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Bangham is quite right to say that there is always a line somewhere, and for a 30 limit it might as well be 30 as 35, the difficulty in keeping under it is no greater or less.
But. What he is really doing is reducing the speed limit. At the moment it is (subject to it being a safe speed) realistic to drive at 30 in a 30, 40 in a 40, et cetera. You won't be able to do that with any confidence if he gets his way, because it's too easy - almost inevitable - to be doing 1mph faster at certain points, even using cruise control or a speed limiter. You'd really have to drive at e.g. 27, 37, 47, 57, 67 depending on the speed limit.
It also makes the practicalities much more critical especially in areas of frequently changing limits. When I am in say a 40 or 50 and see a 30 sign, I come off the accelerator more or less immediately. That is usually enough to see me passing the sign at or around 30-35 with the speed dropping and I level my speed off at 29/30 where that is safe. No problem, currently. But with the habit the police have of placing mobile cameras at tthe start of 30 limits, that could be points and a fine. So we are now into precise braking adjustments. A glance at the speedo may not be enough, we'll need a good look to make sure.
I don't really know what he's about, unless he's just a bit dim or acting politically. Before effectively changing the speed limits, he should first try enforcing them on the current basis.
The Chief Con of Beds was puffing his chest out a year or two back about zro-tolerance of M1 speed limits. The A421 from MK to the Black Cat is like a Transit race at Silverstone with vans legally limited to 60 flashing past at 80 plus. He still hasn't done anything about that.
Que sera sera.
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Hey manatee... don't knock thsat A421 link from J13 to the Black Cat.
It's the best bit of road in the country (well, possibly apart from the M45?) as far as I'm concerned!!! Hit that @ 08:45 am on a sunny Sunday morning and we find ourselves sitting, drinking coffee in Cambridge before 10:00 :–)
Can't wait for this proposed Oxford to Cambridge "super-highway" to be constructed (hence avoiding/by-passing Buckingham & Bicester to the West and St. Neots to the East), although I doub't it'll occur in my lifetime :–(
Best...
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Hey manatee... don't knock thsat A421 link from J13 to the Black Cat.
It's the best bit of road in the country
Probably not so many vans at 9am on a Sunday!
Best bit is turning north onto the A1 from the right lane, passing all the impatient German saloon drivers that flashed past earlier at an illegal speed queued in the left lane.
We often return in the evening - it's not at all unusual to find stretches of the A428 or A421 closed for roadworks.
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>> Now, Chief Constable Anthony Bangham, as influential as you can get in these matters, wants drivers doing 31 mph prosecuted.
He should be sacked for making callous comments. Typically for this type of comments police gets bad name.
>> The law is the law,
Laws should be interpreted on context.
Edited by movilogo on 01/02/2018 at 15:58
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"Best bit is turning north onto the A1 from the right lane, passing all the impatient German saloon drivers that flashed past earlier at an illegal speed queued in the left lane."
I am surprised and disgusted that anyone else should dare to know about this trick. :-)
(I've been doing it for years - though not so often these days.)
Yes, it's a nice bit of road and a definite improvement on what was there before; I can remember the slog through twisty and narrow roads before the last bit of dual carriageway was built to complete the link to the M1.
Edited by FP on 01/02/2018 at 16:04
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I don’t know what all the fuss is about. There’s a gentleman user of this forum who believes that prosecutions at 31mph in a 30mph limit have been going on for years:
https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/122326/hgv-v-s-car---speed
“I actually got done about 5 years ago doing 31 in a 30 zone and know of people who have been done for doing 1 mile an hour over the speed limit, as it is a limit - full stop.”
I think he mentioned it once before and asked him to expand a little by providing some details but answer came there none. I couldn’t be bothered this time. For what it's worth I have seen huge numbers of drivers prosecuted for speeding but never have I seen one done for travelling at less than the "Limit + 10% +2 mph" threshold.
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........"Sorry, but I'd have more respect for their opinions if they weren't, in my view, a bunch of steaming hypocrites and money-grabbing, politically-correct ladder-climbers who are not interested in serving the public and who waste untold amounst of money..............
I'm with Engineer Andy on this one. I've often questioned why I, as a middle aged, educated, professional have no respect at all for them, In my dealings, I've been told to eff off, wrongly chased with all blues etc, pulled over and immediately told to drive off with no apology plus a number of sarcastic encounters. My son has witnessed a friend very roughly handled and struck for no reason, so has been influenced by that.
So I just file this as more noise, more vacuous prounouncements from jumped up career coppers who really aren't that bright.
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......in my view, a bunch of steaming hypocrites and money-grabbing, politically-correct ladder-climbers who are not interested in serving the public and who waste untold amounst of money..............
I'm with Engineer Andy on this one. I've often questioned why I, as a middle aged, educated, professional have no respect at all for them, In my dealings, I've been told to eff off, wrongly chased with all blues etc, pulled over and immediately told to drive off with no apology plus a number of sarcastic encounters......
Sad to see this sort of invective here. I wonder if bazza has any experience of police forces elsewhere? I also am an educated professional, now retired, who has earned a living on three different continents. Try getting on the wrong side of arab, african or american police! Inevitably there are a few ignorant thugs (as there are in any walk of life) but I have almost always found the British police to be polite, friendly, helpful and professional. They even drove me home once after an accident. I was once let off with a caution after being caught by a hand-held speed gun spotted mid- manoeuvre when overtaking someone in a 30 limit. If they put their minds to it they could make a fortune out of motoring offences and speeding fines. Speed cameras are indicated in advance and they even announce where the peripatetic speed van is going to be!
(Disclaimer - I have no family or friends in the police)
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<< Sad to see this sort of invective here. >>
Like John F, I have no personal axe to grind opposite British police behaviour. As far as I can recall the only time I have been stopped was about 1970 for having a pair of unmatched lamps fitted to the front of my vehicle. I have never been stopped for speeding, but that can only be because no-one was looking. These days I am just glad to have no need to call on their services, knowing how they have to prioritise their activities.
My main grouse is the high-handed way they can now close a road for hours while they go through excessively lengthy procedures after any incident.
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<< Sad to see this sort of invective here. >>
Like John F, I have no personal axe to grind opposite British police behaviour. As far as I can recall the only time I have been stopped was about 1970 for having a pair of unmatched lamps fitted to the front of my vehicle. I have never been stopped for speeding, but that can only be because no-one was looking. These days I am just glad to have no need to call on their services, knowing how they have to prioritise their activities.
My main grouse is the high-handed way they can now close a road for hours while they go through excessively lengthy procedures after any incident.
The public would soon be up in arms if careless/dangerous drivers weren't prosecuted - without evidence they can't be prosecuted.
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Like all professions there are good and bad. I know of several policemen who I wouldn't want to meet in a dark alley.
On the other hand, I had an extremely positive experience a few years ago when we lost a wheel from the caravan at 60mph. The policeman who attended the scene assisted with jacking the caravan, removing wheel nuts from the other wheel to temporarily refix the wheel (as all four nuts had gone missing!) and then escorted us to the nearest Halfords to obtain new wheelnuts. He could have given me a b******ing for obstructing traffic but his approach earned a considerable respect from my young children for the police force (they were in the car at the time).
The loss of teh wheel, by the way, was due to my father in law forgetting to tighten the nuts after doing some repair work for us! I am now obsessive about checking wheel nut torque!
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I was a member of a large motorcycle club in the UK around the time when the fixed speed cameras were springing up like weeds all over the place.
Several of the members were serving police officers, and some were traffic officers.
I heard one of them commenting on the spreading menace of the speed cameras :-
"I don't know what is wrong with the youth of this country - when I was young we would have disabled all these b***** speed cameras."
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>>"I don't know what is wrong with the youth of this country - when I was young we would have disabled all these b***** speed cameras."<<
Brilliant - I was also a member of a motorcycle group and I can well imagine one of the police members saying that. It was in talking to one of these police officers who told me how a rider/driver could be prosecuted for going over the posted limit by any amount. His description was: Imagine you are going past a traffic camera at 31 MPH and another road user goes past (in a different lane) at 37 MPH - and triggers the camera. Both road users would be prosecuted. I didn't test the theory.
In general, I think the handling of speed restrictions in the UK is handled sensibly.
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I wonder if bazza has any experience of police forces elsewhere?....
Well, only from working in Europe and travelling in some other parts of the world. Yes I take your point about that. But my experiences in this country are not as positive as others on here. My neighbour, who is of similar background shares my feelings, so I don't think I'm alone! Pity, as I have several friends in the service, who are very decent folk.
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It would seem that police officers from other forces are not impressed with Mr Bangham's proposals either.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/01/roads-police-o.../
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We regularly hear this sort of tedious nonsense from senior public officials and politicians.
The reasons vary, but they include:
1)Raising their profile for a job application.
2) They are frustrated about the many other matters for which they also have responsibility, but which, due to lack of funding/ lack of will they are unable to address. So they look for something easy that they CAN control, and make great play about promising to deal with it "robustly".
3)They've eaten something that doesn't agree with them.
Given the well documented margin of error in speedometer readings, such a change is utterly impractical. However, we motorists can rest assured that in any case, the police don't have anything like the resources needed to enforce it.
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Given the well documented margin of error in speedometer readings,...
That is a red herring. Whilst I agree that the prosecution of those marginally over the limit is somewhat impractical (which is the very reason the leeway was introduced by the ACPO) vehicle speedometers must not, by law, under record. They can over record by a maximum of 10%. Thus a driver cannot say "my speedo read 30mph but, because of its error, I might have been doing 33mph". He can only say "my speedo read 30mph but because of its error I may only have been doing 27mph". So an erroneous speedo cannot be used to defend marginal speeding.
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The very simple point here is that it is impractical to drive at an absolutely precise speed so to avoid breaking a maximum limit means leaving a margin of error.
Bangham's idea means that instead of the margin being allowed in excess of the limit, the driver must make his own allowance and drive more slowly.
So, many drivers (thse who do not relay on being able to spot fixed and mobile cameras) will simply drive at the limit minus 3-5 mph. Those drivers who currently drive at 40 in a 30 when they think they can get away with it will be incensed by following somebody doing an indicated 27, possibly a real 25mph. I can see a big increase in aggressive driving and road rage if this happens.
If say a 30 limit means society is happy for drivers to do 30 when it is safe to do so, for practical purposes a suitable margin needs to be allowed above it. That margin doesn't have to be the current one, just enough to allow somebody to drive at the limit where safe without fear of being done.
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Given the well documented margin of error in speedometer readings,...
That is a red herring. Whilst I agree that the prosecution of those marginally over the limit is somewhat impractical (which is the very reason the leeway was introduced by the ACPO) vehicle speedometers must not, by law, under record. They can over record by a maximum of 10%. Thus a driver cannot say "my speedo read 30mph but, because of its error, I might have been doing 33mph". He can only say "my speedo read 30mph but because of its error I may only have been doing 27mph". So an erroneous speedo cannot be used to defend marginal speeding.
The indicated speed on both my cars' speedos always reads 2 to 3 mph below the speed indicated by the GPS on the dashcam and/or my phone.
Also, I was issued with an SP30 in 2017 with a speed of 89 mph. The Dashcam was reading 88.
Just saying.
Edited by Finguz on 02/02/2018 at 14:04
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Given the well documented margin of error in speedometer readings,...
That is a red herring. Whilst I agree that the prosecution of those marginally over the limit is somewhat impractical (which is the very reason the leeway was introduced by the ACPO) vehicle speedometers must not, by law, under record. They can over record by a maximum of 10%. Thus a driver cannot say "my speedo read 30mph but, because of its error, I might have been doing 33mph". He can only say "my speedo read 30mph but because of its error I may only have been doing 27mph". So an erroneous speedo cannot be used to defend marginal speeding.
But that was not my point. I wasn't saying that an "erroneous speedo" could be used as a defence, only that an inaccurate reading can and does lull a motorist into thinking he is within the limit when he or she is not. A problem which is manageable with a margin of error of 5mph, but much less so when its just 1 or 2 mph.
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It would seem that police officers from other forces are not impressed with Mr Bangham's proposals either.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/01/roads-police-o.../
This was one of the reasons why I was so concerned (and in response to John F's comments) - its not the coppers on the ground who determine policy, but the politically correct, virtue-signalling Chief Constables. All they do is follow orders, especially if not doing so gets them in trouble.
Like most backroomers, I've come across both good and not-so-good Police officers - I know one personally (I work alongside him as a Director of our Residents Association), and whilst he's a nice guy, he (in my opinion) seems to be very much of the 'modern day copper', i.e. touchy-feely, very risk-averse and only getting involve if a case is 'deemed' serious' (i.e. not bothering about 'petty' crimes - he told me not to bother reporting a neighbour who had been driving their car around for 6 months without a MOT [his other car being in a poor state of repair and off the road]) by his bosses, which is essentially whatever the Chief Constable wants (which often isn't what the public does or is going to bring down crime in the long term - just 'headline grabbing initiatives' to look like they are 'doing something 'to crack down' after be maoned at on TV by 'left-wing activists).
Unfortunately, I think a lack of common sense and SJ/politically-correct attitudes seems to be increasing creeping in to out Police forces. I've seen too often the Police go after 'easy marks' like people doing 5mph over the limit, because they can easily pull them over or send them a fine in the post, but not far more serious crimes which require them to actually do some deterctive work. I do sympathise that they have way too much (often politically-correct) paperwork and tasks to do, but when they often STILL do so a poor job (as previously mentioned above) and disregard many people's concerns over the politically-correct issue of the week, then that, to me, smacks of hypocrisy.
With most jobs, you're expected as part of your duties to come up with innovative new ideas to improve performance (better outcomes and efficiency, as well as job satisfaction), and yet how often do we hear of anyone in the Police doing that? Are they all scared of losing their jobs for saying something, even anonymously? You see this in newpaper letters columns - mostly only retired police offers write in, very few serving ones, or at least raise (genuine) concerns with ideas to the media, and their union now is no better than any of the rest of them in the Public Sector, thinking more and more money is just the answer.
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<< I've seen too often the Police go after 'easy marks' like people doing 5mph over the limit, because they can easily pull them over or send them a fine in the post, but not far more serious crimes which require them to actually do some detective work. >>
Perhaps part of the reason why so many ancient cases of alleged abuse have been chased in the last few years. J Savile began a trend IMHO. Such cases are unlikely to present danger to the officers and are also likely to score points with the public.
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