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Time for electric? Does it add up? - NAthan smith
Morning
A popular topic everywhere at the moment but here are my views. I currently do a 20 mile round commute so something like a hybrid (circa 30 miles on electric ) looks to make sense. However my neighbour had a 330e it does round 25 miles on electric it costs him around £3.50 to charge overnight. So my point is is going to cost me around £18 a week to charge whereas it costing my the same in diesel? This doesn’t take into account cost of changing cars, electric point install at home etc. Is this the fall down of hybrids?
Time for electric? Does it add up? - RT

It won't make financial sense to change your car for a different energy type - the cost to change will outweigh any savings - unless you're also downsizing.

Make the decision when your present car needs replacing.

Time for electric? Does it add up? - badbusdriver

Even with the current energy prices, that seems an awful lot to charge a PHEV, just under £1300 per year.

Surely that can't be right?

Time for electric? Does it add up? - NAthan smith
£3.50 for an overnight charge is what he is paying. This is my point that are these hybrid/Phevs actually worth it or totally pointless?
Time for electric? Does it add up? - Bromptonaut
£3.50 for an overnight charge is what he is paying. This is my point that are these hybrid/Phevs actually worth it or totally pointless?

At the current capped rate of approx 28.3/unit £3.50 would be close to 12.5kw. If he's on a cheap night rate it may be more.

If my googling is correct under ideal conditions one might get 4 miles per kw/h.

Sub-optimally may be 40 miles range.

Or perhaps I've got a decimal in the wrong place.

Edited by Bromptonaut on 08/04/2022 at 09:52

Time for electric? Does it add up? - badbusdriver
£3.50 for an overnight charge is what he is paying. This is my point that are these hybrid/Phevs actually worth it or totally pointless?

150 miles (assuming he works 5 days) for £17.50.

Current average diesel prices (according to the RAC website) is 176.98p per litre or a fraction under £8.05 per gallon. You'd get 2.17 gallons for £17.50, so your diesel car would have to average 69.12mpg to equal your neighbours electric cost.

Plus, if your neighbours BMW is a company car, there is also the tax benefits (BIK?).

Whether or not it is worth it I guess will depend on your personal circumstances. Also how you are paying for the car will be a big factor. Many forum members when looking at PHEV's look only at the list price, whereas in reality, most folk will be paying monthly. With various deals, the monthly payment on a PHEV (or EV) may not work out that much more than an ICE car.

Time for electric? Does it add up? - Terry W

The answer is whatever you want it to be. Cost per mile:

  • electric 3-4 miles per KWH. Current price ~30p per unit = 7.5-10.0p per mile
  • petrol at 40-50mpg. Current price ~£7.25 gal = 14.5-18.1p per mile
  • diesel at 50-60mpg. Current price ~£8.20 gal = 13.6-16.3p per mile

Best case saving by going electric is 10.6p per mile (18.1p - 7.5p)

Worst case saving by going electric is 3.6p per mile (13.6p - 10.0p)

Commuting 30 miles a day on electric for 45 weeks a year = 6750 battery miles. Best case saving £715 pa, worst case £243 pa. Difference ££472 pa - ~£40 per month.

Conclusion:

  • ownership cost is dominated by depn/lease/PCP payments, fuel is incidental.
  • with a £5k premium for PHEV, payback will be between 7 and 20 years.
  • most trade in at 3-5 years. Analysis depends on estimated trade in value
  • lease/PCP depends on assumptions selected vs additional monthly cost

The reality is that financial assumptions can be chosen to fit a preconceived outcome. It is personal image, status, environmental concerns, driving experience, etc that dominate.

Time for electric? Does it add up? - Andrew-T

<< The reality is that financial assumptions can be chosen to fit a preconceived outcome. It is personal image, status, environmental concerns, driving experience, etc that dominate. >>

This has always been the problem. Most people try to use numbers - usually money - to help them decide, and that has more basis than tossing a coin but is not much more decisive. A lot of the purpose behind EVs is environmental concern, which is not easily quantifiable. If you decide to drive in a ULEZ you need at least a hybrid vehicle. If you don't, you probably don't.

Time for electric? Does it add up? - mcb100
Check the charge rate of a particular PHEV before spending money on a home charge point.
Most only charge at c3.6kW, which is not much more than the output of a 3 pin socket.
It’s the car that dictates the charge rate, not where you’ve got it plugged into.
Time for electric? Does it add up? - sammy1

Well walking is not free either Cost of boots £60.00 average distance covered 30miles per week. Boots last about 6months if lucky before down to minimum tread and you can feel every stone so it costs about 8p a mile. To this you can add cost of rain weather gear and extra food to top up the dog. The dogs pads don't seem to suffer wear so may be the tyre companies are missing a trick or two

Time for electric? Does it add up? - J.Barton

That's not quite accurate. Charge rate is dependant on A) what the charge point can provide, and B) what the vehicle can take. A hand shake is performed on first connection to establish what power it will charge at.

Very similar to how a USB device will charge at the fastest rate that it and a USB charger will allow, once they have performed their hand shaking and established the power limits of one another.

Time for electric? Does it add up? - John F

Not for our (a couple of low mileage pensioners) foreseeable future.

Hats off to Terry W for commendable analysis...The answer is whatever you want it to be...I presume he is an accountant!

Two and a half years ago we bought a brand new end-of-the-line model small SUV (Peugeot 2008 130 EAT6) for £17k which we not unreasonably expect to have a time and distance life at least as long as our previous generation dogsbody car (a Ford Focus 1.6 auto estate, 21yrs and 160,000 miles). It will almost certainly average fewer than 6000 miles a year so I think the prospective extra fuel cost per mile above that of an EV will be more than offset by the saving in depreciation of a much pricier EV.

I have never tolerated depreciation cost of more than a few hundred pounds a year on any of our cars and do not intend to start doing so now.

Time for electric? Does it add up? - NAthan smith
Accountant or local MP!
Time for electric? Does it add up? - Terry W

Chartered accountant - realised early on that money (reality) often comes second to emotion - status, self-esteem, social recognition, religion, environment, morality etc etc.

Two examples - setting up a joint venture in India our partner (a wealthy businessman) was motivated by the social kudos of employing more staff, not profit. In Saudi Arabia another JV partner was motivated by becoming the largest industrialist (outside the oil industry) in the country.

Time for electric? Does it add up? - sammy1

Chartered accountant - realised early on that money (reality) often comes second to emotion - status, self-esteem, social recognition, religion, environment, morality etc etc.

Two examples - setting up a joint venture in India our partner (a wealthy businessman) was motivated by the social kudos of employing more staff, not profit. In Saudi Arabia another JV partner was motivated by becoming the largest industrialist (outside the oil industry) in the country.

I really don't understand this. The rich become bored with their lives swanning around with their rich friends and look for other ways to get some fulfilment in life. The rest of us go to work every day because we have to!

Time for electric? Does it add up? - Graham567

My plug in Kia Xceed gives around 30 miles to a charge.It takes 2.5 hours to charge from empty to full.I have Octopus go night tarrif which is 5p per kw/hour.

So to charge my car overnight costs around 50p.

Either your friend is charging during the day or the BMW takes alot longer to charge.

If most cars do about 30 miles to the gallon around town and a gallon of petrol is £7 then my 50p for those 30 miles is extremely cheap.

Time for electric? Does it add up? - alan1302

I really don't understand this. The rich become bored with their lives swanning around with their rich friends and look for other ways to get some fulfilment in life. The rest of us go to work every day because we have to!

Like they say money does not bring happiness.

Time for electric? Does it add up? - John F

Like they say money does not bring happiness.

Who are 'they'? Am I unusual in that the things and experiences that produce an elevation of my mood beyond mere contentment usually involve the acquisition and disbursement of money? Indeed, the lack of it would soon result in un-happiness if I was obliged to sell our not particularly valuable cars (all three with a combined value about the same as a new mundane EV) in order to buy food and keep warm.

Time for electric? Does it add up? - alan1302

Like they say money does not bring happiness.

Who are 'they'? Am I unusual in that the things and experiences that produce an elevation of my mood beyond mere contentment usually involve the acquisition and disbursement of money? Indeed, the lack of it would soon result in un-happiness if I was obliged to sell our not particularly valuable cars (all three with a combined value about the same as a new mundane EV) in order to buy food and keep warm.

We were talking about rich people...I don't think most people that can pay their bills and go ona few holidays will be anymore happy than they are if their income doubled. A lot of rich people feel the stress of the money and thinking about what happens if they lose it.

Time for electric? Does it add up? - expat

Like they say money does not bring happiness.

Who are 'they'? Am I unusual in that the things and experiences that produce an elevation of my mood beyond mere contentment usually involve the acquisition and disbursement of money? Indeed, the lack of it would soon result in un-happiness if I was obliged to sell our not particularly valuable cars (all three with a combined value about the same as a new mundane EV) in order to buy food and keep warm.

We were talking about rich people...I don't think most people that can pay their bills and go ona few holidays will be anymore happy than they are if their income doubled. A lot of rich people feel the stress of the money and thinking about what happens if they lose it.

Henry David Thoreau, the American philosopher dealt with that subject in his book "Walden Pond". He dropped out for two years and lived in a hut in the woods leading a simple life. A man who was very much ahead of his time. I can recommend the book.

Time for electric? Does it add up? - Andrew-T

<< A man who was very much ahead of his time. I can recommend the book. >>

But not the strategy ? :-)

Time for electric? Does it add up? - John F

<< A man who was very much ahead of his time.

Thanks for the reference, I enjoyed reading about him. But ahead of his time? There have always been oddball hermits and ascetics around, and probably there always will be.

I can recommend the book. >>

But not the strategy ? :-)

Not a bad strategy if someone else bails you out of fines etc. Sad that he and his sibs died so young.

Time for electric? Does it add up? - Terry W

A very simplistic and narrow view of what motivates the wealthy.

Social status in India was heavily reliant upon how many were employed on decent terms and conditions. Wealthy people did not buy fancy cars - the would get trashed on the poor roads. A car (Ambassador) and driver were the norm for middle management upwards.

In Saudi the ruling classes were keen to reduce dependence on the oil industry and provide work for a growing population. Being an "industrialist" would get you noticed, invited by the right people, respect etc etc.

For neither was money a motive for continuing to work.

Once basic needs are met (food, warmth, shelter) work becomes increasingly discretionary. It may be nice to have a new car, but a 5, 10, 15 year old car will get you from A to B fine. You don't need a house with more bedrooms than people to fill them.

In the UK we seem to value visible statements of status - really quite shallow.

Time for electric? Does it add up? - Andrew-T

In the UK we seem to value visible statements of status - really quite shallow.

Perhaps, but I don't think for many that is to display 'status', more to give a feeling of having arrived and been able to own (or lease) such an object (usually a car).

A joiner who has done various work for us over the years, and has an enjoyable Scouse accent, used to visit to give estimates in his posh Jag. He said it was his only vice as he didn't drink or smoke.

Time for electric? Does it add up? - FoxyJukebox
From what I’m reading, surely with electricity prices leaping x 4 in some instances-it’s better to do the electric car sums very carefully….caution is needed. Another point-if charging at home you might have to change/update your fuse box ( an added cost-not cheap)
Time for electric? Does it add up? - alan1302
From what I’m reading, surely with electricity prices leaping x 4 in some instances-it’s better to do the electric car sums very carefully….caution is needed. Another point-if charging at home you might have to change/update your fuse box ( an added cost-not cheap)

Petrol and diesel costs have all increased as well though. Also people don't have to go electric just because it's a cheaper fuel, they may just want an electric car.

Time for electric? Does it add up? - Bolt
From what I’m reading, surely with electricity prices leaping x 4 in some instances-it’s better to do the electric car sums very carefully….caution is needed. Another point-if charging at home you might have to change/update your fuse box ( an added cost-not cheap)

Petrol and diesel costs have all increased as well though. Also people don't have to go electric just because it's a cheaper fuel, they may just want an electric car.

By the time EVs become mainstream, electricity prices will probably get to fossil fuel prices anyway, so I doubt it will be cheaper to run electric than it is run a petrol now, were going over to electric to save the planet not to save money, electricity prices now are probably only to entice motorists over to electric and clobber them later with high prices, all clever stuff lol

Time for electric? Does it add up? - sammy1

Whatever fuel and its cost you have to buy the vehicle to start with which for most is becoming increasingly impossible. The price increases started before covid and for some new cars 30 or 40% has happened in 2 years and with long waits.. The UK is becoming saturated with cars and there is even more reason to look at public transport HS2 excluded.

As regards EVs there seems to be little progress in the range offered to buyers and the charging network not good enough so petrol for me and hanging on to the present car for quite a while yet.

Time for electric? Does it add up? - Bolt

As regards EVs there seems to be little progress in the range offered to buyers and the charging network not good enough so petrol for me and hanging on to the present car for quite a while yet.

Range will gradually increase as R&D improves the battery makeup and size, ie they become smaller, as will charging stations get more common, I think the biggest problem with them will be reliability and as mentioned before a common connector for all cars like USB has become for electronic devices

I think Tesla are leading the way with batteries and Motors at the moment and probably will for a while to come, will be interesting to see what models they come up with in the near future....

Time for electric? Does it add up? - alan1302

As regards EVs there seems to be little progress in the range offered to buyers

I'm not sure I understand this - there seem to be a steady stream of new models coming out all the time and any newly designed car will be electric.

Time for electric? Does it add up? - RT

As regards EVs there seems to be little progress in the range offered to buyers

I'm not sure I understand this - there seem to be a steady stream of new models coming out all the time and any newly designed car will be electric.

I took "range" to be the battery capacity rather than variety of different models.

Time for electric? Does it add up? - sammy1

""""I think Tesla are leading the way with batteries and Motors at the moment and probably will for a while to come, will be interesting to see what models they come up with in the near future.... """"

Yes I agree that Tesla have the edge on charging and distance and look forward to seeing some new models. However having a car with a TV starring me in the face ruins the design from my point of view, it just does not look right in the cockpit and just looks like an afterthought. I note that the dash on the new 3 series BMW looks the same and it just looks wrong and spoils the flow.

Yes I meant range as the potential distance the car is able to drive from a full battery. As regards models if anything too many battery options to choose from and choosing the wrong one might be an expensive mistake at sale time

Time for electric? Does it add up? - Terry W

One wonders how long it will be before a manufacturer produces an EV which seeks to provide a traditional ICE motoring experience.

  • a stick to pretend to change gear
  • a clutch pedal with an authentic noise of a fouled up gear change
  • engine noise - select from a 2CV throb to a full throated V8
  • a full set of Smiths dials including oil pressure and RPM (unnecessary of course)
  • the familiar smell of split diesel by the recharging point

Probably never - classic cars will continue to stir the senses of those who care or remember what is was like. Most of the rest in an increasingly regulated world simply want something that looks and feels like an iPad.

Time for electric? Does it add up? - Bolt

However having a car with a TV starring me in the face ruins the design from my point of view, it just does not look right in the cockpit and just looks like an afterthought.

Apart from across the dash there isn't anywhere else to put it and as its going to be staying I suspect newer designs maybe across the dash as the Honda is, which I think is the better idea

IIRC the microchips that run the car are behind the Tesla dash display so its a good way to hide them

Range is the sticking point I think as far as people I know are concerned but imo people are diving in too early to buy them as the tech is changing all the time, even Toyota are trialling the new blade batteries which are said to fully charge in under 30mins - 80% in 10mins- which is good in my books but others may not think so.

Time for electric? Does it add up? - mcb100
I suspect it was range as in distance able to be driven, rather than the variety of models available.
Indeed, latest from SMMT - ‘The UK EV market is growing rapidly. Ten years ago, 6 models of electric car were available, just one in 1,000 new car registrations. There are now more than 140 models on the market, with EVs comprising more than 1 in 6 new cars & 1 in 28 vans registered’.
Time for electric? Does it add up? - Terry W

There are a number of questions associated with "range":

  • how many miles can be driven from full to empty
  • how long does it take to charge from empty to (say) 80%
  • are charging points available

200+ miles is an adequate range if it can be recharged quickly with available charging points assured/frequent. 200 miles probably equal to 3-4 hours driving. Comfort break and coffee whilst charging is no real impediment to progress.

A several hour recharge makes 200 miles range inadequate - we fairly often drive 400 miles in a day, albeit with some stops. As a second car for shorter journeys, range is of little consequence.

Even with 200 mile range and swift recharge all may not be well if no recharging spots are available.

Time for electric? Does it add up? - Ethan Edwards

Interesting you say that 200m range is adequate if there is a potential to fast recharge. Exactly where my thoughts went.

I bought a Mokka E which has upwards of 200miles range and if you get a 150kwh charger will charge from 20 to 80% in 20minutes. If you get a 50kwh charger then 20 to 80 in 40minutes.

So if you select your chargers right it's drive two hours tea , splash n dash and off you go. Theoretically.

Welcome to the real world.

Broken chargers

Chargers being used so your queuing.

People with ICE cars intentionally parking in the EV charging spot icing out the bay.

Course Tesla have virtually none of this as they have their own charger network.

It's getting better but if you take a look at ZapMap most chargers on offer are 7kwh which is the same as I have at home or an overnight charger. There are high powered chargers out there but not as common as I'd like. But as I mainly do round trips under 150 miles EVs work very well for my needs.

Edited by Ethan Edwards on 17/04/2022 at 18:06

Time for electric? Does it add up? - sammy1

"""Chargers being used so your queuing.""

Thanks for your realistic post as you put it and a few home truths to some.

I have often wondered how do you queue for a charger? I can imagine it is a bit of bun fight if there are a few waiting and how might you pick/keep your place? What happens if you go for a coffee and you miss your slot, must be frustrating to say the least. I have not heard of anyone experiencing "charger rage" but it must be happening?

Time for electric? Does it add up? - Ethan Edwards

If forced to wait for a free bay , my choice would be to select another charger nearby (few miles, if possible). As to charger frustration, yeah that'd be my guess human nature being what it is.

Edited by Ethan Edwards on 17/04/2022 at 20:39

Time for electric? Does it add up? - Andrew-T

I have often wondered how do you queue for a charger? I can imagine it is a bit of bun fight ...

Living in the Cheshire sticks, I have not yet witnessed any of these new-fangled devices, but I would assume queuing has to be similar to queuing for a pump, as it needs the same kind of umbilical attachment. The main difference is that it will take a good deal longer, so perhaps some will get fed up and try elsewhere, as they do when caught in stationary traffic ?

Time for electric? Does it add up? - John F

Compared to the cost range of fuel from pumps there is a much wider cost range of electricity from public and private plug sockets. I have just watched a 'Harry's garage' u-tube video in which he fast-charges an Audi e-tron from a socket outside a gym somewhere in Eastbourne. £14 bought him an extra 85 miles, which is nearly 17p per mile. Owing to recent events I guess the price will soon be much more than this, making it ever more difficult to compare the long term costs of E and ICE vehicles. At current prices, most ICE cars on the road have a fuel cost of somewhere between 15 and 20p per mile.

Time for electric? Does it add up? - Terry W

The cost per KWh for home consumption is ~30p. A typical EV will do 3-4 miles per KWh - a cost 0f 7.5-10.0p per mile.

Away from home the supplier provides parking bays, maintenance, payment systems, investment, etc + profit. Possibly premium for charger speed, convenience and availability.

This is little different to petrol or diesel, although the differential is obscured by tax and duty. Locally (Somerset) petrol is 170p (m/way) and 157p (Sainsburys) 3 miles away.

Duty at 58p + petrol from the refinery at ~60p + VAT at ~27p per litre are similar wherever the fuel is sold. The retailers is left with ~12p (Sainsburys) to ~25p (m/way) - about double.