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I will not beat about thye bush, I don't like auto's. If you have 2 legs etc you are better off with a manual every time. They are more economical, better to drive quicker and more reliable even if the manufacturers say other wise.
CVT's are the most hateful all revs and no action.
Torque converter ones are better but still all revs when what you want is acceleration and some take forever to decide which gear to use.
When I tried a DSG I expected better and was disapointed, have tried 3 now. Gets round the revs and no action issues and if you use it in manual mode it gets round the wrong gear issues but parking is an absolute nightmare. Then there is the suspect reliabilty and huge bills.
Most likable (or least despicable) auto I have driven was Dads old Hondamatic from the 80's. OK, it was still a torque converter which mean't you got revs instead of go but at least on this type the driver decided which gear to use instead of the box taking ages to decide which gear was the best and loosing any chance of an overtake.
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I have driven a Honda Jazz CVT since 2012. It has been faultless, gearchanges are imperceptible and if you drive with some sense,you can go quickly without too much noise - but as peak power comes in around 5,000rpm I enjoy booting it at times.
75% of my driving is urban.
An adaptable driver can drive one fast and smothly with far less hassle in modern traffic. Those who decry autos must do little stop/start driving - or are masochists :-)..
In 20 years time there will be no gearchanging. I for one wiill not mourn its passing.
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An adaptable driver can drive one fast and smothly with far less hassle in modern traffic. Those who decry autos must do little stop/start driving - or are masochists :-)..
I do not find driving a manuals a hassle at all in modern traffic especially a modern turbo petrol which has excellent power with no lag all the way from 1500 rpm to the red line (6000 or higher). This results in a 3rd gear that will pull well from 20 mph to over 80 mph which is great for A road overtaking. In town 2nd and 3rd gear are all you need, no hassle there.
I am no masochist, its a simple fact that after 45 years of driving manuals I see no reason to change to something more expensive to buy, slower, less economcal and potentially unreliable.
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In the interests of balance....I'm a big fan of autos..BUT I should qualify that by saying ALL mine have been the "old skool" TC boxes...none of this new fangled stuff.!.lol;
I'd say that 80%+ of my vehicles have been automatic over the last 50 years.!..and I can honestly say I've had no trouble with any of them..not once.!
I don't see they are any more troublesome than a manual clutch.
I've always made sure that the ATF is at the correct level and condition...and I've had many manufacturer's models..Saab, Volvo, Mitsubishi, Toyota, BMW, Ford, Vauxhall, Nissan..and that covers both private buy cars and company cars.
I guess it depends what you want from a car.?..my guilty pleasure now is comfort and ease of driving..and an auto delivers that for me.
Personally I've always found the autos quicker off the mark...no waiting for an rpm motivated clutch dip and gear change..by the time you've done that...I've gone.!!..lol
My current beast I confess is a 3 litre V6..with 4wd (Toyota's active torque control).and gets me off the line very quickly in 4wd when I press the loud pedal..and even though it's 2 tonne of Toyota's finest it still surprises a lot of peeps with it's performance...after all, it's an MPV.!
Personal choice in the end of course...but a TC auto box does it for me.
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I will not beat about thye bush, I don't like auto's. If you have 2 legs etc you are better off with a manual every time. They are more economical, better to drive quicker and more reliable even if the manufacturers say other wise.
CVT's are the most hateful all revs and no action.
Torque converter ones are better but still all revs when what you want is acceleration and some take forever to decide which gear to use.
When I tried a DSG I expected better and was disapointed, have tried 3 now. Gets round the revs and no action issues and if you use it in manual mode it gets round the wrong gear issues but parking is an absolute nightmare. Then there is the suspect reliabilty and huge bills.
Most likable (or least despicable) auto I have driven was Dads old Hondamatic from the 80's. OK, it was still a torque converter which mean't you got revs instead of go but at least on this type the driver decided which gear to use instead of the box taking ages to decide which gear was the best and loosing any chance of an overtake.
Your generalisations for each type of gear box are too general for modern types - it's down to how good, or bad, their ECUs are programmed. The best CVT (Subaru) and best torque converter (Aisin & ZF) are difficult to fault.
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In contrast to skidpan my experience of automatics and CVT’s are different. I have extensive driving experience of both manuals and autos of all types from many years of driving both privately and for business purposes. There’s no doubt that many people don’t like auto boxes and I respect their decisions. However I have found over time that a large proportion of those people simply have not learnt how to drive one effectively. If you try to drive an auto in the same way as you drive a manual then you will not get the best results from it. In my experience you can get an auto to move as quickly as a manual and without the so called screaming engine effect, you just need to learn how to. Most if not all modern autos have a manual and a sport option so that you can have control over the gearbox and sporty acceleration if you want. My last two cars have been CVT’s (Toyota and Suzuki), both have been easy to drive with no DSG type foibles and both economical for the type of car they are fitted to. You don’t need to keep your foot to the floor to get good acceleration as that is not how they work best. If you do that you will often get high engine revs but ease the throttle a little and the gear ratio will increase and acceleration will continue. For town or heavily congested traffic conditions autos are superb and I wouldn’t drive anything else now.
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I'm on my 3rd Honda CRV auto. Not sure what type it is, but on my Mk 4 you never feel a gear change except when I paddle shift down in sport mode and welly it! Even my old Mk 1 CRV with 190,000 on the clock (never a major fault in its whole life!) had a lovely smooth change
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In my experience you can get an auto to move as quickly as a manual and without the so called screaming engine effect, you just need to learn how to
How do you do that then?
With a torque converter the only yay to avoid the revs screaming is to hardly press the throttle pedal which results in no acceleration.
With a CVT the only way to avoid the engine screaming is to hardly press the throttle pedal whicgh results in no acceleration.
At least with a DSG the engine and wheels have a solid link via the double clutch set up but you still get unnessary gearchanges thus increases in revs.
I appreciate that some drivers are so bad with their coordination of accelerator, clutch and gearlever that progress is incredibly jerky and in theory an auto suits these better. But I have been in auto's where the drivers are constantly on and off the throttle making progress unbearable as the car jerks and the revs change constantly. These drivers should honestly revert to the bus and train.
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In my experience you can get an auto to move as quickly as a manual and without the so called screaming engine effect, you just need to learn how to
How do you do that then?
With a torque converter the only yay to avoid the revs screaming is to hardly press the throttle pedal which results in no acceleration.
I suspect we'll never convert you to an auto box, skidpan...lol.
My experience over many years with many TC autoboxes simply doesn't match your comments.
I'd put any auto I've had up against a manual version of the same vehicle..and I'd expect it to perform every bit as good..and probably better.!
...and using kick down is better than manually changing gear IMO.
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In my experience you can get an auto to move as quickly as a manual and without the so called screaming engine effect, you just need to learn how to
How do you do that then?
With a torque converter the only yay to avoid the revs screaming is to hardly press the throttle pedal which results in no acceleration.
With a CVT the only way to avoid the engine screaming is to hardly press the throttle pedal whicgh results in no acceleration.
Four speed autos with low power could certainly be like that - many were really 3 speeders with a long 4th to try and rescue the economy, they would drop into 3rd at the slightest sign of a gradient and hard acceleration would have them screaming in 2nd at 40 or 50 mph. Horrible things.
With adequate torque and 6 or more speeds it isn't really a problem. And many TC autos now will have manual control either via a sequential position for the selector or using 'paddles'.
I much prefer an auto for everyday use. It isn't about lazy driving, in fact I think my driving probably improves in an auto, there's more time to consider road positioning, appropriate speed, plenty to pay attention to for the keen driver.
I still enjoy a manual (such as the MX5 which is just for fun) but facing a long drive just to get somewhere and arrive relaxed, especially if any congestion is involved, I'll take an auto every time. Ideally a TC one. The DSG has always seemed like a fudge to me - they have spent years trying to make them behave like a proper auto but they are still poor for manoeuvring and I won't buy another. CVTs I have little experience of.
Edited by Manatee on 07/03/2018 at 20:27
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In my experience you can get an auto to move as quickly as a manual and without the so called screaming engine effect, you just need to learn how to
How do you do that then?
With a torque converter the only yay to avoid the revs screaming is to hardly press the throttle pedal which results in no acceleration.
Hyundai Santa Fe turbo-diesel - the ECU is clever enough to increase turbo-boost and engine fuelling to get decent acceleration without changing gear, as long as the engine is in it's torque band 1800-2500 rpm - of course if you use wide-open-throttle it'll go into the power band
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See this is the problem.
Everyone has their own perspective on manuals and autos.
My current driving is 45 mins every morning and night of 3 x 5 or 10 minute of start & stop whilst moving about 3 yards a time.
My current manual is not efficient and is knackering my left leg as I am constantly lifting my leg up and down on the clutch pedal.
I need a family car estate or suv or mpv and I 6ft4” so some cars are too small and I only have to spend £20k or less.
I know people that have DSG and DCT boxes and have no problem with jerkyness and the need to have acceleration is akways there.
The web say if you are bumper to bumper traffic then a automatic is best.... so which one.
Also bearing in mind that my mileage is 8-10k a year so on a 5-6 year ownership I’ll only do 60,000 at the max.
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See this is the problem. Everyone has their own perspective on manuals and autos. My current driving is 45 mins every morning and night of 3 x 5 or 10 minute of start & stop whilst moving about 3 yards a time. My current manual is not efficient and is knackering my left leg as I am constantly lifting my leg up and down on the clutch pedal. I need a family car estate or suv or mpv and I 6ft4” so some cars are too small and I only have to spend £20k or less. I know people that have DSG and DCT boxes and have no problem with jerkyness and the need to have acceleration is akways there. The web say if you are bumper to bumper traffic then a automatic is best.... so which one. Also bearing in mind that my mileage is 8-10k a year so on a 5-6 year ownership I’ll only do 60,000 at the max.
I think you need to get lots of test drives - form your own conclusions.
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With your budget and vehicle type required then I would suggest you look at a used Toyota Avensis or Auris, maybe a Hybrid for the latter. If the design suits you then even a Prius may be an option. An alternative would be a Suzuki S-Cross or Vitara, depending on trim choice you could even get a new one of these for your budget. I have found that both Toyota and Suzuki main dealers are most accommodating so try and get a long test drive of all variants. It seems, as you have suggested, that the CVT type auto would suit your needs but would suggest avoiding the Nissan variety as reports are not that good. Only a brief search of this and other forums will show that a DSG box, especially second hand, could be a bit risky. You can ask as many questions and get all the responses you like but until you try one you won’t know whether an auto box will suit you or whether you can make that small adjustment of driving style needed to make the most of it.
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My current driving is 45 mins every morning and night of 3 x 5 or 10 minute of start & stop whilst moving about 3 yards a time. My current manual is not efficient and is knackering my left leg....
Don't even think about a manual!
I know people that have DSG and DCT boxes and have no problem with jerkyness and the need to have acceleration is akways there. The web say if you are bumper to bumper traffic then a automatic is best.... so which one. Also bearing in mind that my mileage is 8-10k a year so on a 5-6 year ownership I’ll only do 60,000 at the max.
If you are buying new, whichever you like. These days all will almost certainly last well over 60k.
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I'm 6'1 and have oodles of space in my Hybrid Rav4. Really smooth in traffic and manouvering. I've had 50mpg from it. It'll do 0 - 60 in 8.4 sec if needed. The Business Edition Plus has masses of kit. Look at this example, which with a bit of haggling you might be able to get closer to your £20k target.
www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/20180213369...1
Or this one which is well within your budget.
www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/20180215376...1
Edited by masiv on 09/03/2018 at 17:43
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I have a Toyota RAV4 with 2.0 valve magic petrol engine and cvt auto.
Lots of space inside. Quiet, smooth, plenty of power.
Totally reliable, of course.
Highly recommended: sounds like it would work for you
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“I read that CVTs are the best for my driving, so with my budget and car type it’s a Toyota, Honda or Nissan. Then some CVTs are better than others..... “ I’d push the Nissan off that list, it’s nothing more than a rebadged Renault these days. Plenty of woe in store as it ages. Toyota CVT’s are capable of huge mileages with little fear. Honda has had bother with them in earlier examples of the Jazz and have only recently introduced them on the Civic but I’m confident they’ll be fine. In this economy and emissions focused car market autos are a challenge. Using a traditional torque converter box harms both but is generally very robust but automated manuals are complex and troublesome. I’d agree that CVT is the safe middle ground but they don’t suit enthusiastic driving. Mazda use a lightweight torque converter box that is very good and should be reliable but it’s not as efficient as a CVT. Manual is usually less of a hassle and on small to medium sized cars it’s more popular used and thus easier to sell on again. Test drive a few to see how you feel but you’ll be safe enough with a Toyota CVT, with the Hybrid Powertrain particularly well proven as taxis across the globe. I’m considering a used Auris Hybrid Estate as a replacement for our CRV later in the year.
Its a real shame for the OP that the Mazda5 or 6 Touring isn't available in petrol auto form, and that the 3 and CX-3 (which still do) are not the size/configuration he needs but otherwise would hit the mark. The 2.0 N/A petrol may not be as 'spritely' (even I think so, having driven both) as, say, the excellent VAG 1.4 (now 1.5) TSi petrol, it's still a decent enough engine as regards performance and mpg.
I suspect the Toyota CVT route is way he'll end up going - good, dependable, if not exciting transport for the longer term, and perhaps a bit cheaper than buying/running a Honda?
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Before I retired completely I had a part-time job driving students around in both manual and torque convertor auto gearbox vehicles. Some of it involved driving into central London from the south coast and out again in rush hour/s.The London part would be a long, slow, stop-start crawl. I've always enjoyed the man/machine aspect of using manual gearboxes, but they lose out big-time against an auto box in those circumstances. Using an auto box is just so much more relaxing.
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In 30+ years of driving the last 15 have been 100% autos and before then mostly manuals, I've replaced several clutches and a couple of gearboxes but never had an issue with any of my autos - tell a lie, My Gen 2 Honda CRV started to vibrate under load at 110K miles which a change of fluid cured - I part-ex'd it asap incase it was a temporary fix. Who on earth would want to sit in modern traffic mucking around with a clutch pedal? What a pointess waste of life!
I would agree that under-powered autos are a misery (hence most cars when I was young were manual) since my late twenties I've generally gone for at least 3 litre engines so autos are fine when they've got a bit of grunt behind them.
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I'm sure skidpan won't mind if I don't share his (rather generalised) views either.
Have had Torque converter and DSG (still have both in fact) and have had Honda CVT too.
Each to his own and if skidpan doesn't like them then so be it... not a problem. But I don't think others should take skidpan's personal views as being written in stone for all others.
I would make the point though that the i-shift in the earlier Jazz wasn't to my perwsonal liking ( and I think most others share that view) ... and I didn't, personally, like any of the VW ASG, single clutch automated manuals that I've driven either.... but after coming from a DSG to one of those the difference is marked.
Haven't driven any of the latest generation of 8 speed TCs so can't offer a view, but I'd imagine they were more than acceptable judging by the majority of those who have.
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For the OP: It sounds like you don't have much experience of driving cars with Auto-boxes. I'd recommend you hire a car with the technology your are considering and use it on your normal routes for 2-3 days. Tell the hire co. that you must have an auto, even better if the local dealer also hires cars. The underlying technology might be of interest in servicing costs so you would also need to look there.
Though I've never owned an auto long-term, I've usually hired them. The small-engined ones can be horrible - but the hybrid types can be good. Personally, I'll be looking for an auto next time, just because the traffic conditions are just so slow; I'll be looking to Toyota & Kia hybrids, although I've not been near the Kia DCT boxes yet.
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I have driven a few autos over the years all of which cars I could bever afford, Audi A6 2.0 diesel auto, Mercedes E320 estate auto, VW Tiguan 2.0 DSG, Honda CRV 2.2 auto and the latest being my dads Jaguar XJ 2.0 diesel auto.
The nicest was the Jaguar which I borrowed to drive to Wales.
I even owned a semi auto Corsa which a pile if s***e and jerky as hell.
The never driven these autos on my journey to work and subjected them to any stop/start traffic.
This weekend I going to Kia to test drive the Optima Estate auto then to Skoda to test the Octavia estate disel and petrol auto.
Skoda even offer a 3 day test drive so I’ll see what happens.
Thanks for everyones info though, its a true eye opener to a Virgin Auto driver.
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In 30+ years of driving the last 15 have been 100% autos and before then mostly manuals, I've replaced several clutches and a couple of gearboxes but never had an issue with any of my autos - tell a lie, My Gen 2 Honda CRV started to vibrate under load at 110K miles which a change of fluid cured - I part-ex'd it asap incase it was a temporary fix. Who on earth would want to sit in modern traffic mucking around with a clutch pedal? What a pointess waste of life!
I would agree that under-powered autos are a misery (hence most cars when I was young were manual) since my late twenties I've generally gone for at least 3 litre engines so autos are fine when they've got a bit of grunt behind them.
I agree - what's a real shame is that many medium sized family cars and above have in recent years had their petrol engined TC auto options removed, whether going to DSG or CVT types, which have their own issues to some, or none at all unless you go for a diesel, as in the case with Mazda (CX-5 and 6) - whilst the CX-3 has one, and is very nice to drive, its not exactly 'roomy' for families (OK for couples and single people like me), and they have reduced the number of sub-models of the 3 that has it - not available at all in the fastback, petrol or diesel (HJ's review section needs updating to reflect this) only on certain hatch models with Sat Nav.
Its likely that those makes not convinced by DSGs or CVTs removed the autos from their line-ups to get their corporate CO2 levels down across the ranges to avoid EU fines. I personally would've liked the opportunity to be able to buy a Mazda3 2.5 (N/A) fastback (or hatch if not available generally in fastback form) in TC auto form. The larger 2.5 petrol engine is available in the US and Down Under (not sure if mated with an auto though).
Too many people now have to choose a diesel for medium and larger cars if they want an auto box that isn't a (IMO) dodgy DSG or whiny CVT, which is a shame if they don't do longer mainly journeys outside of urban areas, due to the problems with the engines and DPFs gunking up as discussed on other threads. Hopefully this may change as the more 'realistic' EU tests come into force in the coming years and emissions are truer reflections on real-life use, where petrol cars tend to be closer to the existing EU test figures.
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Its likely that those makes not convinced by DSGs or CVTs removed the autos from their line-ups to get their corporate CO2 levels down across the ranges to avoid EU fines.
And that is why we have fragile small turbo-petrol engines and the bodge that is the DCT. That's the problem with targets, they become the objective whether or not they deliver in real life. Ford 'ecoboost' buyers are lucky to get 75% of the official mpg, and some of us would rather have the traditional auto even with a fuel penalty.
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I too am bewildered at what to choose for my next car now that my 1.6 Astra automatic is coming up to 13 years. As a youth I would never have considered owning an automatic but marriage and mortgage found me selling my Mk2 1.6 Escort and buying a Saab 99GL automatic with 102K on the clock for just £300. At a track day at Castle Coombe I met up with Terry Sanger (ex Ford GT40 Le Mans team) who offered to show me how to drive my Saab round the track. This experience and several more track day lessons in the Saab changed my mind. Some years later he did the same in my manual Alfa Romeo. Suffice to say that for more than 30 years now I have listened to motoring enthusiasts berate the automatic and wish they could have the same opportunity as I had. As a single man I spent a my wages on driving in Formula Fords Formula Vees and saloons around a number of tracks but despite this driving an automatic was not intuitive for me and I had to be taught. It is many years since I have been round a track but I still enjoy the occasional moment when an enthusiast follows this old mans bumper into a tight bend in the wrong gear.
Edited by Octane on 08/03/2018 at 13:53
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I too am bewildered at what to choose for my next car now that my 1.6 Astra automatic is coming up to 13 years.
We are similar - our dogsbody auto Focus is 17 going on 18. Top two of our choice list at present (it keeps changing) ......Peugeot 2008 with EAT6 box and Seat Arona with VW's DSG 7 speed - I think they have finally sorted the problems the early DQ boxes had.
Although if the Focus continues to pass its MoTs we'll probably keep it till it breaks as it's now very cheap motoring - and I'm curious to see how long it lasts before something expensive does break!
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