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"The traditional evening peak of electricity demand is between 6 and 8pm, and this might well coincide with people returning from their commute and plugging in their cars.
If we want to provide sufficient infrastructure and energy for EVs as cheaply as possible for consumers, we ideally don’t want to add to that evening peak and need to spread that demand better.
With this in mind, recently the Government’s EV Energy Taskforce recommended that all future car chargers should be ‘smart by design’. This means that no matter what time you come home and plug your car in at, it will charge when you need it but will pause during that evening peak when energy is most expensive and demand on the grid is highest."
www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/5...d
Note the date: 10th February 2020
Edited by madf on 12/09/2021 at 15:11
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A good interview with Graeme Cooper from the National Grid - youtu.be/eaE57tChPQM
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So you get home from work and need to out in the evening, your EV needs charging and the smart technology won't let you have any power?
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So you get home from work and need to out in the evening, your EV needs charging and the smart technology won't let you have any power?
You will be able to override it. But if you do, just as the energy supplier has to pay a fortune for ad hoc supply at peak times when sun and wind are absent, so will you.
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So you get home from work and need to out in the evening, your EV needs charging and the smart technology won't let you have any power?
You will be able to override it. But if you do, just as the energy supplier has to pay a fortune for ad hoc supply at peak times when sun and wind are absent, so will you.
Lets hope they come up with better batteries, quantumscape maybe using layered batteries that are 80% higher storage capacity with the ability to travel 1k miles or more, Tesla are looking into it
Save all that fafing about if they work
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What happens if you just use a 3 pin plug to charge your EV..?
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"What happens if you just use a 3 pin plug to charge your EV..?"
Presumably you need (a) some kind of interface (i.e. charger/transformer/rectifier) and (b) lots of time.
I believe this is already an option for EV's anyway.
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You can charge an EV on a 13 amp household socket - it takes a long ttime.
The average EV does 3-4 miles per kilowatt of charge. So the typical modern EV with a range of ~200 miles probably has a ~40-50 KWH battery.
A domestic socket delivers ~3 KW per hour. Charging from "empty" will take around 16 hours. Normal behaviour would be to recharge when the remaining battery falls to ~30% - so an overnight job.
If your lifestyle means arriving home after a long commute with <10% of battery left, then going to see some mates 50 miles away, an EV is not for you. Most don't live like this - it just needs a brain capable of planning a battery charge before it actually runs out.
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The average EV does 3-4 miles per kilowatt of charge. So the typical modern EV with a range of ~200 miles probably has a ~40-50 KWH battery.
Just to be clear - I presume you mean per kilowatt-hour - especially as you go on to mention KWH ? So 20 minutes charging from a 13amp outlet will take your car the 3-4 miles ?
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It’ll charge, but veeerrryyy slowly. Expect it to take 24-48 hours (depending on battery capacity) to go from 0-100% charge.
Most EV’s come with a Type 2 to Type 2 lead for use with a wall box, some will also bundle a 3 pin to Type 2 lead with the car - Polestar for one.
Also bear in mind that we’re close to having widespread car-to-grid utilisation, whereby the, maybe, 30-40Kwh in the car can be used to assist in running a household during periods of peak demand, only then to be charged from 1am when the grid is clean & green (and cheap!).
Edited by mcb100 on 13/09/2021 at 19:21
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If EV's were required to pay road tax it would take some of the pressure of NI increases. The people with plenty of readies buying EVs over £40k would also feel the pain of some of the rest of us. Looking forward what will be the % of EVs at the 2030 point and how will the loss of duty on carbon fuel be made up. I cannot see cheap electric for your EV going forward and if road charging is the answer than many will find some way of avoiding that. Just maybe Ev's will be old tech in 10 years time?
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Just maybe Ev's will be old tech in 10 years time?
The speed the tech is going they probably will be out of date by 2030, better, more efficient motors, smaller batteries with higher capacity, and longer lasting ie, will do more Miles and last longer than the car
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I'm sure the Govt. is already thinking of ways to increase taxes to make up for the £21bn a year it gets in fuel tax - and then the VAT on top.
Forgot to mention my neighbour's daughter charges her Corsa when she visits using an extension cable but she said it does take a long time. She stays overnight when she visits so not a problem in this case. She had a Leaf before but is really impressed with the Corsa.
Edited by Xileno on 13/09/2021 at 20:43
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I've just bought a Mokka e. Very similar to the Corsa e. I'm also having a 7kw wall charger installed at the moment. There is no specific requirement to have a so called smart charger at present. So I'm not.
Ok you don't get your 350 back (olev grant) but A only you control it and B it's cheaper than a smart charger (bout 150 quid plus).
Evs charge at different rates and depending on battery capacity take varying times to charge. But for reference the Mokka ( approximately) from zero to 100pct takes 22hrs on a 3pin plug. 11 hours on 7kw home box or on a high power public charger 100kw about an hour. But who runs it to zero? Tesla and others with larger batteries will take longer. Leaf a bit less. Hope that helps.
Edited by Ethan Edwards on 13/09/2021 at 20:56
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Using an extension lead isn’t recommended, unless it’s specified for the job. There are recorded instances of extension leads burning out when charging an EV. The best solution, if using a 3 pin plug, is to plug the car’s lead straight into a wall socket.
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Thanks for the warning. I'm not sure what extension cable it is although it looks heavy duty, not the sort of cable one would normally use around the house. She had a Leaf before so must know what she's doing.
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Saw an interesting TV programme about e-aeroplanes. The most eye opening was one with a hydrogen cell that couldn't provide enough power for take off, but could cruise easily on the hydrogen cell output giving it a useful range. Take off power was enhanced by re-chargeable batteries. Perhaps the future?
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Thanks for the warning. I'm not sure what extension cable it is although it looks heavy duty, not the sort of cable one would normally use around the house. She had a Leaf before so must know what she's doing.
One additional point - if using an extension lead coiled on a drum, make sure to extend it all, or heating will be concentrated in the coil.
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One additional point - if using an extension lead coiled on a drum, make sure to extend it all, or heating will be concentrated in the coil.
Presumably eddy currents? I was taught to wind both ends onto a coil together, thus eliminating eddy currents.
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So, we have a big push to EV's but with the mothballing of coal-fired power stations and Hinkley point power station not due to come on stream until 2026, it's a poorly planned transformation.
You should not be promoting a change to EV's, one which is quite clearly gathering pace, when the charging infrastructure isn't in place, nor the ability for a driver to plan their stops, particularly as large swathes of the country still have no chargers within a reasonable distance.
As someone who would consider a swap to an EV if the price/range/charging infrastructure was favourable, such a move for me is at least 3 years away.
The other detracting factors are the need for a multiplicity of apps to get the car charged and the mess of all the various connecting systems and leads. This is copy and paste from one EV charging site of the different types:
0 x 3kW 13/16A Unknown
1 x 3kW 13A 3-Square pin
0 x 3kW 13A Commando
0 x 3kW 16A Type 2 Mennekes
0 x 3kW 16A Type 1 Yazaki
1 x 7kW 32A Commando
0 x 7kW 32A Type 2 Mennekes
0 x 22kW 32A Commando
0 x 22kW 32A Type 2 Mennekes
0 x 7kW 32A Tesla Type 2
0 x 11kW 16A Tesla Type 2
0 x 22kW 32A Tesla Type 2
0 x 7kW 32A Type 1 Yazaki
0 x 43kW 63A Type 2 Mennekes
0 x 50kW 125A JEVS (CHAdeMO)
0 x 120kW (Tesla) Tesla Type 2
0 x N/A H35 or equiv
0 x N/A H70 or equiv
0 x 50kW 125A CCS (Combo)
What a confusing mess.
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"What a confusing mess"
Hmmm - The gloss is fast wearing off of Bojo's EV plan.
That's the same in principle to having 19 different separate types of diesel or petrol fuel available but only one will make your car run :-)
The Law of Logical Argument applies - "Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about"
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In the real world, it’s not that complicated - the near universal connection is a Type 2. If a car supports rapid charging, you remove a rubber cover and convert a Type 2 to a CCS.
The only other option is Chademo, but this is being superseded by CCS.
Tesla went their own way initially, but in Europe initially, are moving to Type 2/CCS.
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""In the real world, it’s not that complicated ""
It sounds more like a computer programming language to me. How does the average person begin to understand the Gobbledegoch that is EV. Even the marketing is complicated from the KW of the cars to the whole charging system. If you want to complicate your life and increase your stress levels than EV is the place to go. In my opinion!
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About the same level of complication as choosing between regular and super unleaded petrol or regular or premium diesel.
The larger capacity (Kw/h) battery, the further it’ll go. The higher the number for charging (Kw), the shorter time you’ll spend plugged in.
If the average person were to spend a little time researching it, they’d find it’s really not that difficult.
Written with some authority as few are more average than I…
Edited by mcb100 on 14/09/2021 at 16:20
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The UK government is slowly backing itself into a corner with it's insane energy policy - or lack of a cognisant energy policy.
Boris shoots his mouth off banning the sale of new petrol and diesel cars by 2030 and is the UK's chief fanboy for electric cars and heat pumps for heating houses.
Now the cold hand of reality grips the power generation situation when they now find that there is insufficient generating capacity to support the charging of the much hyped EV's, even at the present level of ownership, at peak times.
Never mind the banning of gas boilers to be replaced by heat pumps - that will mean more load on the grid that was taken up by gas, now to be on the electrical grid.
So while demonizing petrol and diesel vehicles because of their nasty CO2 emissions,,the UK government seems content to use gas for around 50% of it's power generation via closed circuit gas turbine power stations (CCGT) which pump out as of 2021-09-14 22:35:00 GMT 6.13 kilotons of CO2 per hour, that's 613,000 tons of CO2 per hour!
For the current figure go to gridwatch.co.uk/co2-emissions.
So don't feel too guilty about firing up the family diesel SUV tomorrow morning!
Edited by focussed on 14/09/2021 at 23:56
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""In the real world, it’s not that complicated ""
It sounds more like a computer programming language to me. How does the average person begin to understand the Gobbledegoch that is EV. Even the marketing is complicated from the KW of the cars to the whole charging system. If you want to complicate your life and increase your stress levels than EV is the place to go. In my opinion!
It's only complicated if you want it to be.
Having 2 or 3 connector types in hardly what I'd call complicated. How is it complicated for you? Think you may find it complicated because you don't one so try and make out something is complicated when it's not.
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""In the real world, it’s not that complicated ""
It sounds more like a computer programming language to me. How does the average person begin to understand the Gobbledegoch that is EV. Even the marketing is complicated from the KW of the cars to the whole charging system. If you want to complicate your life and increase your stress levels than EV is the place to go. In my opinion!
It's only complicated if you want it to be.
Having 2 or 3 connector types in hardly what I'd call complicated. How is it complicated for you? Think you may find it complicated because you don't one so try and make out something is complicated when it's not.
I have a really uncomplicated refuelling procedure.
Select diesel pump, unlock fuel filler, insert filler nozzle, fill tank, pay at kiosk.
Takes less than 5 minutes and gives more or less guaranteed mileage per fill.
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Tesla have a very uncomplicated procedure.
Reverse up to a Supercharger. Lift out charging cable (like a petrol pump). Charging flap opens automatically. Insert cable. Charging starts automatically. All the rest are still playing catchup. Nice if you can afford it!
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Electricity is much easier than carbon based fuels.
Kilowatts (KW) x time (hours) = kilowatt hours (KWH).
We measure fuel in litres or gallons. We have three main "fuel grades" 95RON, 97RON and diesel. We measure the energy in fuel by joules.
We measure vehicle fuel efficiency by mpg or l/100km. For EV it is simply miles (or possibly kilometers) per KWH.
Having a range of different connectors and payment methods is an overly complex nonsense - but not dissimilar to the early days of any technology - phone chargers, video cassettes, computer interfaces and cables etc.
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One additional point - if using an extension lead coiled on a drum, make sure to extend it all, or heating will be concentrated in the coil.
Presumably eddy currents? I was taught to wind both ends onto a coil together, thus eliminating eddy currents.
It acts like a coil -heats up and can burn the lead/coil out due to emf electro magnetic field which all cables produce, but coiled up creates heat and burns cable out...
Seen a few coiled extention leads burn out over the years but people still keep coiled even in use
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Extension leads should have 2 ratings visible, if anyone bothered to read them. One for uncoiled and a lower one for fully coiled.
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Extension leads should have 2 ratings visible, if anyone bothered to read them. One for uncoiled and a lower one for fully coiled.
Every one I have bought has a notice on it saying to unwind before use, but as you say not many bother to look at them????
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This morning's news is not good for users of electricity in the UK.
The French>UK interconnector is currently out of service and following an initial review, National Grid said 1,000MW of capacity is unavailable until 27th March 2022.
www.energylivenews.com/2021/09/16/large-fire-at-ke.../
If the winter is a cold one with high pressure over the UK, meaning calm windless conditions and no power from the windmills, and the lack of daylight meaning little solar power , charging your electric car may be the least of your worries.
Edited by focussed on 16/09/2021 at 08:39
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Better keep those coal-fired power stations running a bit longer then. Don't tell Greta.
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This morning's news is not good for users of electricity in the UK.
The French>UK interconnector is currently out of service and following an initial review, National Grid said 1,000MW of capacity is unavailable until 27th March 2022.
www.energylivenews.com/2021/09/16/large-fire-at-ke.../
If the winter is a cold one with high pressure over the UK, meaning calm windless conditions and no power from the windmills, and the lack of daylight meaning little solar power , charging your electric car may be the least of your worries.
Blow the EV as long as I can use normal home appliances the EVs can stay off road, though, IMO, its too early to buy electric cars as the tech is changing far too quickly
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There is a world gas shortage. Prices have quadrupled since 2020.
The UK has stopped storing gas for a reserve.
We rely on Gas Fired Power Stations to cope with shortfalls in green wind/solar and 30% of power.
Prepare for a cold winter!
Edited by madf on 16/09/2021 at 12:36
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""""The French>UK interconnector is currently out of service and following an initial review, National Grid said 1,000MW of capacity is unavailable until 27th March 2022.""
It is a pity that the UK had even considered an Electricity supply from the French and not made our own provision secure, they have had plenty of time to think about it. Now we have gone and upset the French by signing up to a Nuclear Pack with the USA and Australia excluding them. They may well find another customer for their surplus supply has the fire that caused the problem is ours.
As regards cars, the cut of date of 2030 for fossil fuel may be a bit premature.
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"They may well find another customer for their surplus supply has the fire that caused the problem is ours."
Depends how the contract is worded. I expect the French are still getting paid as they're delivering the electricity, it's just we can't use it...
"As regards cars, the cut of date of 2030 for fossil fuel may be a bit premature."
I think we will start to see some back-tracking on these dates, gas boilers probably the first.
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Now we have gone and upset the French by signing up to a Nuclear Pack with the USA and Australia excluding them.
My paper says the Aussies 'tore up' an agreement with the French for a diesel-electric sub because they preferred a nuclear one. No doubt the French are peeved, but the fault doesn't seem to be ours ?
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There is a world gas shortage. Prices have quadrupled since 2020.
The UK has stopped storing gas for a reserve.
We rely on Gas Fired Power Stations to cope with shortfalls in green wind/solar and 30% of power.
Prepare for a cold winter!
More then 30% - gas is doing 46% of grid demand right now and usually does around 50%, it's only gone down because the sun has got his hat on and solar is doing about 16% but the windmills have run out of wind.
www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
What a way to run a country!
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Yep solar is worth having. Why haven't we made it mandatory for all new builds to have panels and encouraged retrofitting Solar PV.? Cost to taxpayers...marginal.
If you have a BEV surely it's feasible to have the car charge from the solar and act as a power reserve in the event of say a power cut? Betcha Elon is working on it.
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Yep solar is worth having. Why haven't we made it mandatory for all new builds to have panels and encouraged retrofitting Solar PV.? Cost to taxpayers...marginal.
The govt, or at least the power companies, did encourage 'retrofitting' solar PV about 2010, by offering high feed-in tariffs to such as ourselves. We have had 9 panels since late 2011 and still get the high payback tariff, tho later punters get much less. It was done to get the PV fitting business up and running, which it did.
I agree that more new builds should have it, but in these latitudes the optimum roof slope is fairly steep, and certainly flat roofs are sub-optimal.
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If you have a BEV surely it's feasible to have the car charge from the solar and act as a power reserve in the event of say a power cut? Betcha Elon is working on it.
Unfortunately, most cars are used during the day, when are you going to charge it, at night?
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If you are using the car during the day it is kinda difficult to charge it at the same time unless you have a very long floppy charging cable.
Normal behaviour is to charge at night when the car is parked and still.
Note - at night overall energy demand is typically ~30% below daytime levels. Total capacity will need some increase over the next 10-20 years to meet increased electrical demands for EVs and domestic heating.
But for now, providing solar does not make too large a contribution to energy generation, there should be capacity.
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But for now, providing solar does not make too large a contribution to energy generation, there should be capacity.
We will see on that one, the more cars are on charge in 10 years time I suspect the calculations will probably be a bit light, ie, not enough electricity to supply everyone but we will have to wait and see?
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Note - at night overall energy demand is typically ~30% below daytime levels. Total capacity will need some increase over the next 10-20 years to meet increased electrical demands for EVs and domestic heating.
Electrical demands wouldn't be high if geothermal heating had been installed on new builds years ago. It's not new technology, there is a huge natural heat source sitting under our feet and it's not going to run out. Drilling deep holes to lay vertical pipes (horizontal method cheaper but much more space dependent) is not cheap but best when done during construction. Pumps will still need powering but more efficient than air source heat pumps. And you have the ability to cool the house during the summer, something that might be relevant if the current trend continues.
I agree about the solar panel installation on an earlier post.
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