Well if you believe what you read in the press, we could be facing these again before long.
What do you reckon people ?
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we could be facing these again before long.
Or should we really consider becoming part of them?
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I hope not. I think these thugs should be locked away, or put in stocks on village greens with a copious supply of water and sponges so that passers by can show their appreciation.
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As I no longer cover the miles I did a year or two back, I'm no longer spending nearly £8000 annually on diesel.Therefore don't really see a problem with this small rise in duty.
Bet most 'normal' motorists feel the same, regularly spilling more than the same amount, around the pumps, in the supermarket.
As for blockades & other disruption, I recall, on my way back from Colchester auctions, during the last fiasco, 2 artics blocking the A12, at snails pace.Fortunatly it was in the other direction, I clocked the hold up at over 3 miles!! These drivers should have been pulled off the road & prosecuted for this type of action.
VB
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Last time we had blockades there was a lot of ill feeling for the protesters from the motorist who couldn't get home, or in my case couldn't get to work and had to loose 3 days pay, there are loads of ways to protest but don't hurt the people you want support from.
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I enjoyed the last blockades. Everyone drove more sedately, cycling became a pleasant way to get around town, there was less traffic in general and the school run outside my house was almost non existent, which meant I could get out of my driveway between eight and nine in the morning. I wonder how those kids got to school? Oh yes, they walked. Now why can't they do that normally? Fuel blockades are the best way possible of demonstrating how much better it would be if we used our cars less.
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Two points
1. Most of the protesters would probably not protest if they felt that this extra tax would result in an improvement to the transport system (or other public services)instead of being swallowed up in an increase in bureaucracy that only benefits the bureaucrats
2. Don't forget that while "we" may not notice the increase or can afford it, there are lots of poorer people for whom it may make the difference between being able to run a car and not being able to run a car, or makes a significant difference to their cost of living (or cost of running a business)
While not condoning the blockades, I do sympathise with their views about yet another increase in a very indiscriminate tax - hits the poor more than the rich.
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Biggest problem is how much tax we pay in total in UK. I would rather have 1p more tax per litre than 1 percent more on income tax - but we should be paying less tax overall anyway due to extra revenue to exchequer from North Sea Oil - or so we were all told about 20 years ago.
Fuel duty down to 5 p per litre please and income tax down to 15p in the pound for lower-rate tax payers.
...and VAT back to 10 percent (for those of us who remember those days - in fact it was only 8 percent at one time - less than half what it is now).
No blockades please - last time I came back from holiday abroad and couldn't put any fuel into my car to get to work :-((
Don't upset those who support lower tax.
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It is self evident that blockades are/were a bad idea. If they were effective at changing legislation why would they be being mooted now?
As for the idea that they were a good thing because it meant we all walked places. Yes that undeniably happened and fewer car journeys for non-essential trips would make the world a better place, but it's like arguing for food rationing because then we'd all be that much heathier.
Finally, please please God spare us from the return of that sanctimonious Cornish farmer who claimed to be speaking for me and millions like me by organising blockades.
Aplogies to all Cornish people if he was from Devon or somewhere else - I'm from up North so can't distinguish SW accents that well!
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PU,
You are in better position than I to comment accurately on the legal bit but I seem to recall last time one reason the fuel protests were so effective, and had so much man in the street support, is that they were conducted completely legally without any of the "rent-a-mob."
Seem to recall the law has been changed since then making the previous tactics difficult if not impossible. Not sure of the details there.
What worries me is this. Let us suppose a publicly supported blockade starts. Would the changes in the law ensure that a police vs public adversarial confrontation is almost bound to develop for the worse, thus potentially increasing the public / police divide?
Let us not forget, the police can police, and the government can govern only with the consent of the people.
So personally I am not sure that fuel blockades will happen, and if they do that they will be effective to any extent, but I do fear for the consequences for the nation as a whole if they do happen.
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Who do these unelected people think they're represtenting? Not me, that's for sure.
Let them stand at a proper election if they lay claim to popular support.
Terry
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Revenue from North Sea oil is dropping off rapidly.
The North Sea is in decline anyway but it was killed stone dead by Gordon Brown in 2002 when he introduced a 10% supplementary corporation tax charge on North Sea profits. The 10% charge is on profits excluding interest charges so the average CT bill for a North Sea company is now roughly 42%, if the field pays PRT as well, as most North Sea production does then the tax charge is around 72%. The majors (Exxon, Shell, BP) told him not to do it but he did it anyway. The majors are now quietly selling out of the North Sea and the new companies coming in are buying existing production looking to make a profit by cutting costs. No one is exploring for new fields. The DTI is furious but Brown has demonstrated clearly that they have no power and don't count.
We will be importing crude within 10 years.
Meanwhile an industry that trained two generation of engineers and geologists is dying, the new entrants don't do nonsense like training... or final salary pensions schemes for that matter...
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Just another example of a major tax rise by this 'lot' that has had an adverse effect which will probably wind up costing us all a lot more in the future.
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"Who do these unelected people think they're represtenting? Not me, that's for sure."
More to the point, who are these people 'we' elected representing? it sure ain't us.
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It is bad enough having the price put up, and thus the prices of all transport and delivery of goods and services, without having mindless people with nothing better to do blocking the supply to the members of public. If they want to blockade something worthwhile try the Whitehall car pool where 2 Jags and his cronies get their transport that WE pay for. Inconvenience them and let us get on with our lives, please!
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Shouldn't the protests be aimed at the Government, not the oil companies? After all, it's GB who keeps upping the. Maybe we should blockade Westminster and stop all the MPs getting to work. Maybe the country would run better if that happened.
At the end of the day, there's only one way to do something about this - VOTE FOR SOMEONE ELSE!
Andy
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I think you're a bit naiive if you think voting for someone else will make any difference-not voting at all is a better as the increasing number of non-voters sends a worrying message to any government that there are increasingly large numbers of people who feel completely disenfranchised.
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Less politics, more motoring please.
DD.
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Lets not forget that the largest amount of objectors were from the haulage industry. The Continentals could fill up with diesel to come over here and operate cheaper than our own.
Many small hauliers in the UK were closing down as they couldn't compete with them. The real world where people were losing their jobs due to fuel taxes are more important than car owners and mums driving to school.
We are the easiest and softest people in the world to govern and good luck to the few who will go out to protest.
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Some hauliers going bust is NOT more importnat than 10 million people a day getting to work by car IMHO. Most businesses have to stand on their own resources or go bust - why should road haulage be any different? Make it pay or try something else! Or go to the continent, buy their cheap diesel, and make a living there!
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Joosisiqu
But at least we have a chance periodically to get rid of the ones who are elected. The self-appointed ones are just a pain in the backside who, short of criminal acts, we are stuck with.
Terry
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Didn't the ruling party get returned on the lowest percentage poll since 1919?
Didn't more people vote for BIG BROTHER than voted in the general election?
You get the government you deserve.
Now, back to motoring, before I suffer the warth of the mods ...
I watched on SKY during the last blocked, and there was some doofus (for want of a better word) saying "Well, we heard there was panic buying, so we thought we'd come down here and join the queue..." I almost wet myself - it's cretins like that which CAUSE panic buying!!!
My brother, who works in the south, and is in the medical field, was up at 4am one day to get some esential health work done, and said that when he was returning from the hospital at 5, there were people queueing already!
Maybe if everyone had bought exactly the same as they did in the umpteen previous weeks, maybe there wouldn't have been shortages ...
And maybe if the brain-dead public realised this, and realised that the protests made not one jot of difference, then they wouldn't be so silly.
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>>before I suffer the warth of the mods ...
Right, You want to be vrey wray of our warth.
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I htae teshe sracsatic bldooy mdoreatros!
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Ian
Agree entirely. But the point is at least someone voted for the government and we have the chance not to vote for them or to vote against them. This so-called people's fuel lobby are just self-appointed vigilantes.
Apropos panic buying, you're so right. Back in the 70s we had a sugar shortage over here and my mother-in-law (then future m-i-l) had 12lbs in her cupboards because there was some available at the co-op. The fact that she never used sugar hadn't occurred to her. Similarly with the toilet paper shortage about the same time. When my mother passed on in 1995 we found a suitcase full of the stuff under her bed - bought in at the time of the shortage!
So the mentality of the people queueing for an hour to put 17p of petrol in their tanks 3 years ago seems endemic. Surely that's all they burned whilst they were in the queue? I'm sure the answer is at such times is to put a MINIMUM purchase cost (say £15) on to stop these people.
Terry
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Thommo,
I reckon the Chancellor waived the 10% corp tax for mature North Sea fields but your right the industry is on it`s last legs.
I`am out on the Brents and reckon it`ll be over more or less by 2008,it`s only gas that keeps it going.
OPEC cutting production could result in furthur more significant rises as crude soars back to the $30+ mark.
Figure of 85p/litre have been whispered about for the forthcoming winter period.
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Interesting article in yesterday's Times. Out of 8 developed countries (USA, France, Germany etc.) the UK spends the least proportion of motoring taxes (including fuel tax) on roads and associated infrastructure.
One of the most annoying aspects of fuel tax increases is that virtually none of the tax increase goes towards road improvements etc.
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Alvin: They have a right to protest, but not to behave like terrorists, preventing people close to the breadline earning a living, preventing transplant organs getting to the destination, interfering with emergency services and so on. They call themselves The People's Fuel Lobby c.f. The Peoples Republic of China (brutal dictatorship) and The People's Republic of Korea (brutal dictatorship).
Bertj: Good point. A lot of the problems we have with traffic and housing are due to chronic underinvestment in roads and housing by the incumbent pseudo bunny hugging spin merchants.
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I wonder if we all got of our collective butt and went and joined the fuel blockades we might actually get something changed? Everyone complains about the price of fuel, or the bad government, but then does nothing about it. The problem is that too few people turn out so 'they' can say it's only a small minority so 'they' don't need to change what they are doing.
Driving slowly and holding up traffic is hardly terrorism, is it? If you were to be held up behind a march of protesters on foot walking through town, would they also be using 'bully-boy tactics? I was late for work one morning during the last round of protests, but was happy to hoot and wave to the truckers on the M4 who were causing the delay - they were trying to help all of us.
I feel much more animosity to the inattentive drivers who collide with other vehicles and cause delays.
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Leif, I presume you are refering to some latest group who represent themselves as the peoples fuel lobby. I don't know about these and have not seen any reference to them on the news.
I am writing on the protests of a few years ago when the refineries were blockaded by hauliers and farmers.
At this time if I recall correctly ambulance and other emergency services were not affected and were allowed fuel.
British industry has been decimated over the last 20 years by Political (EU, taxes, and one of these is fuel costs.
For Armitage to say that hauliers should simply move to the continent or compete is really impractical.
How does one compete when they have to pay far more than their competitors for fuel.
Among the millions who have to travel to work are people whose job depends on the haulage industry. More hauliers go out of business means less jobs for the British.
Virtually all business is interlinked in some manner and we all depend on each other. Simply to look at ones own predicament is a short sighted response, and until they themselves are affected means little to them.
Classic examples are our fisherman. A maritime nation and we now have virtually no fishing fleet. A Merchant navy, no longer..
Farming.. now yuppie retreats...Would the advice to compete be appropriate for these.
Protest is appropriate and not enough of it is done by ourselves over so many issues.
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Saw the news at lunchtime today, and they interviewed the bloke who's organising this protest where everyone is being asked to stop in their cars at 8:30am tomorrow morning.
Newsreader pointed out that most people in cars are stationary at that time in the morning anyway... protest bloke went strangely quiet.
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news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3150574.stm
BBC story here.
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hmm ... I'm surprised by the number speaking against protest.
Personally I believe the last blockades were successful by virtue of the fact that government did curb fuel tax to some extent and (now here's the real proof if you need it) legislated to prevent a recurrence. Voting in elections just doesn't work in cases like this.
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And now the tax is back up and legislation prevents re-occurrence - your interpretation of the word success is a new one on me
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Fuel blockades just loose us more money, the 3 days I had to take off from not being able to get to work cost me £400, what a good idea that seems. The company I work for lost £1000s due to lost production, we couldn't get our raw materials in and couldn't get goods out, and there was no one there to produce anything, and if we could have got all that we ran out of oil to fire the boilers.
Sorry lads but you won't get my support!!!
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Everyone is entitled to protest but no-one has any right to interfere with my ability to go about my daily business. These people represent only themselves. It is one step to mob rule and anarchy. Voting does work. If you don't like the current parties start your own and if it is so wonderful the voters will flock to you. Not voting just gives the impression that you don't care and opens the door to extremist parties.
It reminds me of the Student's Union many moons ago. Most people moaned that the Union didn't represent them but couldn't be bothered to turn up to the not-very-frequent meetings where things were voted on and decided. Therefore daft motions were passed pushed through by various organised groups.
Is a few pence on a litre really worth getting het up about? Get a life!
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Everyone is entitled to protest but no-one has any right to interfere with my ability to go about my daily business.
Yet the Government has the right to interfere with our daily business without being challenged?
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Grow up. There's no comparison. If you don't like 'em, vote 'em out.
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Got to wait 2 years to do that I am afraid (vote em out, not grow up, may never do that)
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Lol, pdc, you and me both :)
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news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3150574.stm BBC story here.
From the BBC story:
"But environmental campaign group Friends of the Earth said it supported the rise in fuel duty if it would help persuade people to use their cars less."
What a complete load of old Pink Fluffy Dice!
1.28p/Litre persuading people to use their cars less?
I think not!
P'ing off people who can't help but use the roads maybe.
Al.
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After the first wave of blockades (which were not blockades, but protests outside fuel depots) the state created a false opposition as it always does in such a situation. A state-sponsered stool pigeon given was suddenly plenty of airtime and press coverage and he called off the action giving Bliar an 11th hour reprive. Since then all proposed protests (including Hyde Park) have been instigated by the state who are then in control of the people who claim to oppose them, its what the establishment do to quash any conflict. Ask yourself, how many will switch off their engine at 8.30am?
But now its been said and plastered all over the news, it cannot be displaced by an alternative which culd prove successful.
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Yeah, and Elvis works at my local chippy.
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The supermarkets are going to absorb the rise anyway. End of story.
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I'm all for freedom to protest - but this really is the wrong target.
Fuel tax is probably the only "fair" tax we pay. Not saying about the level of tax - that's a different arguement and covers a lot more than fuel.
No, think about it. Everyone pays - you can't avoid it. Even if the car's nicked, the insurance is non-existent - you wanna move it - you pay tax on the fuel.
Contrast that with road tax. People dodge it. Little of it goes to roads. It costs a fortune to collect.
If ever there was a wasteful, inefficient way to raise revenue that is it.
Now I just might join a protest about that. But I'm sure not interested in action that does nothing except disrupt those it's claiming to represent.
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I love the bit about how abandoning the escalator 'cost' the Treasury £1.8 billion.
So if they stop themselves pilfering even more of our hard earned then thats a 'cost' is it?
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Since Tuesday when the Government added an extra 1.5p per litre to the price of petrol in Cheltenham has gone down from 73.9 to 72.9, so if the retailers Shell, Esso. Sainsbury can do it there, they can do it anywhere, New York, New York. sorry got carried away, but are you getting scabbed off by a greedy petrol station, if so boycott them.
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The current Cheltenham situation is not typical of the country as a whole because there is effectively a local petrol war there that will probably result in the closure of at least one filling station because they are running at a loss. It's great now but watch the prices go up when that happens.But that's what market forces is all about ain't it?
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