this is not always the case as there always has to be a surfiet of cars to supply showroom cars and demonstrators as well as fleet orders which may be "open ended". But you are right in suggesting that in the case of Toyota excess vehicles are minimal. I was thinking more of certain other makers like Fiat, Renault and Peugeot who are legendary for "growing cars" in storage fields. You are also incorrect in assuming that "B ranked" cars arent passed out of the franchise network. Cars with faults which cannot be attributed to factory production, ie a dent or several dents in the bodywork which cannot be traced by to the works and which the dealer regards asexpensive to fix are passed on to supermarkets. although you are correct in saying that hire or rental companies do NOT get "B ranked" stuff. They often up-spec cars and tend to buy in attractive colours which their accountants know will fetch more at auction than base spec beige stuff when time for disposal comes.if you see what I mean.
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Also I forgot to mention that when I was first taken on I was put on the internal rustproofing process and the first 10 cars at the begining of the shift and thereafter following statutory breaks (3) didnt get their treatment applied properley or at all because the wax injectors relied upon a water heating system to keep the stuff fluid which allowed the wax to cool down when the equipemnt was left during breaks so it came out clotted and cold and didnt reach the points it was supposed to as it wouldnt flow properley meaning no protection to the bonnet and door internals so rounghly 10% of shift production wasnt protected. Also the robots that applied the final coat of paint were secondhand from the parent comapnies Japanese plant and were 10 years old when installed 10 years ago which makes them 20 years old now and we had persistent problems with an orangepeel finish to the paint. Our plant managers greatest aspiration was to obtain and finish as good as a VW Golf's so........they went out and bought 2 Golfs to strip down and scrutinise but in a twist of irony found a big paint repair on the bonnet of one of them! LOL
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Well, John, you will certainly set the cat amongst the pigeons with these stories and lose Toyota a few sales in the process. I take it you don't work for them any more then...
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I've had a Toyota Corolla since January this year and although I haven't had anything horrible go wrong, I am still going back to the dealer with knocks, creaks, buzzes, groans, whines etc. The dealer just can't sort the problems and I'm not sure Toyota UK really want to know-they just keep relying on the dealer to sort problems I don't think he knows how to sort without help from Toyota.
Give me back my Leon any day.
And don't get me started on Audi for quality-two A2's in less than a year and both appaling.
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Read into this what you will , but the New Corolla costs 30% less to produce than the old model.
I remember many occasions when the wheelarche spray robots would break down and not spray paint under the arches we used to rush around like blue fluffy dice flies with a paintgun filled with blackout, which isnt a proper paint blasting the arches to make it look like they had been done, the only snag is blackout isnt like topcoat and easily comes off after stone blasting. its only purpose is to give a \"finished\" appearence to the wheelarche area and the only stuff under the blackout was primer.
I remember many many times when workers were dying for a number 1 but couldnt leave the line, we were lucky because we just nipped between a line of cars a did it on the factory floor, but others used to nip behind a press and do a No 1 into their drinks bottle, leaving the line was verbotten.
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John
I think you are trying to stir things up a bit here. All makers have cars which reach the end of the line and require 'rework', that's nothing new. These are sorted out before they leave the factory - it costs a lot more to fix the problem 'in the field' than at the factory. They will not knowingly let faulty cars out into the sales network - be it supermarket or franchised dealers.
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Im not trying to stir things up at all Im just telling the truth as seen and known from the viewpoint of someone who has worked at the sharp end and who really knows what happens because ive literally done it. Yes its true that many cars do indeed need to be reworked before leaving the factory, but its also true that "B ranked " cars exist and some cannot be sorted and are sent out with "problems". You are quite right that items are easier and cheaper to sort at the factory if for no other reason that the dealer is allowed to charge the factory a set amount for every repair his staff have to do to the car at the franchise and of course it is in the interests of the factory to minimise repairs because of this "back - charging" and Toyota are still one of the best at doing this. To be fair id much rather drive a Toyota than something like a 206, 307, Stilo, or suchlike. In the end it all comes down to degree.....and its a documented fact that Toyotas have far fewer ongoing problems than most of their competitors. Certainly the old Avensis was remarkably trouble-free in this respect. I think it would be an extremely interesting comparison to be a fly on the wall for a day at Nissans Sunderland plant and compare it with a day in Fiats Punto plant. although im pretty sure of the results.
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So have Toyota finaly stopped using rubber-bellow gearshift gaiters from 1970's vans?
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I can confirm that what John Sheldon sounds exactly like what happened at the Derby plant when a good lady friend of mine worked there, most of the line staff hated it, the employer treated them really bad, you were allowed no life other than TOYOTA...TOYOTA....
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every new Toyota CAR is totally different to what went before and there is absolutelly no commonality of trim parts, although some engines are "carried-over" the fact that some are called "avensis or "Corolla" shouldnt lead you into thinking they are a "development" of a previous vehicle. They are all new in all respects. The names just denote a "sector" name for the project code, everyone knows an "avensis" is a medium sized family car, so for continuity of marketting the name is carried over even though the new and old cars have nothing in common.
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HJ im not just being devils advocate for its own sake. I just beleive in open honest debate, and im not afraid to tackle controvertial topics, such as s************s etc. Id much rather have people reacting and originating topics of value and I firmly believe that open debate and argument serves a "multi-function, by raising interest and at the same time "educating".. Knowledge is power......in the right hands.
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I've visited plenty of car factories over the past 15-20 years - in the UK, Germany and USA. I must confess that I've never actually worked on a line, or visited a Toyota plant.
In general I always found the standard of assembly pretty high (this includes Rover in the BAe days and even LandRover). I've been involved in sorting out production problems - mostly these occur through poor design rather than actual 'slipshod assembly'. Design for assembly (DFA) is obvioulsy critical in the motor industry - but poor design still happens. GM tried to get around the problem with their 'slow build' initiative - but it didn't seem to help that much.
Sure, things do go wrong. Cars get damaged on the line, trim is hit a bit too hard and cracks, cable is tugged too hard and connector comes loose. But there are so many stages of inspection these days that the cars normally get pulled out and reworked. It is not in the manufacturer's interest to knowingly let faulty cars go out of the door. The cars will be under warranty and one major warranty claim will not only easily negate any profit made on the particular car but also damage the maker's reputation. It would be more economical to scrap the car.
Having been directly involved in the industry for the best part of 20 years I can say that cars are incomparably better built nowadays than they ever were in the past.
I do agree that car workers in British plants are treated very badly - but that is a reflection of British culture. In return for investing in the UK, the 'transplant' companies were promised a compliant pool of docile workers from which to pick their workforce. By and large that's what they got.
The difference in the way that the British and German car workers are treated by their respective managements is quite astonishing to witness.
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Transfer of manufacturing-line equipment from one plant to another is nothing new. So long as the equipments work to a required tolerance (which can be different for different cars), the equipments are up for the job, whether it is brand-new or 10 year-old.
However, I have to admit that top-end Japanese built Japanese car (all Lexus, all Acura, al Infinity, Toyota Camry & Crown, Nissan QX & Cedric, Mazda 929, etc.) tend to the best in terms of quality.
Actually, I want to ask why Toyota & Nissan does not import their top-end rear-drive models? E.g. Toyota Crown or Nissan Cedric.
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Gazza
I don't think that the Jap badges 'cut it' with the up-market car buyers - they want BMW or MB on the badge.
I must say that I'd love some of the up-market Japanese cars to come to the UK - like the new Skyline and Cima. Nissan make some beautiful large engines and the novel Extroid transmission is apparently a superb piece of engineering.
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I hope the new Corolla has a better gearbox than my 2001 (old shape) one ...
It now has, according to a Toyota mechanic, and duff bearing (s) in the gearbox, which will cost £300+ to fix, as 'we won't know until strip the 'box down which bearing has gone'. Sounds like there's a tin of rusty nails in the footwell when I drive now ... I have written to Toyota UK to compain and ask them to chip in ... not hopeful, though ....
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HJ had a link to :
www.reliabilityindex.co.uk
on the news, which is interesting reading ....
But this is based on faults PLUS cost of repairs.
I wonder which car HJ readers' think is the most reliable - maybe we can do a poll ... I'm thinking just faults on cars from new up to, say, 3 years, not repair cost or dealer/servicing hassles ... would be interesting ...
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Aprilia I agree with what you say about assembly etc I think we are saying the same thing from a different perspective Its just that JIT assembly has a weakness and that is .any part of the chain breaks down or any parts are late "in-position" then the whole line stops. One night we were sent home mid shift because the plastic dashboard moulder had broken down , as no spare items or any store of dashboards were kept, everyone in the factory stopped. JIT is excellent when everything does work, but one problem and the lines stop.Having said that when things were right , they were very right and we turned out nearly 500 units per shift but some days a broken machine for just one componant dropped the shift total down to 300 or so. If there is any weakness in JIT it is the rigidity of the way it works and the complete lack of any stored componants to keep things running until said item was fixed. I dont beleive thats its cheaper to keep 3500 workers kicking heels for an hour or so instead of "stockholding, but I guess some accountant in an office somewhere must have put their fugures through the mill and come out with the existing system.
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Aprillia - What are the differences that you noted as per between the way that British assembly plant workers were treated and those German counterparts.?
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In some ways, but it seems mainly aimed at older cars. For example, the Yaris isn't in there at all even though it's been on the go 4 years now. The other discussions have pointed out that it only reflects the actual cost of repairs without factoring in inconvenience etc.
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