I drive a Jaguar I-Pace and my real world experience is that efficiency is at its best in stop start driving as you’re using regenerative braking quite a bit. I probably gain about 5 kWh of energy through regen braking in typical city stop start driving of about 15 - 20 miles. This all helps with powering lights and ventilation etc. Motorways are the least efficient roads for electric cars (increased wind resistance and no regen braking).
Agreed. I only got stuck in bad stop/start traffic a couple of times in my 225xe hybrid, but that was on all-electric with lights, heated seats, heater on etc for well over an hour each time and maybe used 40% of the traction battery's 7KW capacity.
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My understanding from reading EV experts is that the official WLTP figures are just as optimistic for EVs as they are for ICs - but different to IC, it seems that EVs give better "consumption" in urban traffic, thanks to regenerative braking, than open road consumption.
If you have a specific model in mind, it may be worth looking at the EPA figures for the same car in North America which give more information than European figures.
From the selection of cars I checked out, cruising at 70 on a motorway will roughly halve the quoted range.
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My experience is with a Skoda Superb iV thus it has a smaller battery but it still has official WLTP ranges and I have driven it in cold winter weather.
The official WLTP range is 35 miles. I charged it yesterday and the dash showed 34 miles of electricity. But in the cold weather last month a full charge only showed a range of 28 miles.
Out trip to Tesco is about 11 miles (mixed urban 30 mph and rural 60 mph) so even in winter with 28 miles on board we should manage it twice with no issues. We did but only just. On a cold winters morning the heating is working hard to heat the cars interior (the car is garaged so its not down to outside temperature) and the battery is probably not as efficient as it is in warmer weather. For the first couple of miles the range drops like a stone, probably uses 4 miles. This was done in daylight hours so no lights needed.
Another trip we made regularly was 80 miles to the MIL's whilst we were emptying the property to return to the council. We used the car in hybrid mode and on a cold wet day we would get home with about 5 or so miles left in the battery for pure electric running. On a mild day (like we had late February) we would get home with 10 miles of electricity.
This demonstrates to me that the weather makes a difference but since the iV is a plug in hybrid we don't have any range anxiety issues. What it does show is that a proper EV with a 200 WLTP range will probably do no more than 130 miles in cold weather, less if you are using the lights etc.
We all know the official figures are nonsense for ICE cars so why expect anything different for EV's.
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Simple formula:
WLTP - 20% = average real world use
Minus another 15% for winter
Minus another 10% for heating , lights and rain.
And if you are a hard /poor driver minus another 10%
So basically halve the WLTP figures in winter.
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Simple formula
EV just not worth buying far too expensive and too much hassle!
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I get the point about EV's being expensive, but your statement about "too much hassle" entirely depends on how you use the car. My use (more so in lockdown) is local journeys and the range is plenty. Coupled with the fact that I can charge at home, it would actually be more hassle for me to fill up at a petrol station if I had an ICE car.
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Totally agree, today's EVs will be old technology very soon. Remember buying an early computer, cost about £2k. Look at the present prices and performance compared with the old one. Same thing will happen to EVs. They will get better and cheaper.
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Pre-conditioning my 225xe while it was plugged in used to make quite a difference to range etc on cold days, as it got the battery pack pre-warmed and heated the interior nicely.
One of the things I really miss about it was going out on sub-zero mornings to a toasty warm, fully-defrosted car.
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Pre-conditioning my 225xe while it was plugged in used to make quite a difference to range etc on cold days, as it got the battery pack pre-warmed and heated the interior nicely.
One of the things I really miss about it was going out on sub-zero mornings to a toasty warm, fully-defrosted car.
That is not an option on the Superb unless you have a charging station at home. Using the 13 amp plug you can still set the "departure time" and benefit from low overnight rates and that's about it.
The cost of the charging station is not worth it for us. It takes about 5 1/2 hours for a full charge from the 13 amp plug so other than a warm car first thing there are no benefits especially considering that the car is always garaged. Mrs does like the seat heating on a cold morning.
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I am retired and considering buying an electric car. They have several advantage for me. No catalytic converter to nick ......
For most retirees doing a much reduced mileage EVs make no financial sense at all. Seven years ago I also considered an EV for retirement - for about 30 seconds. Instead, I bought an eight year old six litre 20mpg Audi for £12,000 (with six catalytic converters;) Since then it has done only another 22,000 miles which, at a fuel cost of around 30p per gallon, has added a further £6,600. It has cost less than £1000 for oil, front brake pads, some sway bar bushes and a 'bagpipingandy' WABCO compressor rejuvenation.
Some might think that this was a ridiculously risky and extravagant way to plan for my retirement motoring, but for this petrolhead it has been a great pleasure. I think seven years motoring in an equivalent electric car, e.g. Tesla Model S, would probably have cost double the £20K I have spent so far. They appear to depreciate enormously, which my Audi has now almost ceased to do.
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6 catalytic converters!
Had a look at bagpipingandy, interesting to see the same Wabco compressor is used in such a range of vehicles, from your A8 to my Discovery 2. I think some Tesla models have air suspension too?
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Pre-conditioning my 225xe while it was plugged in used to make quite a difference to range etc on cold days, as it got the battery pack pre-warmed and heated the interior nicely.
One of the things I really miss about it was going out on sub-zero mornings to a toasty warm, fully-defrosted car.
How is this environmentally OK. While you are heating your car like toast, a power station is working away somewhere pouring out pollution for you to get in a nice warm car. Totally demises the green argument for the justification of EVs or may be you never bought the car for the "better good"
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How is this environmentally OK. While you are heating your car like toast, a power station is working away somewhere pouring out pollution for you to get in a nice warm car. Totally demises the green argument for the justification of EVs or may be you never bought the car for the "better good"
I never said it was environmentally OK, nor have I attempted to justify it from any sort of 'green' position. I didn't buy the car for the 'better good' either, it was a company vehicle. I got a PHEV because of the low BIK tax. I no longer have that car.
No new car is 'environmentally OK.' Every single one consumes precious resources that are hard or impossible to replace, and causes pollution in one way or another. Yet here we all are on a motoring forum.
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6 catalytic converters!
O-o-o-oh yes. One primary for each bank of three cylinders, then one secondary for each side. At the last MoT (at 71,000 miles) my tester was astonished by the <200ppm HC value - just 1 ppm! It is a truly remarkable engine - must have cost a fortune to make.
Had a look at bagpipingandy, interesting to see the same Wabco compressor is used in such a range of vehicles, from your A8 to my Discovery 2. I think some Tesla models have air suspension too?
They do indeed - and there's a lot of problems to be found on the Tesla fora. It seems their compressor OEM is Arnott, but I have seen a site advertising a WABCO replacement.
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I am retired and considering buying an electric car. They have several advantage for me. No catalytic converter to nick ......
For most retirees doing a much reduced mileage EVs make no financial sense at all. Seven years ago I also considered an EV for retirement - for about 30 seconds.
Thanks to everyone for your helpful observations. In my own case, living in London, one of my most regular trips does involve crossing two low thingy zones at a cost of nearly £30 so the EV does make some sense.
I currently have a 7 year old Kia diesel, just out of warranty, so I'll probably run that into the ground and ditch it when I get an expensive repair. I used to live in France and thoroughly enjoyed driving there but on my return to life in the UK and the density of population, I just find it a chore. I am speaking of the South East, of course. Driving from St Louis in the Pyrenees to Carcassonne on virtually clear roads, it seem like a pipe dream now!
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That is not an option on the Superb unless you have a charging station at home. Using the 13 amp plug you can still set the "departure time" and benefit from low overnight rates and that's about it.
The cost of the charging station is not worth it for us.
I never had a charging point fitted at home either, for the same reason - the 225 had only a 7KW battery (the new ones now have 9KW as standard), which took around 3 hours to recharge from a 13A socket or 2 hours from a proper wallbox, so there was no real benefit.
I can see why the Skoda doesn't allow pre-conditioning from a 13A socket, it draws a lot of juice. On the 225 the pre-conditioning routine would take about 15% of the main battery's charge, even if still connected and charging. But as I never garaged the car, it was worth it. I just set the 'departure time' for 20 minutes earlier than I actually needed, to top the battery back up once conditioning was completed.
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I suspect we'll see preconditioning being offered on more PHEVS soon, as battery energy density improves further, it's a massive selling point surely. It would convince me! As to the environmental aspects, mankind can never " consume" his way green. There are too many of us. But we can strive to be more efficient and huge strides have been made on power generation, just take a look at national grid today, 39% from renewable, ok I know it's sunny today but nevertheless it's impressive and a help. And not forgetting the typical EV is from memory about 80% efficient from grid to wheels whereas the ICE is around 30% or less. Not that I'll be buying one soon as they're too expensive!
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One thing to bear in mind is if you buy a high-performance EV and frequently make use of its full capabilities, it'll use up its battery charge like a high-powered petrol car empties its fuel tank! But still more efficient though.
Edited by Sofa Spud on 16/03/2021 at 17:20
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The laws of physic don't change just because a car is an EV.
Fuel (KW, petrol or diesel) is consumed at a faster rate the faster the vehicle goes - aerodynamic drag and friction being the main elements.
The other fuel hungry behaviour is exploiting performance. Petrol and diesel use high revs to accelerate fast, then turn speed into heat and brake pad wear to slow down. EV have regenerative braking - but this is not 100% efficient - more like 60-70%. So a win for the EV.
Whether travelling fast, slow or congested energy is used for car ancilliaries and comfort. The main power drain is heating or aircon. For ICE this is mainly a by product of the engine running, for EV it drains the battery. So a win for ICE.
What has this to do with EV range - exploit the performance and range will fall. It will fall further if the weather is cold - by about 18% on average in normal cold UK weather, not the 50% suggested above.
www.autoblog.com/2020/03/21/electric-cars-cold-wea.../
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Energy for the heating still comes from burning fuel, so ICE can't be seen as a winner as the fuel tank runs empty eventually!
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