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New Universal Cedit Threshold - sammy1

Without going into the ins and outs of the newly set £50k for this benefit, can the country afford to be giving subsidy to high earners when there other far more deserving causes. Or have I got this completely wrong?

New Universal Cedit Threshold - daveyjp

Link?

£50k is the start of tapering for child benefit. Not sure what figures apply for UC to be payable, I do know we weren't eligible last year when my wife lost her job.

New Universal Cedit Threshold - Xileno

This one perhaps?

www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/11/09/parents-ea.../

New Universal Cedit Threshold - daveyjp

I would never take any press report as the gospel truth as facts will be missing to get the click bait payments up and the comments pages filled.

Once you get through the usual comments expected of a piece like that there is at least one person trying to add some facts and detail.

"They also neglect to mention that only those earning over £50,000 with four or more children, all at least four and a half, qualify

As children born after 1st April 2017 don't count if the family already has two or more children.

Also they neglect to mention that 99% of families with four or more children aged at least four and a half are still on tax credits, whose taper rate has not changed, so won't get any extra anyway.

If you are going to write articles based on entering data into online benefit calculators, do your research properly first please."

Edited by daveyjp on 10/11/2021 at 20:40

New Universal Cedit Threshold - Bromptonaut

UC is means tested. Savings etc over £16k will disqualify. There is no corresponding bar by earnings amount. The method of calculation eliminates most people with high earnings. There are however exceptions the most likely are where there are children and private rents. In fact, the vast majority of cases where people are reported as receiving 'outrageous' amounts in benefit involve private rents. If there is a beneficiary of the state's munificence it's the landlord.

UC is calculated and paid monthly so as to replicate salary. The calculation starts with what is called Max Universal Credit; the amount the rules say a household needs to live on. Typically this start with a Standard Allowance for either a single adult or a couple. Additional amounts are paid each for children but not for third or subsequent children born after 01-04-2017. There's also an allowance for rent. For Social Housing it's the actual rent but reduced for any spare bedrooms (the bedroom tax). In private lettings it is restricted by Local Housing Allowance. Other additions cover long term health conditions, disabled children, child care and where there are caring responsibilities for a disabled person.

Universal Credit is reduced £/£ for most other benefits and other income like pensions.

In order to incentivise work earnings are treated differently to other income.

Those in work with children or a health condition get a work allowance (earnings that don't affect their benefit) of £293/month rising to £515 if they're not claiming Housing Costs. For earnings above the work allowance the benefit payable reduces by 63p for every £1 of earnings. The upcoming change reduces that taper rate to 55p.

If a single parent with children lives in a private rental in a relatively pricy part of the country where the rental cost limit (Local Housing Allowance) is correspondingly high - like an Outer London Borough - they might be allowed £1800/pcm to rent a 4 bed home or £1550 for a 3 bed.

On that basis they would get UC, before the taper change and based on 3 kids/3 beds and earnings of £52k of about £540/month. After the taper changes that person would get a bit more - approx £775. The paragraph in that article stating that only after the change in taper rate can a single parent on £52k claim Universal Credit is untrue; they can now.

TL:DR answer is that if you pay the market rate for rent in some areas and have kids then you can earn £50k and still get UC.

Edited by Bromptonaut on 12/11/2021 at 13:54

New Universal Cedit Threshold - Bromptonaut

Work through those figures again and another thing becomes apparent.

Government are trumpeting the reduction in the taper rate as good news, rewarding working claimants etc. Which is, taken alone, good stuff.

However the change is a quid pro quo to make withdrawal of the £20/week uplift palatable to the back benches.

Using the example above of a single parent on £52k/pa and renting a 3 bed in outer London they will gain approx £235/month from the taper reduction. OK, they've lost the uplift of approx £87 so a net gain of £148.

Their neighbour, similar in age etc but unable to work as she cares for her sick Mother, has lost £20 uplift but with no compensating gain.

Money taken from the poorest and given to the much less poor.

New Universal Cedit Threshold - Engineer Andy

Amazing how complex these rules are. I see why you (still) get a lot of 'business' at your CAB.

I remember when I was looking to buy my first (current) home back in late 2005 - early 2006, and one I liked was a 'shared ownership' 2-bed end-terrace house (which had a very nice 3-car driveway in lieu of a garage, nice garden with a shed) going for the princely sum of £132.5k with a £200 ground rent (those were the days).

The housing association that ran the scheme only notified me that they had the same condition of £16k savings = no chance of buying it, which I took exception to given salary meant nothing, but savings did. They actually agreed with me that if I bought a Porsche Boxster to deplete my savings to duck under, I would be ok.

Similarly with JSA when I was out of work - because I was (and still am) thrifty and save/spend wisely and sparingly rather than spray my money around, I was always penalised by only ever being due the basic £70ish a week JSA when I had never been at any point a higher-rate taxpayer, whereas others who were but spent, spent, spent and thus had little savings were entitled to more of the 'means-tested' benefits.

No wonder so many people stay on benefits - there's no reason to behave responsibly. UC was supposed to reward that, but it appears that it still has some way to go - even if its inception by IDS was an honourable concept.

I suspect, like many government behemoth systems, changing them and getting those delivering them to both chip in with good ideas, proper constructive feedback and to be positive in trying to improve the system for its clients (not for those delivering them, as it often is).

If those working in that dept, the Treasury (who always seem to [eventually] get the Chancellor to do their bidding) and others jockeying for power/influence get their way, as they always seem to, such systems rarely get better. -rather like every Chancellor of the Exch. who says they will simlify the tax system and ends up doing the exact opposite (apart from Gordon Brown, who deliberately and openly expanded it and made it far more complex).

As Scotty from Star Trek (III) said: "The more you overtake the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain".

New Universal Cedit Threshold - sammy1

Sad that anyone earning £50K a year cannot sort their life out without resort to GOV interference but hey if its there why not.

New Universal Cedit Threshold - alan1302

Sad that anyone earning £50K a year cannot sort their life out without resort to GOV interference but hey if its there why not.

You don't have to accept it - I expect many people earning that much won't claim either.

New Universal Cedit Threshold - Bromptonaut

Sad that anyone earning £50K a year cannot sort their life out without resort to GOV interference but hey if its there why not.

The point that arises is that if you have to rent in a pricey area, rent being 50% of your net earnings, then £50k doesn't go as far as you might think.

New Universal Cedit Threshold - Engineer Andy

Sad that anyone earning £50K a year cannot sort their life out without resort to GOV interference but hey if its there why not.

The point that arises is that if you have to rent in a pricey area, rent being 50% of your net earnings, then £50k doesn't go as far as you might think.

Indeed, they are practically out on the streets, the poor dears. Perhaps we should send them some money for bread and milk.

New Universal Cedit Threshold - Bromptonaut

Andy, I'm not sure what your message is here but on a few factual points.

My 'bag' is benefits not housing so no direct experience of capital limits for shared ownership in the noughties. However, if the supply is limited and the intention is to get those who could not otherwise get on the ladder then it's not unreasonable to set a capital limit.

In reality if you'd bought a Boxter and it was (balance of probability) the case that you'd done so to duck under the tape then you'd find the meaning of the phrase Notional Capital.

As I understand it you're a single bloke with a mortgage. Governments of both stripes have, over the years, made it more and more difficult to get help with mortgage interest whilst on benefits. Giving people money towards an appreciating asset doesn't play well with the 'audience'.

The basic £70/week (now £74.70) is all you'd get; means test or not. Except while the uplift was in payment you'd get pretty much the same on Universal Credit. Only of you have kids, rent, caring responsibility or serious health problems would you have got more.

As to people staying on benefits can you actually offer some evidence?

Obviously if there's a disability/long term health issue or caring responsibility then while those factors are extant one should stay on benefits. The unemployed and those with lesser health issues are encouraged into work.

The person most responsible for moving away from the IDS concept of Universal Credit was George Osborne; that was why IDS resigned.

New Universal Cedit Threshold - Ethan Edwards

The way this is going. Everyone will pay the state 100% of your earnings and be given pocket money. That's the day I quit and let the state support me.

New Universal Cedit Threshold - Engineer Andy

The way this is going. Everyone will pay the state 100% of your earnings and be given pocket money. That's the day I quit and let the state support me.

That's what the World Economic Forum (WEF) and their corporate and mainstream politician stooges want. You'll own nothing, live in the pod, have no privacy, rent everything, eat the bugs and be happy.

Meanwhile, the rich and powerful elites jet away to their (now far less crowded) holiday destinations without the riff-raff whilst they throw a few scraps in UBI to use to pretend our 'lives' such as they will be, as worthwhile.

New Universal Cedit Threshold - Engineer Andy

Andy, I'm not sure what your message is here but on a few factual points.

My 'bag' is benefits not housing so no direct experience of capital limits for shared ownership in the noughties. However, if the supply is limited and the intention is to get those who could not otherwise get on the ladder then it's not unreasonable to set a capital limit.

The problem with that is that it actively encourages people to spend, spend, spend and not be responsible (previously known as 'thrifty') with money. I personally know people in the same situation salary and circumstances wise as me but who spend like it's gone out of fashion - they would've qualified to be able to buy that home, as they would means-tested benefits - including housing benefit when unemployed.

In reality if you'd bought a Boxter and it was (balance of probability) the case that you'd done so to duck under the tape then you'd find the meaning of the phrase Notional Capital.

Essentially what I was getting at was I could've bought a brand/nearly new car (using my capital), bought the home, then sold the car after it likely (at the time anyway) appreciated in value, thus getting around the rules.

The same may have been possible for the benefits - though I'm unsure whether they check/ask for a list of 'major assets' that a person owns when applying for benefits.

As I understand it you're a single bloke with a mortgage. Governments of both stripes have, over the years, made it more and more difficult to get help with mortgage interest whilst on benefits. Giving people money towards an appreciating asset doesn't play well with the 'audience'.

I've never wanted 'help' with my mortgage - my issue always was that others who frankly don't deserve it because they were not sensible with their money get benefits.

If I designed the benefits system, whether people got benefits would very much depend upon a) how much they've earned over X years (including spouses, and, where applicabale, children living in and tenants/lodgers at their home) and then calculated a reasonable level of spending based on reasonable outgoings they would need whilst living there.

If they frittered it away (as described above), that's their fault and at most they'd get the barest to live on, perhaps even requiring them to move home, especially if their previous spending meant they wasted money when they could've saved up for this proverbial 'hard times' (as I did) so that things like mortgage repayments were (in their case, not mine) at least still contributed to in part by them.

I know many people who've lost their jobs over the years who live in expensive areas and off their own bat relocate because it would be unfair for the taxpayer to subsidise a big mortgage or rent, and besides, it often means they can live at a lower cost as well as look for work in other area.

This was one of the chief reasons why I a) did not spend that much before buying my first home, building up a decent-sized deposit (and thus reducing the mortgage repayments and knowing I still had some left over in case of periods of unemployment) and b) bought my home in a reasonably-priced (but nice) area that I could still reasonably reach large urban centres without breaking the bank in travel costs.

I think that too many people these days don't ever consider what may happen if they lose their job and think the taxpayer will pick up the bill via the benefits system, hence why so many people are not sensible with their income - the system actively encourage such behaviour.

The basic £70/week (now £74.70) is all you'd get; means test or not. Except while the uplift was in payment you'd get pretty much the same on Universal Credit. Only of you have kids, rent, caring responsibility or serious health problems would you have got more.

As to people staying on benefits can you actually offer some evidence?

Years worth of newspaper reporting have ably described 'the benefit trap' - noting that it was one Gordon Brown whose policies of tax credits and widfall taxes on pensions stopped people saving and encouraged spending (mostly on credit) as well as welfare dependancy. I mean why try and better yourself to earn more if you've got it mostly paid for you with practically zero effort on your side?

Obviously if there's a disability/long term health issue or caring responsibility then while those factors are extant one should stay on benefits. The unemployed and those with lesser health issues are encouraged into work.

The person most responsible for moving away from the IDS concept of Universal Credit was George Osborne; that was why IDS resigned.

Yes, I know, but I don't recall you ever were a 'fan' of IDS's original plans either.

New Universal Cedit Threshold - sammy1

Meanwhile today most OAPs are sweating on whether they will receive a pension increase of 2.5% or the Triple lock of 8%. If the manifesto promise is broken may be a compromise of something in the middle but I doubt it

New Universal Cedit Threshold - madf

Anyone who believes anything a politician says is naive.

Anyone who believes any promise made by a politician is beyond naive: "stupid" might be apt. After all, UK political history is full of broken political promises from all parties.

New Universal Cedit Threshold - Bromptonaut

Meanwhile today most OAPs are sweating on whether they will receive a pension increase of 2.5% or the Triple lock of 8%. If the manifesto promise is broken may be a compromise of something in the middle but I doubt it

The only reason the triple lock is giving 8% is because of a statistical lacuna because of the pandemic. Wages fell rapidly at the start of the pandemic and have now recovered. The drop wasn't reflected in last year's pension award and there's no rationale for allowing the return to normal to increase pensions.

There may be other reasons why the basic pension should rise by more than RPI but wage changes from 2020 to 2021 isn't amongst them.