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Not really news as the whole point of smart meters was to introduce half hourly metering, which has been standard for many large commercial users for years.
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Not really news as the whole point of smart meters was to introduce half hourly metering, which has been standard for many large commercial users for years.
The 'news' is more that they will be able (in 2025) to vary the price per half hour slot, which was always denied when 'smart' meters were first rolled out.
As the report comments, many people - especially the most vulnerable and least able to pay/change their habits - will not be able to change when they use their high-output appliances or heating. The well-off may pay more, but they can easily afford to.
The energy firms are, IMHO, pretending that customers 'can save' (rather like the claims from insurers to switch firms) money, but mostly by completely changing around how they live, which isn't possible (to the degree that it would make a considerable difference financially) for the overwhelming majority.
Besides, if large numbers of people did change their habits, then the peak would move and then everyone would have to do the same again, rather like people with satnavs in cars faced with only two alternatives for a route. Add to that where customers won't know until the last moment what the prices will be means that people cannot plan even if they wanted to.
As usual, the well-off who have PV panels at home, new, more effeicient appliances and boilers, better home insulation and EV with a big battery pack or Tesla-type battery wall that can discharge back to the grid because they can quickly recharge via a fast home charger etc will benefit at the expense of the less well-off.
Next on the agenda (and they are already trialling it - reporting in the DT the day before), power rationing and maybe even realated 'climate lockdowns',a again despite power companies, officials and ministers denying it would do this and there is and will be plenty of capacity for the forseeable future.
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<< ... pretending that customers 'can save' ... money, but mostly by completely changing around how they live, which isn't possible ... for the overwhelming majority. >>
I take your point, Andy, but I'm sure there are quite a few that could, if they cut back on the usual bottle of wine after work, or the regular eating out, for example. Like most of us, they don't like giving up the nice things they have got used to. Some of them might spend a trifling sum on insulating their houses a bit more.
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<< ... pretending that customers 'can save' ... money, but mostly by completely changing around how they live, which isn't possible ... for the overwhelming majority. >>
I take your point, Andy, but I'm sure there are quite a few that could, if they cut back on the usual bottle of wine after work, or the regular eating out, for example. Like most of us, they don't like giving up the nice things they have got used to. Some of them might spend a trifling sum on insulating their houses a bit more.
It might seem a 'triffling' sum to you, but it won't be to many, who barely scrape by now (and in pre-pandemic times). Many people live in older proerties which either cannot be thermally upgraded (no cavity wall) without huge sums being spent on (safe) external or internal cladding - and many have to have expensive versions that are 'breathable' because of the original construction (which may not have a damp course and airbricks).
Some, especially in the countryside or preservation areas, may not be allowed to upgrade due to planning restrictions (listed status, etc). Many other are obviously rental accommodation, and the landlord may not be able or willing to upgrade, at least in the timeframes often being pushed for.
Using the wrong/cheap materials can obviously have bad consequences, not just for the aforementioned issues but for safety reasons, like with the Grenfell towerblock fire.
As I've said before, it's very easy to pontificate and virtue-signal on such issues when we can afford to change our habits or make physical changes to properties without breaking the bank, etc. We need to put ourselves in other people's shoes to realise it isn't as easy as you describe.
Saying that, I'd rather put taxpayer money into helping on this issue to subsidise good quality upgrades - but targeted at those who will get most benefit and who can least afford it.
I also think that the planning system and supervision of building projects needs to be far better - many very poorly-thought-out projects get the go-ahead, often that result in buildings that are not sympathetic the environment and often cannot be easily adapted (especially as regards building services, which consume a lot of energy) over the medium to longer term.
A good example in my 20yo flat block. An energy band B home, but has some poorly thought out utility routing and housing facilities, meaning we cannot upgrade to smart meters (not sufficient room) even if we wanted to.
The OEM boiler cupboards (only big enough for a combi) were stupidly placed in the middle of the flat and with no communal drain nearby, meaning fitting replacements is very tricky and costs about £1k more than would normally be the case.
All the plastic heating and water pipes are uninsulated and run within the party or external walls, meaning heat is lost when and where you don't want to, but you'd have to spend a small fortune to upgrade. A feature of many modern home is how they are getting (for the number of bedrooms) smaller and smaller, with less and less storgae or oom for services.
With a little more care during the design phase, a far better design could've been built that would've been much better future proofed. I recall on many occasions getting a LOT of pushback (including from architects) on my requirements for space for ceiling voids, service risers and utility rooms/cupboards - all in the name of 'saving money' for the client. Few seemed to care about what happened once the occupiers moved in or 10-20 years down the road.
Unfortunately, such issues don't generate newspaper headlines or ratings-grabbing TV news spots, but they are often far more important over the longer term.
It's why the politicians, journos, activists and officials mostly cannot be bothred to do anything on this front - the don't generate copy or good PR/votes in the short term and because most of them don't have the technical knowledge, they have no idaea how / can't be bothered to sell it to the public.
The cheap easy fix (that mostly isn't) - often a PR stunt is the order of the day, as often explained on 'Yes, Minister'.
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Octopus, and I guess some other suppliers, have tariffs for EV owners. This move is no surprise and is a natural development of smart meters. Can't see it influencing when you charge your phone or have a cuppa, but it may influence when you put the washing on.
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Octopus, and I guess some other suppliers, have tariffs for EV owners. This move is no surprise and is a natural development of smart meters. Can't see it influencing when you charge your phone or have a cuppa, but it may influence when you put the washing on.
Not so good for those of us living in flats where we legally have a duty not to disturb our neighbours overnight. As you say, it cannot influence when we have a cup of tea of use the electric oven to cook an evening meal (by much that makes any meaningful difference).
Presumably we would need to check to see which popular TV programmes are on each day (whether we watch them or not, and have to guess what they are) like soap opera, a football match or talent show, then not do anything for the time they are on +/- 30 mins.
Joy.
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I thought smart meters were to help the consumer to economise their usage. How can the consumer possible check their bill if the tariff can change 48 times in 24hours. Everywhere you look things are becoming more complicated than they used to be mainly due to the digital age and they call it progress
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Octopus Energy are the people involved in these pioneering shenanigans. They prefer to call it "plunge pricing", their marketing being a cut above OFGEMs. An extension of their AGILE tarrif which already charges in 30 minute increments, promised low prices when wholesale prices were low, for instance off peak in the middle of the night on windy days. In practice its turned out to be one of the most expensive tariffs available. Now charging 34p/kwh all the time with nothing lower any time of the day.
As I understand it, the difference now is rather than people opting into such schemes, Octopus customers will now have to opt out, otherwise they automatically get put on an agile style pricing scheme, with a carrot of a small rebate if they meet the criteria of lowering their peak usage, which imo is a tall order.
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Last year in Texas, there were stories of people on flexible tariffs being faced with bills of 10s of thousands of dollars, with the charge maximum being $9/kWh.
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Last year in Texas, there were stories of people on flexible tariffs being faced with bills of 10s of thousands of dollars, with the charge maximum being $9/kWh.
Was that when they had all those snow storms that covered up the PV panels, which in turn meant blackouts, no heating for people with A/C (heat & cool) systems or no back up genny to power the boiler, etc etc?
That rate is about 30x our current leccy rate if my maths is correct. Ouch.
Edited by Engineer Andy on 10/02/2022 at 17:38
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My smart meter tells me how much per hour it's costing me via an in home display. This changes as the rate changes, in my case when Economy 7 moves from night rate to day rate.
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"As I understand it, the difference now is rather than people opting into such schemes, Octopus customers will now have to opt out, otherwise they automatically get put on an agile style pricing scheme, with a carrot of a small rebate if they meet the criteria of lowering their peak usage, which imo is a tall order."
Not my experience of Octopus. My fixed deal comes to an end this weekend and the options are another fixed deal at an increase of 120% or go variable. No mention of the Agile tariff. Each month's bill states whether you are on their cheapest tariff for your usage - possibly an Ofgem requirement?
I don't have a smart meter which may, or may not, make a difference.
Edited by Chris M on 09/02/2022 at 16:28
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Not my experience of Octopus. My fixed deal comes to an end this weekend and the options are another fixed deal at an increase of 120% or go variable. No mention of the Agile tariff. Each month's bill states whether you are on their cheapest tariff for your usage - possibly an Ofgem requirement?
I don't have a smart meter which may, or may not, make a difference.
I thought you might realise that to get real time (30 min) readings and pricing, a smart meter is required. So this scheme applies only to customers with smart meters.
The variable tariff you refer to is the standard "not fixed" default tariff that all customers without smart meters get pushed onto when they fall off a fixed deal and don't agree a new deal.
Smart meters will eventually be either legislated or be pushed by manipulation of pricing (ridiculously high prices for standard v smart) or simply lack of suppliers offering tariffs with a standard meter.
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"I thought you might realise that to get real time (30 min) readings and pricing, a smart meter is required."
No s*** Sherlock!
"The variable tariff you refer to is the standard "not fixed" default tariff that all customers without smart meters get pushed onto when they fall off a fixed deal and don't agree a new deal."
Well it is basically a fixed deal at present isn't it? Fixed until 31st March at the current cap and then fixed for the following six months at the new (up 54%) price cap. If Ofgem start quarterly reviews, that won't be until Q4 at the earliest from what I've read.
Even if I wanted a smart meter, they aren't being installed in my area at present apparently.
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Somewhat simplistically as it will vary with season and weather:
UK peak demand is a little over 40GW. Night time demand falls below 30GW.
Most of the peak is served by fossil fuels.
Reducing peak demand to (say) 35GW through real time variable charging creates immediate spare capacity in the generation and distribution network. Easier to absorb additional load from EVs, and reduces costs of investment and maintenance.
It is the detail that needs working up - will the variable charge or rebate be based on:
- maximum demand over 30mins, hour, 12 hours, day, or
- completely variable in half hour "chunks", or
- pre-agreed/contracted rates depending on time of day, or
- etc etc
Seems a sensible idea - just needs a bit of thought to work out what appliances to run overnight - eg: dishwasher, washing machine, will overnight electricity be cheaper than gas water heating.
Other possibilities - move meal times or menu to use low cost power, if using power tools in the workshop, use the vacuum cleaner at a different time etc etc.
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"""
Seems a sensible idea - just needs a bit of thought to work out what appliances to run overnight - eg: dishwasher, washing machine, will overnight electricity be cheaper than gas water heating.
Other possibilities - move meal times or menu to use low cost power, if using power tools in the workshop, use the vacuum cleaner at a different time etc etc."""
As I was saying somewhere else life was a whole lot simpler. Above may suit some but not night shift workers and others. Then you have those who have so much money that it won't bother them. Things need to get more real in this country the not so well off are getting further and further behind and this latest fuel price increase will break some! Reasonable fuel prices in a civilised country should be a fundamental requirement instead of chasing a green dream all to quickly
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From the Octopus website:
"Agile Octopus is a beta product. If you're OK that some things may not work first time, that installations and processes may take longer than we'd like, and that on occasion data issues with smart meters can take significant time to fix or prevent things working at all, but that you'd like to work with us to make world-changing energy tariffs a reality, check this box so we know you're onboard. You will always be able to switch to one of our fairly priced standard tariffs at any time."
It's probably the future, for better or worse.
Edited by Chris M on 09/02/2022 at 22:11
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I was transferred to Octopus when my supplier failed. I am not impressed by their policies and communications and like a lot of companies it is all flannel and little substance.
The whole idea of a free energy market has long been blown and the consumer is picking up the bill
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I'm looking into Home energy storage. I have solar pv, paid for itself now. If I install say 8kwh it charges during the day from the solar and at night during cheaper off peak. 8kwh probably enough to make my daytime consumption negligible. Benefits are I get 12hours power in the event of a power grid cut. Cheaper bills and it uses recycled Renault/Nissan ev packs. Second use as its termed. Tesla do one but its hellacious expensive.
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... just needs a bit of thought to work out what appliances to run overnight - eg: dishwasher, washing machine, will overnight electricity be cheaper than gas water heating.
Some risk-averse people will not want to run appliances like dish- or clothes-washers while they are asleep - they have been known to start fires.
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Reading through this thread I can only conclude one thing, what a mess!
There is still a role for fossil fuels while greener alternatives are still developing and being rolled out.
I am tempted to consider a log burner if next winters heating bill is going to be extortionate.
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The rush to go for wind power is fatally flawed in that there are no guarantees the wind will blow and when it does that it is not too strong. Storage is the problem - Australia spent megabucks for 10/15 minutes of battery power from solar.
The elephant in the room is gas heating - Peak Electricity demand 4pm to say 7pm when demand goes up by 30/40% in winter. The peak for gas heating is likewise 4pm +. Around 4 pm in winter the usage mounts and within an hour or so it leaps to approximately 4 x the 3pm consumption.
This is a huge problem as peaks in UK electricity demand like that will require a massive increase in production but also distribution - every UK street is a candidate for "road up" and rewiring of say around 50% (15m) homes,
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Gas heating isn't going anywhere for some time. They are building a new housing estate near where I live, not a solar panel or heat pump to be seen; so that's 15-20 years before the boilers need to be replaced.
Storage can be addressed by the cars themselves. There are 4 Teslas in our street within 50 metres of each other. How do I know? Because they spend most of their time parked in the drive. Perfect for managing those peaks in demand. As long as there is enough juice for the school run the owners can rest easy knowing they are making a profit selling back the electricity to the grid at peak times.
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"Some risk-averse people will not want to run appliances like dish- or clothes-washers while they are asleep - they have been known to start fires."
Or leak, as happened to an elderly friend we knew. Caused thousands in damage and many things of personal value such as her husband's drawings (he was an architiect)
Also if I lived in a flat I might be irked if a neighbour's washing machine started up at three in the morning.
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People can be broadly split into three groups so far as technology is concerned:
Early adopters - first to try and buy new tech - smartphones, computers, EVs, social media, fashion, etc etc. Tends to require deep pockets, and a lot of wasted energy as new tech often ends up at dead ends and dies.
Normal - happy to accept the world is changing and prepared to adapt when the time is right for them. Most folk sit somewhere in this group.
Dinosaurs - unable to accept or believe that any change from the status quo is feasible. Still don't have a smartphone, sign up to Facebook as the early adopters leave, think EVs, green energy, half hour charging will be an unbelievably complex failure
I have never lain awake at night wondering whether the TV, dishwasher, washing machine will burst into flames. A TV at normal volumes is noisier than a washing machine and should not wake the neighbours.
Dinosaurs sadly end up marginalised when the world moves on without them (as it undoubtedly will). Current symptoms - difficult or can't do online shopping, book a holiday, get to a bank branch that is still open, pay bills (cheque books will soon die) etc.
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Dinosaurs - unable to accept or believe that any change from the status quo is feasible. Still don't have a smartphone, sign up to Facebook as the early adopters leave, think EVs, green energy, half hour charging will be an unbelievably complex failure..
By this definition I fall comfortably in the dinosaur group, tho I am ready to believe that change is feasible. The simple truth is that I buy things which I find a need for, not just because they are a novelty. I happily watch the younger generation exercising their thumbs on a smartphone whenever they have an idle moment, while I exercise my brain, rather than it needing electronic input. I comfort myself that I am much more immune from hacking and similar problems :-)
As for the bank branch, our local one (5 mins walk) is due to close this summer. We will probably need to adopt internet banking, tho I guess the only reason I have been to the branch for years is to withdraw cash to buy an elderly car ... (motoring connection).
And it's not a question of lying awake worrying about the dishwasher catching fire - it does occasionally happen.
Edited by Andrew-T on 10/02/2022 at 14:00
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"And it's not a question of lying awake worrying about the dishwasher catching fire - it does occasionally happen."
We have a smoke alarm beside all our electrical appliances and worry about nothing.
We do, however, shut all internal doors at night
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We have a smoke alarm beside all our electrical appliances and worry about nothing.
Not much use for those water leaks ... :-)
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We have a smoke alarm beside all our electrical appliances and worry about nothing.
Not much use for those water leaks ... :-)
...or the washing machine outflow pipe / drain backing up with a combination of suds and lint. A neighbour had that after forgetting to empty their lint filter since they bought their washer/drier. A lovely surprise to wake up to...
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People can be broadly split into three groups so far as technology is concerned:
Early adopters - first to try and buy new tech - smartphones, computers, EVs, social media, fashion, etc etc. Tends to require deep pockets, and a lot of wasted energy as new tech often ends up at dead ends and dies.
Normal - happy to accept the world is changing and prepared to adapt when the time is right for them. Most folk sit somewhere in this group.
Dinosaurs - unable to accept or believe that any change from the status quo is feasible. Still don't have a smartphone, sign up to Facebook as the early adopters leave, think EVs, green energy, half hour charging will be an unbelievably complex failure
I have never lain awake at night wondering whether the TV, dishwasher, washing machine will burst into flames. A TV at normal volumes is noisier than a washing machine and should not wake the neighbours.
Dinosaurs sadly end up marginalised when the world moves on without them (as it undoubtedly will). Current symptoms - difficult or can't do online shopping, book a holiday, get to a bank branch that is still open, pay bills (cheque books will soon die) etc.
I wouldn't call people who shun most of the (un)social media sites 'dinosaurs'. I personally cannot think of anything positive to say about the likes of Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc, etc.
Just because something's new and (for now) popular, doesn't mean it's a good thing, whether its something technological or not.
As regard not waking the neighbours, I'm sorry but your wrong on that as regards washing machines - they certainly do for those of us living in flats.
It's precisely why we have 'quiet enjoyment' clauses in our lease agreements which mean for people staying up at night (e.g. shift workers), they have to either turn their TV down a LOT or use headphones, and certainly not use their washing machine.
I would say that the 'best' group are those who make rational choice whether any new tech, custom, etc is going to benefit them at all, and how much is it going to cost (both physically and in other ways) before deciding whether to get or use it, and to what degree.
It has been shown many times over the last decade that a lot of things like smartphones, social media, etc are both addictive and can seriously impair people's mental health and relationships with friends, family and colleagues. Proper social interraction, fresh air and exercise outdoors / out and about, decent diet, etc are of far more importance.
That greater and greater (large) prercentages of people - especially the young - are very deeply unhappy (even before the pandemic) with their lives 'despite' all this (previously) cheap tech and conveniences available to them as well as social media rather tells a sorry tale.
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