Electric Cars, future ?? | Motoring discussion | Back Room Forum

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Wed 15 Jan 2020 13:24

Electric Cars, future ?? - HGV ~ P Valentine

www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/how-far-do-the-most-po...p

It is a fact that manufacturers make bold claims on cars performance, the above report adds weight to this opinion, for me the most dangerous part is that once it goes to dead the car becomes dangerous because as reported the steering locks up.

On a recent reshow of top gear, they showed that in some towns there are no electric points for the car to charge, and if you do need to top up then have money for a B&B as it is a 12 hour charge to top up.

The gov wants us to all have electric cars in the future, but for me the inconvenience of having one, and the !0'000 extra you pay over a same spec petrol car makes it unworkable.

Hybrids for me are the best of both worlds, but again you pay a lot for a hybrid car of the same spec, so you have to keep it for a decade to get back the extra money you pay over the money you save on petrol.

What do you think ?? I esp want to hear from people who have all electric cars and not hybrids.

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Thu 16 Jan 2020 12:33

Electric Cars, future ?? - Gibbo_Wirral

I move around with work so I never own a property. Sometimes I get a place with a driveway, sometimes not. So as much as I'd love an electric car, its just not practical.

I did see a car on the street with a charge cable hooked up to a streetlamp, but all it takes is one scallywag to mess with it and next morning you wake to find a flat car.

Or what if you get home and find a regular petrol car parked beside the charge point?

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Thu 16 Jan 2020 13:03

Electric Cars, future ?? - gordonbennet

What do i think?

That younger folk will have to make their own decisions and try, just as we have, to second guess what any current or future govt of the day will do when its their turn to ruin what's left of the country.

For me, i have no intention and no interest in an electric car, cheap charging without a tax penalty is only going to be the case for so long, and once there are systems in place making it impossible to charge or drive an electric vehicle without equivalent taxes being imposed, then the true cost of electric car ownership will be revealed, good luck to those enjoying the current honeymoon period especially those who get a company or similar car allowance and only have to pay some sort of BiK and possibly the odd charge up at home or on holiday to tick a private usage box.

By the time my fossil fuel cars have expired or my choice to replace with similar used has been outlawed i'll be long retired and i'll galdy use taxis for the few journeys i wish to make, public transport is fine too of course but whether the streets of our towns will be safe for a 80+ year old twenty years hence is the question, we don't all live in protected earmarked parts of the country like the Cotswolds and what the future country will be like for the pleb class is anyone's guess.

We may find that which fuel is used for safe transport is the least of our concerns by 2020.

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Thu 16 Jan 2020 14:52

Electric Cars, future ?? - Bolt

What do i think?

That younger folk will have to make their own decisions and try, just as we have, to second guess what any current or future govt of the day will do when its their turn to ruin what's left of the country.

For me, i have no intention and no interest in an electric car, cheap charging without a tax penalty is only going to be the case for so long, and once there are systems in place making it impossible to charge or drive an electric vehicle without equivalent taxes being imposed, then the true cost of electric car ownership will be revealed, good luck to those enjoying the current honeymoon period especially those who get a company or similar car allowance and only have to pay some sort of BiK and possibly the odd charge up at home or on holiday to tick a private usage box.

By the time my fossil fuel cars have expired or my choice to replace with similar used has been outlawed i'll be long retired and i'll galdy use taxis for the few journeys i wish to make, public transport is fine too of course but whether the streets of our towns will be safe for a 80+ year old twenty years hence is the question, we don't all live in protected earmarked parts of the country like the Cotswolds and what the future country will be like for the pleb class is anyone's guess.

We may find that which fuel is used for safe transport is the least of our concerns by 2020.

I agree, and their is the point of getting people over to EVs as there are a lot of stories about cars running so low on juice they have to be taken to nearest electric point

I`ve seen a few at the side of main roads that were out of juice, thats around my area, so if there is a lot more its likely there will be more run low, especially as some makers say to run without heater to keep warm(sorry but blow that for a lark) I go by car for comfort not to freeze on the way

on looking at you tube noticed several that went on long trips in USA along certain charger routes that weren't up to the job ie charge rate was slower than advertised rate, they were meant to charge to full in an hour roughly but meter said 12 hours

until they get this right and chargers more reliable I doubt people will go for them so Hybrid I reckon will be the way for a few years

and according to certain channels connection problems are common as well meaning some are not compatible with certain cars so with these complications your easier going Hybrid, But thats only my opinion

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Sat 18 Jan 2020 09:41

Electric Cars, future ?? - Andrew-T

<< until they get this right and chargers more reliable I doubt people will go for them so Hybrid I reckon will be the way for a few years >>

I think there is rather more to 'getting it right' than people imagine. Our electric system is designed to cope with the personal use of normal household devices with fairly modest demand. Expecting it to pump energy back into many vehicles at roughly the rate they use it, requires heavier duty cabling, unless recharging overnight will be OK. It will take some time to lay cables to enough charging points to compare with today's petrol stations (though there aren't as many of those as there were).

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Sat 18 Jan 2020 08:43

Electric Cars, future ?? - FiestaOwner

To me there are 3 issues with electric cars at the present:

1) Substantially higher purchase price, compared to an internal combustion engined car.

2) Charging related issues.

Can't see electric cars really taking off until wireless charging is sorted out. Perhaps some sort of system on trunk roads (and motorways etc). to enable wireless charging while you drive.

I see the present charging cable as a stop gap measure until wireless charging is implemented.

Who wants to faff about plugging charging cables in when you arrive at your destination in the middle of a storm? You just want to run to shelter, as we currently do. Who wants to be handling a charging cable which has just been in a muddy puddle (or worse).

3) Capacity in the electricity grid to cope with the extra demand, at a reasonable cost to the end user.

The green bodies are wanting people to move away from gas central heating. That will mean even more demand on the electricity network.

Gas is around 3p/kWh Electricity is around 15p/kWh you can get an overnight electric rate of about 10p/kWh. Electricity isn't at a competitive price just now. It will only rise higher (and faster) when there are more demands on the grid.

If/ when the above issues are dealt with, electric cars will become a sensible viable option for us, and I would certainly buy one.

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Sat 18 Jan 2020 09:45

Electric Cars, future ?? - Andrew-T

<< I see the present charging cable as a stop gap measure until wireless charging is implemented. >>

Tell us more. In an imaginary world full of cars being charged while travelling, will we all be slowly microwaved? And why not drive the motor directly?

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Sat 18 Jan 2020 11:02

Electric Cars, future ?? - FiestaOwner

<< I see the present charging cable as a stop gap measure until wireless charging is implemented. >>

Tell us more. In an imaginary world full of cars being charged while travelling, And why not drive the motor directly?

OK. Here's an article from 2018. Scroll down to the section "Charging while driving":

www.techradar.com/uk/news/wireless-electric-vehicl...g

will we all be slowly microwaved?

You'll need to ask Qualcomm, it's their system in the article.

And why not drive the motor directly?

Because such a system will never cover all back roads (and driveways and every possible parking space). You still need batteries to drive on sections not covered by the wireless infrastructure.

Andrew-T, you clearly disagree with what I posted, I have questioned the viability of EV's on this forum before. At the present time I don't consider an EV's as a viable option for myself either.

Technology is improving though and the three issues I detailed in my last post are the ones preventing me buying an EV at present.

However, if you've been keeping up with the news and green issues you can be in no doubt that the days of the internal combustion engines are numbered. In the not too distant future the choice is going to be EV or no car.

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Sat 18 Jan 2020 11:26

Electric Cars, future ?? - madf

Given the Uk grid failed last year in some parts of teh country - between 2pm to 6om in some places - ANY suggestion of charging on the move is unlikely to be anything but a topup system..

https://theenergyst.com/millions-electric-vehicles-sooner-predicted-no-sweat-says-national-grid/

shows that eelctricitry capacity will not be an issue.

BUT..

it also said:"While the UK’s generation mix is changing relatively quickly, the system is “very robust” and is responding to that change, said Cooper"

And then the system crashed as above... so I suspect the report is full of holes..

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Sat 18 Jan 2020 11:59

Electric Cars, future ?? - Bromptonaut

Given the Uk grid failed last year in some parts of teh country - between 2pm to 6om in some places

The outage on 09 August was a result of a sequence of events in rapid succession. Like any accident/incident there was an element of 'holes in cheese lining up'. Power was restored relatively quickly, under an hour.

The massive delays and inconvenience were on the railways where getting trains re-started was a huge problem.

Clearly you cannot eliminate possibility of another incident with similar consequences for the electricity network. At some time something similar will happen again; the system is designed to fail safe. I don't think such a possibility need weigh heavily on one's choice of an electric car.

As I've said before a lot of folks seem to see a move to electric vehicles through same prism as people regard major change at work, and are stuck in the anger/denial phase.

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Sat 18 Jan 2020 12:14

Electric Cars, future ?? - Bolt

As I've said before a lot of folks seem to see a move to electric vehicles through same prism as people regard major change at work, and are stuck in the anger/denial phase.

None Ive spoken too look at it like that, in fact most are looking forward to prices dropping so they can afford one, Tesla appear to be the favourites where EVs are concerned but the wait time is a long one ( I`ve no idea myself)

also they are not too bothered about a cable laying across the drive to the car but more concerned about cable thieves and charge points on a journey, having to go routes that have charging points may take them where they had no intentions of going just to charge

also the thought of no service costs or very little on an EV so it should be cheaper to run(until the government get ideas) that is?

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Sat 18 Jan 2020 12:20

Electric Cars, future ?? - Bromptonaut

None Ive spoken too look at it like that

Are we reading the same forum :-P

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Sat 18 Jan 2020 12:19

Electric Cars, future ?? - Bromptonaut

Clearly there are still technical limitations around electric cars but we're moving forward apace. Fifteen years ago the most common, maybe only, electric 'car' was the G-Whiz.

There are still a lot of problems to be solved with range (which inhibits long distance travel) and charging infrastructure. While those persist the electric car is not going to be for everybody.

How many of the 'what car should I buy' questions on here specify low annual mileage and a sub 50 mile round trip commute? There are millions of cars out there now that could be changed for electric with no impact whatever on their owners lives.

Having had my diesel car written off after an accident last autumn I thought seriously of a Leaf or Zoe to replace it. Use it for commute, shopping etc and all long distance stuff would fall to the Berlingo. We could have managed that.

What stopped me was fact that I was in a distress purchase situation. If it was a planned replacement I'd have had time to sort out a proper exploration of available models, costs etc. Needing a car 'this week' I couldn't manage that.

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Sat 18 Jan 2020 12:30

Electric Cars, future ?? - Terry W

Right now EVs do not make much sense for most users:

much higher capital/purchase cost
limited range and limited charging facilities (time and availablitity)
questionable battery life and depreciation

But looking forward 10-15 years the outlook could be very different:

extra capacity built into electricity distribution networks to allow recharging
battery technology improved with fast charging and/or replacable battery modules
battery costs reduced so no cost disadvantage to EVs
increased legislation over diesel and petrol engines to limit in town use
EV taxation advantages over petrol/diesel eliminated

Even now EVs are slowly being adopted by some groups of users for whom they already could make good sense - short runs, city use only, recharging facilities available - eg:

supermarket on-line deliveries
food takeaway (bikes and small cars)
home carers (although affordability an issue)
second car owners doing mainly low mileages
taxi services
buses

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Sat 18 Jan 2020 13:18

Electric Cars, future ?? - Zippy123

The lease company at work has just added Teslas to the scheme.

The range extended "3" now uses the drivers allowance plus an upgrade fee of £300 per month. Plus £8 a month company car tax.

Considering a Seat Leon Cupra uses the allowance in full and is £298 a month in BIK guess what everyone is choosing as their next car.

More and more clients are installing chargers in their car parks and chain hotels already have chargers and I guess will increase numbers as demand increases and a 300 + mile range should cope with 90% of journeys anyway.

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Sat 18 Jan 2020 13:39

Electric Cars, future ?? - Bromptonaut

Right now EVs do not make much sense for most users:

much higher capital/purchase cost

limited range and limited charging facilities (time and availablitity)

questionable battery life and depreciation

A lot of people use PCP (or lease). The monthly costs are higher for pure electric but far from being killer numbers. There's a massive cohort out there for whom range, in their normal usage, is no problem at all. A friend uses a Zoe an a regular (but not frequent) trip from Wrexham to Cardiff. He probably charges in Cardiff but charge points in cities are common place . He will have plans B, C and D up his sleeve as well as A but it's not THAT difficult. Battery life is, by now, a reasonably clear quantity as is depreciation. Latter obviously affects PCP charge but not enough for it to be a killer.

home carers (although affordability an issue)

second car owners doing mainly low mileages

TBH if you're a home care worker, or anyone else on Minimal Wages, affordability is an issue for anything. Low mileage and second car are different things; lots of people use both cars for next to nothing other than a commute.

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Sat 18 Jan 2020 23:44

Electric Cars, future ?? - alan1302

<< I see the present charging cable as a stop gap measure until wireless charging is implemented. >>

Tell us more. In an imaginary world full of cars being charged while travelling, will we all be slowly microwaved? And why not drive the motor directly?

The same way a wireless mobile phone gets charged without being plugged in - induction.

There are already trials with wireless charging points as well as charges built into the road to charge cars whilst they are travelling over them.

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Sat 18 Jan 2020 13:04

Electric Cars, future ?? - barney100

I suppose if you don't go far from home, getting to where you want to be and back on a charge then you might consider an EV. One poster reckons £10,000 more for an EV, something like 1,700 gallons of fuel? 76,500k at a rate of 45mpg, a small petrol can do this easily and a diesel very easily. Take me 10 years to run 76k up. Far too many problems with EVs for me.

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Sat 18 Jan 2020 13:27

Electric Cars, future ?? - Zippy123

The long term solution I see (crystal ball time and lots of investment - so it'll happen elsewhere before it happens here) is a Scalextric hybrid system.

Motorways and dual carriageways will have some form of electricity supply in the road, probably buried with a spring loaded pick up. Computers in the car would line the pick up to the groove or the power will be on a rail like the TCR competitors to Scalextrics.

Drivers would be charged a fee per mile and the system would power the vehicles and charge the battery.

Its not so far fetched: www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/apr/12/worlds...n

Then for lane changing and local roads the car's battery would be used.

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Sat 18 Jan 2020 13:56

Electric Cars, future ?? - Bolt

The long term solution I see (crystal ball time and lots of investment - so it'll happen elsewhere before it happens here) is a Scalextric hybrid system.

Motorways and dual carriageways will have some form of electricity supply in the road, probably buried with a spring loaded pick up. Computers in the car would line the pick up to the groove or the power will be on a rail like the TCR competitors to Scalextrics.

Drivers would be charged a fee per mile and the system would power the vehicles and charge the battery.

Its not so far fetched: www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/apr/12/worlds...n

Then for lane changing and local roads the car's battery would be used.

I cant see that system working here due to our roads being as bad as they are, and if they do anything I think it will be induction charging which is being used in electronic devices and works well

it also gives a car more freedom to move away from the charger without losing the charging ability where a pad on a track is either on or off

But I suspect someone will come up with a daft idea as per usual, an idea I heard about chargers was stations ie railway stations could build charging stations outside in car parks directly from the rail links which has been done AFAIA in a north London Tesla garage who tapped off the underground rail?

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Sat 18 Jan 2020 17:54

Electric Cars, future ?? - Andrew-T

<< Motorways and dual carriageways will have some form of electricity supply in the road, probably buried with a spring loaded pick up. Computers in the car would line the pick up to the groove or the power will be on a rail like the TCR competitors to Scalextrics. >>

That reminds me of Brunel's infamous atmospheric railway system, which lasted a year or two before its complete impracticability was realised. And paying for the power consumed will be interesting too.

I quite see that for many people whose cars never travel very far, an EV makes fair sense, as long as charging can be done easily as and when needed. But there are others with similar lifestyles who occasionally drive across the UK in the same car, which will require careful route planning until there are lots more charging points.

I heard the other day of a Leaf owner whose car is claimed to do about 150 miles on a charge, having to start a desperate search after only 90 miles. He quite reasonably expected to return home without that nuisance.

Edited by Andrew-T on 18/01/2020 at 17:59

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Sat 18 Jan 2020 18:04

Electric Cars, future ?? - Bolt

<< Motorways and dual carriageways will have some form of electricity supply in the road, probably buried with a spring loaded pick up. Computers in the car would line the pick up to the groove or the power will be on a rail like the TCR competitors to Scalextrics. >>

That reminds me of Brunel's infamous atmospheric railway system, which lasted a year or two before its complete impracticability was realised. And paying for the power consumed will be interesting too.

I quite see that for many people whose cars never travel very far, an EV makes fair sense, as long as charging can be done easily as and when needed. But there are others with similar lifestyles who occasionally drive across the UK in the same car, which will require careful route planning until there are lots more charging points.

I heard the other day of a Leaf owner whose car is claimed to do about 150 miles on a charge, having to start a desperate search after only 90 miles. He quite reasonably expected to return home without that nuisance.

Check on you tube, carwow did a test of I think 4 EVs maybe more I forget, how far they would go on a charge with only the necessities' working

results were not surprising but give a good idea of what they will do except on a cold day!

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Sat 18 Jan 2020 14:57

Electric Cars, future ?? - Leif

This is an interesting read:

https://www.advancedsciencenews.com/the-worlds-most-efficient-lithium-sulfur-battery/

They claim their batteries are more than four times as powerful as current lithium ion batteries. So, assuming this can be commercialised, either you buy less batteries, and your car is almost as cheap as an ICE car, or you pay a fortune and have a 1000 mile range. In the former case, the car will be much lighter, so a battery costing 1/4 the price of a normal one would give a bigger range, maybe 300 miles at a guess.

There are issues with electric cars, but they would suit many if not most of us. But electricity is expensive compared to petrol once you ignore the fuel tax on petrol.

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Sat 18 Jan 2020 15:23

Electric Cars, future ?? - Bolt

There are issues with electric cars, but they would suit many if not most of us. But electricity is expensive compared to petrol once you ignore the fuel tax on petrol.

Sounds good if it works but suspect electricity will get more expensive the more people use it.

there is plenty of R&D going on, so doubt it will be long before we see higher capacity and more efficient batteries come to market, also they are hoping to do what Musk is doing, building power walls for homes to take reliance off the grid

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Sat 18 Jan 2020 15:32

Electric Cars, future ?? - Bromptonaut

There are issues with electric cars, but they would suit many if not most of us. But electricity is expensive compared to petrol once you ignore the fuel tax on petrol.

Arithmetically that's correct.

A litre of petrol is (say) £1.27, divide by 120 and multiply by 100 for pre VAT price gives £1.06 of which 57.95 pence is duty so litre before tax is a whisker less than 50p .

Cost to charge a 40kW/h Leaf is say £7.60 for range of about 160/miles.

Since we all pay duty (and VAT on both fuel and duty) it's a bit hard to ignore.

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Sat 18 Jan 2020 18:02

Electric Cars, future ?? - Leif

There are issues with electric cars, but they would suit many if not most of us. But electricity is expensive compared to petrol once you ignore the fuel tax on petrol.

Arithmetically that's correct.

A litre of petrol is (say) £1.27, divide by 120 and multiply by 100 for pre VAT price gives £1.06 of which 57.95 pence is duty so litre before tax is a whisker less than 50p .

Cost to charge a 40kW/h Leaf is say £7.60 for range of about 160/miles.

Since we all pay duty (and VAT on both fuel and duty) it's a bit hard to ignore.

Indeed, you can’t ignore it, the point I was trying to make is that electric cars are not as cheap to run as some say, unless you get free electricity and that surely can’t last.

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Sat 18 Jan 2020 18:08

Electric Cars, future ?? - Bolt

There are issues with electric cars, but they would suit many if not most of us. But electricity is expensive compared to petrol once you ignore the fuel tax on petrol.

Arithmetically that's correct.

A litre of petrol is (say) £1.27, divide by 120 and multiply by 100 for pre VAT price gives £1.06 of which 57.95 pence is duty so litre before tax is a whisker less than 50p .

Cost to charge a 40kW/h Leaf is say £7.60 for range of about 160/miles.

Since we all pay duty (and VAT on both fuel and duty) it's a bit hard to ignore.

Indeed, you can’t ignore it, the point I was trying to make is that electric cars are not as cheap to run as some say, unless you get free electricity and that surely can’t last.

People I have spoken to that want an EV are expecting free or very cheap electric for life, due to the price of the cars, they aint gonna get it but thats what they hope will happen.

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Sat 18 Jan 2020 18:59

Electric Cars, future ?? - sammy1

People I have spoken to that want an EV are expecting free or very cheap electric for life, due to the price of the cars, they aint gonna get it but thats what they hope will happen.

At present you know what you are paying for your charge from 3rd party chargers and your home tariff. What happens if and when fuel duty and VAT is put on electric? Your 3rd party charger would presumably be a bit like your petrol pump so much per KW/h. But what of your domestic charge, how do you separate your washing machine and telly from your auto. Will you have to have a separate meter or will your smart meter know what is gobbling up the juice and change the rate. How would it tell if you are using your domestic at the same time?

Security of the consumer supply is going to be very important otherwise the concept of "FREE" fuel is going to be very tempting to some! Fiddling the lecy could become a new industry for some when the duties go on.

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Sat 18 Jan 2020 21:14

Electric Cars, future ?? - focussed

There will be no need to fiddle the leccy!

By then there will be pay as you drive road tax, so much per mile achieved electronically by some sort of GPS/satellite system. You will get a monthly invoice and if you don't pay it when it's due your super duper Electric Dream SportWagen will be disabled by the satellite system in the same manner as your access to Sky TV ceases if you miss the monthly payment.

The authorities won't be able to rip you off on the basis of how much CO2 like now, so they will choose something else like how much road space you occupy or the weight of your 4 wheeled battery box!

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Sat 18 Jan 2020 21:36

Electric Cars, future ?? - Terry W

One solution to charging for EVs is the road charging solution which I think government is fairly keen on anyway. This means fuel (petrol/diesel) duties can be reduced with taxes recovered from all vehicles either at a fixed rate or flexed depending on the size, cost, weight, time of day, roads used etc.

For most (not all) people range is not generally an issue for day to day use (commuting, shopping, social etc) providing there is access to charging at home or destination.

However it does mean that occasionally a journey will be beyond the safe effective range of the vehicle - for me this may mean that 10-20 times a year I would be seriously inconvenienced and have to hire an alternative. The solution may lie in car sharing apps which are becoming more acceptable (although I am not entirely convinced!).

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Sat 18 Jan 2020 23:46

Electric Cars, future ?? - Bolt

No but why would anyone want to hire a car when they have paid a fortune for an EV, most people would want to use the car they have, I know I would....

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Sat 18 Jan 2020 23:05

Electric Cars, future ?? - Andrew-T

Will you have to have a separate meter or will your smart meter know what is gobbling up the juice and change the rate. How would it tell if you are using your domestic at the same time?

And then there are those of us who have solar generation. We would have to be careful to charge our EVs while the sun shines ....

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Sun 19 Jan 2020 08:28

Electric Cars, future ?? - madf

Will you have to have a separate meter or will your smart meter know what is gobbling up the juice and change the rate. How would it tell if you are using your domestic at the same time?

And then there are those of us who have solar generation. We would have to be careful to charge our EVs while the sun shines ....

Which means very infrequently if our current weather since September is any guide...

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Sat 18 Jan 2020 23:49

Electric Cars, future ?? - alan1302

People I have spoken to that want an EV are expecting free or very cheap electric for life, due to the price of the cars, they aint gonna get it but thats what they hope will happen.

Some people are just stupid if they think that.

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Sun 19 Jan 2020 09:49

Electric Cars, future ?? - Andrew-T

People I have spoken to that want an EV are expecting free or very cheap electric for life, due to the price of the cars, they aint gonna get it but thats what they hope will happen.

Some people are just stupid if they think that.

Looks like we may have found a successor for the missing Skidpan ? :-)

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