Ford Puma - Car insurance claim advice please

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Mon 22 Apr 2019 11:26
Ford Puma - Car insurance claim advice please - Panikos

I would be grateful for some advice please.

I drive an 18 year old Ford Puma. It is my only car and has a lot of sentimental value to me.

I was involved in a accident in October and the bonnet has been dented, the bumper has a crack and one of the lights has a crack.

I phoned my insurer and as soon as I mentioned the crash, they told me it was a write off (I thought that was strange without looking at the car). They sent me a link to send pictures and then wait for a price.

2 days later, I was offered £520, which I refused straight away. Another 2 days later, I received a call from an agent who offered £760. I still feel that is low for a car in excellent condition and only 100,000 on the clock. I asked about buying back the car and they said I could buy it for 10% but then said no, it's a Cat B. I told them there is no way the car is a Cat B and asked for someone to at least look at the car.

They phoned back the next day and said they refused to send someone to look at the car but will pay for the repair it it's under the car value. But they also told me I can't drive the car so how do I get quotes?

When I asked what happens if the repair cost is higher than £740, they said it will be written off as a CAT B. Surely if the car costs more to fix, that's a CAT C! They also gave me the option of cancelling the claim.

I complained and when they agreed on the price and CAT B, saying it would cost over £5000 to repair the vehicle.

Therefore, I complained to the Ombudsman for the following reasons:

1. The value of £760

2. The category is incorrect. The fact that the car can be fixed means it is NOT a cat B. I asked them to pay me the value they felt it was worth and allow me to buy back the car so I can fix it myself.

3. The accident occurred 1 week before my insurance was due to renew. When I asked about renewing, they told me the insurance would end due to the claim. I found out a few weeks later that they renewed the policy and I'm paying for a car I cannot use.

Nearly 4.5 later, the Ombudsman has rejected my complaint. They agreed on the value, dismissed my estimates due to not having a proper breakdown, agreed on the category and agreed that my car needs to be scrapped. They didn't even respond to question about the insurance being extended when they told me it wouldn't.

Is it worth me taking this to court? I know it seems petty but I feel I am not being treated fairly and would appreciate some advice.

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Mon 22 Apr 2019 11:54
Ford Puma - Car insurance claim advice please - Bromptonaut

My short answer is that I think court would be a risky prospect.

The reference to Cat C is confusing as I believe the current term for a vehicle that has structural damage and will cost more to repair than it is worth is Cat S with Cat N (was D) being cosmetic only damage but repair greater than value.

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/know-how/what-is-an-insurance-write-off/

Where does the £5k repair cost come from and did you have an Engineer's report for the Ombudsman.?

Would it be possible to post the wording of the Ombudsman's decision or a link to a redacted version?

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Mon 22 Apr 2019 12:37
Ford Puma - Car insurance claim advice please - Panikos

Thank you for your reply Bromponaut

My apologies, I should have mentioned Cat S and Cat N. Even IF there is structural damage, surely the fact that they are saying it can be fixed means it can't be a Cat B?

The 5K repair cost is what the insurance company are claiming it would cost to fix the car. At no point have they provided me a copy of the report or even a breakdown of the costs.

I will convert the letter and post details here

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Mon 22 Apr 2019 12:58
Ford Puma - Car insurance claim advice please - Panikos

My findings considered all the available evidence and arguments to decide what's fair and reasonable in the circumstances of this complaint. Having done so, I don't intend to uphold. Mr G has kept possession of his car since the incident. Mr G says he doesn't agree that his car is a Category 'B' write off. Insurance Company has provided a copy of the engineer's report. The engineer carried out his report based on photos provided by Mr G. This doesn't mean that the engineer's report is therefore wrong. It isn't unusual for a review to be carried out this way — if it's clear enough for the engineer to make a decision from the photos.

The engineer's report gave an estimate to repair Mr G's car at £5,146.42. This is a detailed estimate which includes costs for labour, paint, and parts. The estimate that Mr G has provided quotes for a repair to the off side and near side front head lamp and rim, and a paint and repair to the bonnet and catch/lock. It doesn't provide a breakdown of labour or material costs. It provides a total estimate of £760. I understand Mr G disagrees with the engineer's estimate. He says there's no way it would cost anywhere near £5,000 to repair his car. But given the substantive difference between the garage estimate provided by Mr G and the engineer's report - in both the estimated costs and detail — there isn't enough for me to conclude that Insurance Company should remove the category B marker from Mr G's car— and therefore deciding that Mr G's car is repairable to go back on the road for £760. We don't decide a market value. But we look at whether an insurer reached a valuation reasonably and in line with the policy. Mr G's policy with Insurance Company says the most it will pay in the event of a claim is the market value for his car at the time of loss. We find the main motor trade guides are a reliable source as they provide valuations based on likely selling prices. And they can provide valuations for the same make, model, age, condition and mileage. We find they are more reliable than adverts — as adverts tend to be a starting price for the buyer to negotiate the price downward. The final market value Insurance Company paid Mr G was £760. PLEASE NOTE, I HAVE NOT RECEIVED ANY PAYOUT.

Insurance Company agreed it had incorrectly told Mr G it wouldn't accept a quote for repairs using recycled parts. And it said there was a delay in replying to Mr G's correspondence. For this it and paid Mr G £75 compensation. I think this was fair and reasonable. I can see that Mr G asked the engineer on 12 November 2018 if Insurance Company would be prepared to cover repairs for £760 — but he didn't receive a reply until Insurance Company replied to his complaint on 27 November 2018. Insurance Company explained that because Mr G's car has been categorised as 'B' it cannot be returned to the road as it is deemed unsuitable for repair. This means Insurance Company won't deduct a salvage fee from the total loss settlement. If Mr G wants to retain the salvage of his vehicle, he can as he is the owner of the car — even if it's a category B. But it's then the responsibility of Mr G to dispose of it — as it cannot be returned to the road. However, I understand this isn't what Mr G wants. He wants Insurance Company to accept the estimate he's provided to repair his car for £760 and remove the category B marker. THAT IS INCORRECT, I ASKED TO PAY WHAT WAS FAIR, EVEN IF £760 AND ALLOW ME TO FIX THE CAR, REMOVING THE CAT B

But the evidence Mr G has provided isn't enough to persuade me that Insurance Company has unreasonably recorded the categorisation of Mr G's car. Overall I think Insurance Company has acted reasonably. It's offered to settle Mr G's claim in line with the policy by providing a total loss settlement minus the excess. I realise Mr G will be disappointed, but this means I'm not upholding his complaint.

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Mon 22 Apr 2019 14:33
Ford Puma - Car insurance claim advice please - Bromptonaut

If the insurer provided a report to the Ombudsman I'm surprised they've not disclosed it to you. Have you asked insurer or Ombo for a copy?

The crux here seems to be whether it's Cat B rather than S or even N. What specific damage does the insurance company say renders it B?

Quite few threads on this over on Money Saving Expert or Pistonheads. Conclusion seems to be that DVLA will now prevent Cat B's going back on the road.

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Mon 22 Apr 2019 14:56
Ford Puma - Car insurance claim advice please - Panikos

Thanks Bromponaut, I will request a copy of the report.

They say it's a Cat B but haven't told me why. They are basing this on a few pictures, and all it shows is a dented bonnet, cracked light and a crack on the bumper.

My confusion is that they are saying it will cost £5000 to fix, but doesn't the fact it CAN be fixed prove it can't be a Cat B?

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Mon 22 Apr 2019 15:34
Ford Puma - Car insurance claim advice please - sammy1

Your mistake was going to the insurance in the first place. You must be aware that your can only be worth £1k at most. Your first posting describes very little damage and a bonnet headlight and bumper as stand alone damage would not class the car as cat B. A proper insurance repair could easily exceed the cars value for these items labour and paint. Unless the insurance assessor physically inspected your car I do not see how they would say it cannot be put back on the road. As I understand it there must be some serious structural damage to be cat B. If you put it all down to experience you can buy a tidy little run around for your pay out with a years MOT

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Mon 22 Apr 2019 22:50
Ford Puma - Car insurance claim advice please - KJP 123

Hi Panikos

I think that this is worth wider discussion: I do think that you have been badly treated, up to a point.

With an 18 year old car any damage is likely to be a write off. There are a number of Pumas on Autotrader for <£1,000 so that it was not unreasonable to initially treat it as a write off. Nor was it to not to send out an engineer at this level. The problem is that they have made it Cat B.

I don’t think that there is a Cat C any more but the current categories seem too wide.

As Bromptonaut said, “court would be a risky prospect” because they have offered you a fair price. What they have not done is allowed you to repair the car by making it Cat B. That seems unreasonable.

Sammy1 says, “Your mistake was going to the insurance in the first place”. No, I guess you ran into someone but you should report it.

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Tue 23 Apr 2019 09:31
Ford Puma - Car insurance claim advice please - Bromptonaut

I agree with KJP's analysis. The sum offered is not unreasonable, the issue is the Cat B marker.

OP may need whoever provided the estimate seen by the Ombo to expand on the detail of exact level of damage and to include an opinion on whether any of it is safety critical and whether there might be other reasons, for example structural corrosion, that would mean a repaired vehicle was still unsafe. It would be sensible to ask for that opinion in light of insurer's report which was before the Ombo. As above OP needs to get a copy of this.

With hindsight OP may not have been as well prepared for Ombo as he could have been, ie the opinion I'm suggesting above should have been obtained earlier and seen by the Ombo. His/her adjudication seems to imply that the detailed report from insurer was not adequately countered by the documentation provided by the OP and that was key to his/her decision.

Danger now is that further attempts to contest the Cat B will be stonewalled by the insurer saying in effect 'res judicata' (the matter that has been adjudicated by a competent adjudicator and therefore may not be pursued further).

Not sure what OP's options are at that point. A good start would be to approach the insurer in a non combative tone, accepting the valuation but 'humbly requesting' that the Cat be reviewed or at least the feature of the car the justifies a B being clearly explained.

Edited by Bromptonaut on 23/04/2019 at 09:34

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Tue 23 Apr 2019 12:41
Ford Puma - Car insurance claim advice please - galileo

Adhering to the forum's policy regarding "naming and shaming", can the OP at least tell us the premium he paid for his insurance (and excess) and if the insurer is a major company or a discounter?

How they can decide repair cost is £5000 (and it is cat B) when their only assessment is based on emailed photographs is a mystery.

Structural corrosion might be suspected on a car of this age but easily confirmed by inspection, and a recent MOT should have spotted this if serious.

I suspect that having made a dubious decision the insurer will not want to lose face by changing their position. Not sure how qualified the Ombudsman is in vehicle repairs, either.

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Tue 23 Apr 2019 21:16
Ford Puma - Car insurance claim advice please - Panikos

Many thanks everyone for all the advice.

In answer to questions, I bought insurance with a major insurer (Defaqto 5 Star rated for last 7 years), even though the insurance seems to be with a Gibralter based company owned by their parent company. I paid around £28o for fully comp insurance (11 years no claims). The accident occured a week before renewal and I was told the insurance would stop due to the claim. However, they renewed without my knowledge for £327 a week later. I have the "Premier" version of the insurance with £100 excess.

I actually told the investigator that even if the value is kept at £760, I would accept that. I just wanted the category changed so I can actually fix my car as there was great sentimental value for my one and only car. I should mention that when I complained to the insurance company before I went to the Ombudsman, they awarded me £75 for the poor service I received but wouldn't change the amount or category. I don't know what this report contains but it seems everyone trusts the report from a few pictures! My quote wasn't informative enough but a report from a few pictures is fine?

It seems the insurance decided it was a cat B and they don't want to change their mind. I find it quite strange that the salvage company wrote me 7 letters and made at least 8 phone calls asking to pick up my vehicle, even though I kept telling them I was disputing the claim.

In hindsight, I should have been better prepared but was going through personal issues that were taking up most of my time. I also wasn't sure I was going to claim but the other driver said to me "I hope my hip is ok" so I decided to let the insurance deal with everything. I'm pretty sure the driver slammed on his brakes to cause an accident but I can't prove that without a dashcam...

I don't really know what to do next. I don't know if I want the stress of a court case. I also feel that the ombudsman had very little knowledge of insurance claims and just agreed with the insurance company.

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Wed 24 Apr 2019 00:15
Ford Puma - Car insurance claim advice please - KJP 123

Hi Panikos,

I don’t think that a court case will get you anywhere after the ombudsman has agreed with the insurance company, even if incorrectly.

But who actually writes off vehicles? Financially, the insurance company but a written off vehicle “repaired to a roadworthy condition” can be returned to the road. So that would be the DVLA and presumably after inspection by the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency (DVSA), previously the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency (VOSA). An inspection would, I think, be £450/600.

But the problem is the category. The Govt. website is not very explicit but Cat A and B are the worst.

Cat A, the whole car has to be crushed; Cat B the same but you can salvage parts.

Cat C car “ can be repaired, but it would cost more than the vehicle’s worth”; that would seem to be where your should have been put. Cat D is much the same but includes other costs like transport.

Cat N and Cat S are repairable cars following non-structural and structural damage respectively that can be “repaired to a roadworthy condition” and can be returned to the road.

Cat A and B is for the massively damaged cars and yours is not. But I am not sure how far the DVLA/DVSA would even consider a a Cat B.

If you cannot get it down to a Cat C, where it seems to belong, I cannot see you getting anywhere, however unfair.

Your one point of argument may be that their “engineer” did say that it was repairable even at an inflated cost which makes it Cat C.

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Thu 25 Apr 2019 13:09
Ford Puma - Car insurance claim advice please - dieselnut

Why not contact the Ombudsman & ask what evidence would be required to overturn the Cat B decision by the insurance Co.

Also reiterate that no one has actually looked at the damage.

I suspect they would require an engineers report which will cost you £2 - £300, or possibly more.

If the category is overturned I would expect the Insurance Co to have to pick up this bill, but it is a risk that the engineer agrees with the Ins Co.

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Thu 25 Apr 2019 19:22
Ford Puma - Car insurance claim advice please - Avant
I can’t help feeling that the best bet might be to take the money and - if the Puma was special to you - try to find another one. Rarity is making these an appreciating asset, so if you get in quickly you could gain in the medium term.
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Thu 25 Apr 2019 21:25
Ford Puma - Car insurance claim advice please - nick62

Clean one here if you have a spare £5K odd:

tinyurl.com/yxz89u3d

I guess it may have been for sale for a while as it's only done 116 miles in the last 2 years?

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