Some more information on the situation on these cars in the state of Arizona.
It sounds like the state has become a regulation free zone for autonomous cars.
www.nytimes.com/2017/11/11/technology/arizona-tech...s
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No consolation for the familiy but worth noting that over 30000 road fatalities pa in the US.
Unlike most serious acidents there should be a wealth of data to understand precisely what happened from on board systems. This should not be a reason for the luddites to try and derail driverless transport it is not a case of if, but when!
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Hope the progressives won't mind a few lorry platoons going off route with predictable results then, wreaking utter carnage on an industrial scale, hopefully a few hundred (ordinary citizens) killed won't make any difference either.
Us Luddites are not so sure these utopian dreams will prove to be anything but a living nightmare.
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Us Luddites are not so sure these utopian dreams will prove to be anything but a living nightmare.
I'm in no hurry to see driverless cars, but compare with trains - they don't stop for jaywalkers.
We might well end up with transport on the roads that we just have to learn to keep out of the way of, as we do with trains. Physically separated lorry lanes on motorways?
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<< I'm in no hurry to see driverless cars, but compare with trains - they don't stop for jaywalkers. >>
I assume that remark is made tongue-in-cheek. A train cannot be steered off its line of travel even if the driver wanted - and any 'road users' (there shouldn't be any in this country) can always anticipate what a train will do. They take a lot longer to stop as well ....
Edited by Andrew-T on 20/03/2018 at 09:29
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We might well end up with transport on the roads that we just have to learn to keep out of the way of, as we do with trains. Physically separated lorry lanes on motorways?
An interesting idea, how it would work in practice i don't quite know, maybe there could be a fenced off road that other vehicles cannot access, maybe with some guide rails for the wheels to run on, and one or several linked very powerful tractive lorry(s) could pull a batch of say 30/50 trailers along...oh wait..:-)
No i'm only pulling your leg MT, we should have had an intergrated planned transport system where road and rail worked hand in hand years ago (Freightliner principle), unfortunately our leaders are only in it for themselves their trouser pockets and their glory, few think of the genuine long term good of the nation, some of those that have done so have been hounded out of office over various things only to be proved right in the long term.
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Unlike most serious acidents there should be a wealth of data to understand precisely what happened from on board systems.
Its always possible the on board systems had no idea a person was there, these systems are not perfect and never will be, unless the person walked out into the car (no one knows yet) so it couldnt react in time, or the person was invisible to the sensors?
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Unlike most serious acidents there should be a wealth of data to understand precisely what happened from on board systems.
When they do find out the reason for the fatality then they should be able to modify the software to make sure that fault never happens again. That is where the autonomous vehicle is better than the human driver. We can improve the software but cannot improve human drivers. We all know that there are a great many human drivers out there who could do with a software upgrade!
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When they do find out the reason for the fatality then they should be able to modify the software to make sure that fault never happens again. That is where the autonomous vehicle is better than the human driver. We can improve the software but cannot improve human drivers. We all know that there are a great many human drivers out there who could do with a software upgrade!
Where there is a driver in control of a vehicle you have someone that is responsible.
The thorny issue of responsibility, so far, always rests with the driver, if you have automated braking or steering (as appears to be fitted to cars now, not mine matey) that interferes and causes an accident instead of preventing one, the driver is still responsible...oh and if you drive a lorry and after experiencing false harsh braking for no reason and turn the systems off you will be disciplined harshly and more than likely sacked.
The legalities of all of this need sorting soonest.
Why are you sure the robotised vehicle will be better?, the autonomous vehicle will never be able to monitor assimilate and react to visual aural and seat of pants feel the huge amount of information that the good human driver does, and gradually removing driving skills from drivers of all sorts of vehicles as is now underway is lowering the driving skill level at an alarming rate as it is...ie we have people behind the wheel who cannot perform a hill start, let alone actually control a vehicle on a slippery road without the electronics.
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When they do find out the reason for the fatality then they should be able to modify the software to make sure that fault never happens again. That is where the autonomous vehicle is better than the human driver. We can improve the software but cannot improve human drivers. We all know that there are a great many human drivers out there who could do with a software upgrade!
Where there is a driver in control of a vehicle you have someone that is responsible.
The thorny issue of responsibility, so far, always rests with the driver, if you have automated braking or steering (as appears to be fitted to cars now, not mine matey) that interferes and causes an accident instead of preventing one, the driver is still responsible...oh and if you drive a lorry and after experiencing false harsh braking for no reason and turn the systems off you will be disciplined harshly and more than likely sacked.
The legalities of all of this need sorting soonest.
Why are you sure the robotised vehicle will be better?, the autonomous vehicle will never be able to monitor assimilate and react to visual aural and seat of pants feel the huge amount of information that the good human driver does, and gradually removing driving skills from drivers of all sorts of vehicles as is now underway is lowering the driving skill level at an alarming rate as it is...ie we have people behind the wheel who cannot perform a hill start, let alone actually control a vehicle on a slippery road without the electronics.
I`m not so sure legaly blame can be put on anyone, or an item, as components have a habit of failing that no company/person has control over
it`s odd now when talking to people years ago about autonomy, people used to be worried about what happens to those made redundant by these motors, talking to people now, do not seem to care who is left out of work by these motors
Computers as we know can have software tweeked but I still think they are way off yet and there will be scenarios that a software upgrade will not take into account, there are also times when a camera/sensors can see things that do not exist and not see things that are there, try compensating for that!
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Even when they make mistakes, they will be better than people in terms of net casualties. That's the case for them.
But I don't think they are there yet. Certainly not in terms of being able to have traffic mixed with human-operated vehicles.
Edited by Manatee on 20/03/2018 at 09:02
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.. but cannot improve human drivers....
I disagree. We could bring in mandatory top-up training every few years. It has always seemed daft to me that we do not.
How crazy that I can pass my test at 17 and never have to do another day of training, ever. And I only give up driving when I self-declare that I'm past it?
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A few years ago, graduated driving licences were proposed to the UK government of the day by a highly qualified driver educator, degree level education, ex traffic police, DVLA instructor, ROSPA and AIM examiner - you are unlikely to find a man with better qualifications to teach and assess driving.
He put together a detailed, sensible workable plan for the UK government to introduce graduated driver licencing, the current driving test was only the entry qualification, further training, experience and assessment would eventually lead up to full licence qualification.
It was rejected out of hand by the then conservative government - "it's a vote loser" was the comment.
There you have it in a nutshell.
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This should not be a reason for the luddites to try and derail driverless transport it is not a case of if, but when!
... not a case of if, or when, but why? A 'perfect' driverless car depends on software designers having dreamt up every possible scenario the vehicle may need to respond to. I suggest that is a very tall order. The Uber accident had a human on board as well - what was he/she doing?
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This should not be a reason for the luddites to try and derail driverless transport it is not a case of if, but when!
... not a case of if, or when, but why? A 'perfect' driverless car depends on software designers having dreamt up every possible scenario the vehicle may need to respond to. I suggest that is a very tall order. The Uber accident had a human on board as well - what was he/she doing?
won`t matter what they were doing, as the cars system possibly(not known yet) did not see the pedestrian, the person in it for emergency reasons, would not have been able to react fast enough anyway, so I cannot see the point of having a stand by driver?
and I agree it is a very tall order and has too many scenarios including possible ghosts in the machine
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So someone vegetating behind the wheel for hours on end is supposed to monitor continually (what's the point in the robot at all?), and with no regular or current driving/handling practice, instantly take over make the right decisions in that split second have seat of the pants feel what is happening under the wheels and so put right the mistakes our imperfect robot had already made inevitable.
Well good luck with that, you couldn't pay me enough to be the guinea pig responsible for the machines failures.
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This should not be a reason for the luddites to try and derail driverless transport it is not a case of if, but when!
... not a case of if, or when, but why? A 'perfect' driverless car depends on software designers having dreamt up every possible scenario the vehicle may need to respond to. I suggest that is a very tall order.
In the UK surely it would be particularly difficult given our old and complicated road systems through most villages and towns. If it was to work at all, maybe better in new towns like Milton Keynes.
If there is someone on board, and something goes wrong, how much time do they have to react before they realise? That's one scenario where I would have thought humans were not suitable at all, sitting there with nothing to do and getting bored and tired.
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The objective cannot be the perfect driverless car. It is unachievable. Human drivers are far from perfect, self-driving cars only need to be demonstrably better.
It's not surprising that the human minder failed to catch any error. The error had probably been made by then, instead of being avoided, or ideally of the situation that made the error more likely would have been avoided.
Human minders will in any case lose their driving skills if they cease driving themselves. Not just the vehicle control skils but observation, prediction, reaction, decision-making.
It has happened with aviation. Look up flight AF447 to read about how the pilots flew a perfectly serviceable aircraft into the sea from 30,000 feet when the autopilot disconnected itself (as it was designed to do) when the airpseed indicators briefly iced up. 228 people died. There are other examples. But notwithstanding, flying is still much safer than it was before the current levels of automation were commonplace.
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Bad as humans are we are far more sophisticated than machines at present. When artificial intelligence is perfected that will be the time to make cars driverless.
Do you set the car to brave mode or cautious mode? If the latter it will never pull out into a stream of traffic in this country when you consider how closely cars folow each other!
Of course it will work fine if all of the sensors keep working perfectly and conscientious drivers clean all of the cameras and sensors every day or immediately they or the screen in front of it gets covered in muck.
Can't see it working as things stand but when they perfect a robot that behaves like a human it will be feasible in my view-we just aren't quite there yet.
While we are at it, why not let's all stay in bed all day and let the robots have all the fun?
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