Batteries are usually leased - you pa a monthly charge. But if it fails, It is replaced. FOC I believe
If you own the batteries, no lease to pay but £4 to £5k for a new one.
Beware of this : price comparisons get screwed if you compare leased with purchased battery cars. ENSURE you know...Second hand prices are skewed because of it..
I understand battery life is not very great - if true I wouuld not buy a battery but lease...
Are the EV batteries leased on all EV cars? I relaise some are, but I didn't think they all were. Hybrid cars aren't, even PHEVs, and their battery packs still cost a lot to replace. I made my comment before as I saw on a video on YT from John Cadogan regarding EV/hybrid battery replacement how much of a rip off it was - maybe it was just concerning hybrids rather than EVs, maybe leasing in only in Europe.
Leasing I suppose would (if kept at the same rate or at most uprated by inflation only) help owners in later years of ownership (especially if they bought second hand), but still that must amount to a considerable figure, given the cost of the batteries themselves, never mind the fitting costs.
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What cost saving when the govt of the day impose fuel duty replacement taxes on electricity for EV's.
There's good reason 'smart meters' are being more aggressively pushed, how long before it will be threats to comply, then compulsory.
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What cost saving when the govt of the day impose fuel duty replacement taxes on electricity for EV's.
There's good reason 'smart meters' are being more aggressively pushed, how long before it will be threats to comply, then compulsory.
Never mind GB by then my calculator says I can Push off to a tax friendlier abode..
2 years 6 months and counting down..
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BBC TV News yesterday ran a piece on the growing demand for the raw materials needed for all these batteries. They focused on cobalt which is apparently in plentiful supply deep on the ocean floor. Trouble is getting it to the surface without destroying the sea bed.
We are well on our way to destroying the surface of our planet and now we're heading for the one bit we have so far left unspoilt. It winds me up that EVs are portrayed as "green" when they still take as much energy and raw materials as an IC car to manufacture and still pollute with brake dust and tyre wear etc.
Edited by Chris M on 14/11/2019 at 08:59
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We are well on our way to destroying the surface of our planet and now we're heading for the one bit we have so far left unspoilt.
Those industrial-scale bottom trawlers are doing what they can. And there is a fair number of wrecked ships lying about in some parts.
Edited by Andrew-T on 14/11/2019 at 09:26
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BBC TV News yesterday ran a piece on the growing demand for the raw materials needed for all these batteries. They focused on cobalt which is apparently in plentiful supply deep on the ocean floor. Trouble is getting it to the surface without destroying the sea bed.
We are well on our way to destroying the surface of our planet and now we're heading for the one bit we have so far left unspoilt. It winds me up that EVs are portrayed as "green" when they still take as much energy and raw materials as an IC car to manufacture and still pollute with brake dust and tyre wear etc.
They are 'greener' than petrol/diesel cars - and fuel can be zero emission...so don't get wond up.
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Plenty of YouTube channels dedicated to this car, watch some of them and ask in the comments section.
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"They are 'greener' than petrol/diesel cars - and fuel can be zero emission..."
Are they? Serious question. As they drive along yes, but what about the whole life cost?
My guess is that the batteries are far from good for the environment, not just from what it takes to manufacture them, but what's going to happen when they are no longer able to hold a charge? Will they be recycled effectively or dumped somewhere out of sight in the third world just like some of our current recycled waste.
If the batteries last say 10 years, the car will end up being scrapped. An IC car will still be running for some time after.
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"They are 'greener' than petrol/diesel cars - and fuel can be zero emission..."
Are they? Serious question. As they drive along yes, but what about the whole life cost?
I have certainly read articles that say over their whole life they are already greener than I/C cars, and as technology advances, they will only get more so. Sadly, due to lack of storage space, i tend to bin (recycle!) magazines i have read pretty quickly, so i can't tell you exactly what magazine it was. Bear in mind that the batteries, once they are too far gone to power a car, can and are used for other less demanding needs. Also, a good portion of the battery for an electric car can, in itself, be recycled.
If the batteries last say 10 years, the car will end up being scrapped. An IC car will still be running for some time after.
Not neccessarily, with the way modern cars are being designed as 'throw away' items, and with most manufacturers not having a vested interest in keeping them on the road long term in order to get customers into new models. The combination of that along with all this new technology (which will all have a limited time before becoming obsolete) means that cars made within the last decade or so, by and large, going to be less viable at 10 years plus than those made in the previous 2 decades.
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If the batteries last say 10 years, the car will end up being scrapped. An IC car will still be running for some time after.
Not neccessarily, with the way modern cars are being designed as 'throw away' items, and with most manufacturers not having a vested interest in keeping them on the road long term in order to get customers into new models. The combination of that along with all this new technology (which will all have a limited time before becoming obsolete) means that cars made within the last decade or so, by and large, going to be less viable at 10 years plus than those made in the previous 2 decades.
Bear in mind that other than the electric motor and batteries, an EV is essentially identical to an ICE car, which means it'll suffer exactly the same (or worse, given they are heavier [suspension]) age-realted failures and corrosion over time.
On modern ICE cars, the engine is normally the bit that lasts the longest for 'standard' cars, as long as they are looked after. Admitedly new tech like dual clutch tranmissions have been a weak spot, hence why most people now say stick to manuals or proven auto tech.
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<< On modern ICE cars, >>
We are becoming over-acronymised (to invent an ugly word). Here it is easy to decide between the internal combustion engine and in-car entertainment, but perhaps the Twitter habit may be taking hold? (146 characters or whatever it is ....)
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<< On modern ICE cars, >>
We are becoming over-acronymised (to invent an ugly word). Here it is easy to decide between the internal combustion engine and in-car entertainment, but perhaps the Twitter habit may be taking hold? (146 characters or whatever it is ....)
We could always refer to in-car entertainment as 'the stereo' as we always used to. Having to type 'internal combustion engine' three or four times in a post (yes, copy 'n' paste the other three) just takes longer. Beside, we know the difference in context when the acronymn is used for each reason. That first term is something our American friends would probably use. :-)
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Are they? Serious question. As they drive along yes, but what about the whole life cost?
Yes, they are better - plenty of research has been done on it and shows electric cars are better over the life of the vehicle and a lot of the battery parts can be recycled as well.
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Are they? Serious question. As they drive along yes, but what about the whole life cost?
Yes, they are better - plenty of research has been done on it and shows electric cars are better over the life of the vehicle and a lot of the battery parts can be recycled as well.
Not necessarily - it depends upon the mix of electricity production that goes into recharging the batteries over its lifetime, and battery components are very energy/labour intensive to recycle. It also depends upon the car's usage (of both types), both in terms of raw mileage and the mix of urban and non-urban driving, because it significantly affects the efficiency and pollutant levels of the ICE cars.
The financial cost takes a LONG time to recoup, and currently is a lot less than it should be because of subsidies for both EVs AND 'greener' forms of energy production, which means you pay for it (admitedly shared between all of us taxpayers) through general taxation. This means that EVs bought mainly by the more affluent are being subsidised by everyone, the poor included.
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Are they? Serious question. As they drive along yes, but what about the whole life cost?
Yes, they are better - plenty of research has been done on it and shows electric cars are better over the life of the vehicle and a lot of the battery parts can be recycled as well.
Not necessarily - it depends upon the mix of electricity production that goes into recharging the batteries over its lifetime, and battery components are very energy/labour intensive to recycle. It also depends upon the car's usage (of both types), both in terms of raw mileage and the mix of urban and non-urban driving, because it significantly affects the efficiency and pollutant levels of the ICE cars.
The financial cost takes a LONG time to recoup, and currently is a lot less than it should be because of subsidies for both EVs AND 'greener' forms of energy production, which means you pay for it (admitedly shared between all of us taxpayers) through general taxation. This means that EVs bought mainly by the more affluent are being subsidised by everyone, the poor included.
The electric car is better from an environmental point of view - no matter what:
https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4687
I you buy a Nissan Leaf for £25k or a petrol car for £25k the Nissan Leaf will have lower costs.
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Looking to the future when some early electric cars are entering the 'old banger' stage when they're 10 -12 years old - even if their batteries have lost a third of their range or even half, they'll still be useful as cheap runabouts. I also expect that in due course cheaper after-market replacement batteries will become available for old electric cars - perhaps with less range than the original but ideal for budget motoring of the future.
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Are they? Serious question. As they drive along yes, but what about the whole life cost?
Yes, they are better - plenty of research has been done on it and shows electric cars are better over the life of the vehicle and a lot of the battery parts can be recycled as well.
Not necessarily - it depends upon the mix of electricity production that goes into recharging the batteries over its lifetime, and battery components are very energy/labour intensive to recycle. It also depends upon the car's usage (of both types), both in terms of raw mileage and the mix of urban and non-urban driving, because it significantly affects the efficiency and pollutant levels of the ICE cars.
The financial cost takes a LONG time to recoup, and currently is a lot less than it should be because of subsidies for both EVs AND 'greener' forms of energy production, which means you pay for it (admitedly shared between all of us taxpayers) through general taxation. This means that EVs bought mainly by the more affluent are being subsidised by everyone, the poor included.
The electric car is better from an environmental point of view - no matter what:
https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4687
I you buy a Nissan Leaf for £25k or a petrol car for £25k the Nissan Leaf will have lower costs.
£25k gets you a LOT of ICE car. I could pick up a similar sized new car for £16k. That means I'd have to save £9k more on electricity and servicing of the EV (yes, it does need it and does have wear and tear items, including suspension, brakes, electronics, wipers, etc) than on servicing and fuel for the ICE car. That's also assuming the battery on the EV doesn't go pop and you have to shell out £0000s outside of its warranty or have to spend £00+ per month on rental of the batteries.
The cost of 'fuel' is lower, sure, but over its ownership period if that's up to 10 years, or more? Besides, as I said, EVs are still subsidised. And don't forget the capital and maintenance cost of setting up a home charger and taxation for public ones (more subsidies).
And that 'report' (I would never believe just one report, especially not a worldwide peer-reviewed one) cannot say 100% how the electricity is produced, what happens if its all from coal? Not saying it would be, but it varies from country to country and electricity supplier to supplier in the UK. And, as I said before, 'green electricity production is ALSO heavily subsidised by us taxpayers.
And what happens if the sun isn't shining or the wind is blowing, say, in winter at 9pm? No green electricity available, all fossil fuels or nuclear (which many greenies don't consider to be environmentally friendly, although I think its fine, done properly/safely).
Besides, my current car (bigger than the Leaf) costs me way less than £1k pa as I do low mileage. If I did 25k miles (and a lot of town driving) pa, then perhaps I'd consider a hybrid.
Edited by Engineer Andy on 15/11/2019 at 20:37
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"a lot of the battery parts can be recycled as well."
Can or will?
A lot of the household plastics we get at present can be recycled but they aren't because it's either too expensive or there isn't a market for the recycled material. Our legislators only look as far forward as the next election and the manufacturers will only do enough to meet regulations. I wish I could believe there won't be a pile of battery nasties somewhere which nobody wants in years to come.
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A lot of the household plastics we get at present can be recycled but they aren't because it's either too expensive or there isn't a market for the recycled material.
The main reason for that is because it isn't really viable to recycle very small items, as the energy needed to do so would far outweigh the 'greenness' of recycling, so not really comparable.
Here is a link to a page on the 'how stuff works' website answering the question on whether or not EV batteries can be recycled,
auto.howstuffworks.com/can-electric-car-batteries-...m
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Do people think electricity charges for EV are going to stay at current (hoho) levels once enough people have made the swap?
The political parties are promising (politicians promises but people insist on trusting them still, amazing) more freebies from the Croydon money trees, surely even the most blinkered can see that when enough fuel and VED duty is lost due to EVs that a whole new taxing system will be put in place...the pieces are being moved into place, be simple to tax public charging points and arguably simpler to read your home smart meter.
Just don't be tempted purely on the present cost of charging, unless you can quite reasonably find a bargain and take advantage of present power that doesn't have a fuel duty tax imposed, i'd be wary of long term changeover paying out tens of thousands of pounds just yet.
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Exactly. Remember the last time politicians persuaded motorists to change their buying habits - to dump perfectly good petrol-engined cars for diesels, whatever the usage pattern, 'to save the planet'? How well did that turn out?
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I want to save the planet as much as anyone.
I walk 25 miles a week and drive a 7 year old car which I intend to keep for at least another 10 years..
Buying new cars fules destroying the planet...
There is a new plant in Belgium (?) starting to recycle Li-ion batteries... Very high tech...
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There is a new plant in Belgium (?) starting to recycle Li-ion batteries... Very high tech...
Fortum in Finland?
www.fortum.com/products-and-services/fortum-batter...g
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Do people think electricity charges for EV are going to stay at current (hoho) levels once enough people have made the swap?
The political parties are promising (politicians promises but people insist on trusting them still, amazing) more freebies from the Croydon money trees, surely even the most blinkered can see that when enough fuel and VED duty is lost due to EVs that a whole new taxing system will be put in place...the pieces are being moved into place, be simple to tax public charging points and arguably simpler to read your home smart meter.
Just don't be tempted purely on the present cost of charging, unless you can quite reasonably find a bargain and take advantage of present power that doesn't have a fuel duty tax imposed, i'd be wary of long term changeover paying out tens of thousands of pounds just yet.
Will electricity stay at the current levels for charging - no, probably not.
Tax often changes how it's collected - it's likely to need to in the future.
If they taxed via the smart meters why would that be bad? Those that use most pay most...surely fairest?
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EVs only seem to make any real sense today if::
- you are able to easily recharge - either on your own drive or at work. You will need a charging point - existing cabling needs to have spare capacity.
- you do short journeys around town and have a second conventionally fuelled car for longer trips where recharging infrastructures cannot be relied upon
- you do a very high mileage locally where the savings in fuel costs outweigh the higher capital costs - eg: local taxi or deliveries
- the green imperative dominates any financial consequences
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Will electricity stay at the current levels for charging - no, probably not.
Tax often changes how it's collected - it's likely to need to in the future.
If they taxed via the smart meters why would that be bad? Those that use most pay most...surely fairest?
None of which i have a problem with as you can easily see from my words, so many posts on here from those eager to take up EV are doing so on the sole basis of cheaper running costs, the environmental arguments for and against will go on for years like supposed man made climate change, another lucrative industry.
I don't blame anyone if they can take advantage of this cheap fuel honeymoon period, especially if they can find a bargain and not pay out supercar money for a nothing special battery car, but we can see people are not thinking things through fully and planning their motoring future on electricity for travel staying cheap so comparing apples with oranges, we know cheap won't be the case once enough have taken the bait.
I just wish people would see past the gushing so good for you propaganda for things like smart meters, and just ask themselves why are these things being pushed so hard whilst keeping in mind that most important of facts, the state is not your friend.
Edited by gordonbennet on 17/11/2019 at 07:56
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If the batteries last say 10 years, the car will end up being scrapped. An IC car will still be running for some time after.
The average age of scrapping an IC car is 13 years so, in practice, most won't.
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